Your reply peaked my interest so I gave the screenshot another look, it's a patch 3.0 kill. In patch 3.0 everyone was doing give or take 2x as much dps because they had access to WOTLK talents that vastly improved class performance, coupled with content being flat out nerfed by 30% (shorter fight = more dps).
You're effectively talking about a level 70 raid in WOTLK, not TBC.
Probably running on a Pentium 4
World buffs are on a 2 hour cool down. The server does not allow more than a single player to turn in an Onyxia head, Nefarian head or the heart of Hakkar more frequently than every two hours. Further more, i'm not sure if it was possible to stack the song flower buff for the entire raid back then. Darkmoon faire in on a rotation.
The spawn rate of black lotuses is hilariously off on private servers. Using them for raiding was unheard of for a reason, it was simply not feasible to use the flask for anything but the most frustrating roadblocks. Even then, only the players benefiting the most would use it. Such as the main tank, the off-tanks and healers.
When the whole raid uses every consumable in the game, and when everyone shows up with all the consumables for every single raid. The guild can be constructed, from the ground up and the players can pick talents and gear with all of this in mind. When all the stars align, you can kill Naxxramas bosses in less than a minute. You can bring Onyxia down to the floor again before she has the chance to reach her first pathing point. You can kill Loatheb before the cool down debuff ever becomes an issue.
The shorter the boss fight. The more probable that you get statistical anomalies, where your recorded crit rate far exceeds the actual crit rate on your stat card. While it's possible to crit 50/100 hits with a crit rate of 40%, it's far less likely than critting 25/50 hits with an equal crit rate. I've experienced 80% crit rate with aimed shot myself on a boss. Why? Because i only had to cast 5 aimed shots.
In that 928 DPS youtube video, it took 5 minutes and 21 seconds to kill the boss. It's virtually impossible that a fight that long produced significant outliers in crits, hits, dodges and glancing blows.
Lastly, fury warriors were not stacked to the degree they are stacked on private servers. I've gone over it before in other threads. But basically, bloodthirst was only usable after landing a killing blow, it was buffed later in the cycle of classic wow and there was no dual wield talent increasing damage with off-hand. I hold the belief that the top guilds did not realize the value of fury warriors in time, bloodthirst being changed with BWL release and Nefarian (world first) dying AFTER ZG release.
But even if or when the viability of fury was properly realized. It was either not deemed that strong, to warrant rerolls or recruitment as that would entail dropping level 60 characters with full gear sets from the roster. In favor of leveling up and/or gearing up fury warriors in dungeons and raids. Then end up with a DPS on your roster you think will only marginally come out ahead of the established rogues and mages.
Unlike now in 2019, where you can have 10 fury warriors join the guild at level 20 a day or two after classic launches this summer.
According to old wowhead comments Annihilator does stack with Faerie fire and sunder armor - https://www.wowhead.com/item=12798/annihilator#comments World buffs were less accessible in vanilla that is true, but you see other videos from vanilla where people have full world buffs.
How the hell am I grasping on straws when you claim that a patch 3.0 WOTLK Patch dps parse is TBC Sunwell? It's a picture where you went into Sunwell with ridiculously OP broken characters and fought against massively nerfed versions of the bosses. Patch 3.0 is not TBC, expansion pre-patches are not in any way representative of anything at all, those periods of the game are irrelevant circus festivals.
In that patch I was playing an Arms/Fury Axe specialisation dual-wield hybrid, and would have rinsed more than half of your raid with my meme spec.
Probably running on a Pentium 4
you forget how gearing worked in vanilla and tbc right? I remember doing SSC and TK and still having some T3 on me on the first clears. Karazhan was fully done in t3 gear as well. Gearing worked way differently back then. I am pretty certain that people could be doing 1200 dps in different fights and with buffs etc.
I remember an old Patchwerk Video showing a Gnome Fury Warrior pulling off 1250 DPS with all Buffs you could use. Our Fury Warriors did ca. 1k DPS on that fight without World Buffs. As a hunter i averaged 500-600 DPS with my shitty Rhok'Delar and bad Hunter scaling.
The problem when speaking of "normal DPS" is severalfold :
- Most of the time, people take extremes and use it as "average". Someone trying to break his record by using all consummable and having a whole raid tailored to maxxing his number is not "normal" or "average". Even if we ignore these specific cases, it's still usually the top players who are used as "average". Your whole raid did about 700 dps per player, but one of them did 1100 dps ? You can bet that everyone will say "well, you can do 1100 dps on average". Instead of, you know, maybe 800-900 if we discount healer/tanks.
- Vanilla was pretty bad for DPS add-on. Even when I last played (in Legion), there was serious differences between different add-ons, and that's with years of fine-tuning and the game offereing MUCH more informations through hooks. During Vanilla, it was much worse, so any add-on data should be taken with a big grain of salt.
- DPS is a very misleading value, and it first and foremost depends on how the add-on makes its calculation (is it total damage divided by the total time spent in fight ? Is it the one fifth of the total damage made during the last five seconds ? Is the calculation reset if you spend several seconds without doing damage ?).
- Often, the screenshot with the number "happens" to be taken in the middle of the fight. Hint : that's because the guy just used all his CD and consummable and so on, so is at the peak of his DPS, and waiting until the end of the fight would lower it considerably.
So yeah, throwing numbers around makes me dubious. I suppose you could take the claim of most people, halve them, and be about what an actual real average would be ?
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You're the one grasping at straws, mate. Comparing a 3.0 parse to the rest of TBC is being stupid at best, pure bad faith at worse.
This thread and comments about Naxx reminded me of this video from Patchwerk:
Vanilla had Worldbuffs. TBC didnt. Worldbuffs stacked makes a HUGE difference.
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Fury warrior by the name of Lilos did 1250dps on patchwerk in vanilla and in BIS gear along with pretty heavy consumable and wbuff stacked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
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JuJus arent a worldbuff. They are regular raid consumables.
“Listen... Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.” – Dennis
Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK
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Maybe nobody did them in 2005 but people will do those and FAR more in 2019 (and probably did in 2006). I don't think we're allowed to link PServer parses but you'll definitely see many thousand DPS on those.
People have distilled this down to an art now. MC and BWL are cleared in about 20 minutes each. Even in AQ40 many bosses live less than 1 minute so having ridiculous DPS parses is possible.
I don't expect things to be quite so quick on Classic but I'll still expect close to 2000 dps parses in AQ40 eventually.
I think the problem with this thread is that there isn't really any specific measurement criteria...what constitutes consistent DPS when many fights last less than 1 minute anyway? What gear level? What boss, what raid, target dummy, raid buffed, entirely solo vs a dummy? So many variables
I always laugh when someone effectively asserts that Top 100-guild Vanilla players couldn't hold a candle to [redacted] denizens. You really think the top Rogue or Warrior from <Risen> of Alleria didn't know what he was doing? BiS was known to those who were engaged in top end raiding. That's not new. So was farming for consumable buffs. Yes things have changed, but for every Wolfshead helm discovery there are two or more errors that [redacted] got wrong. Onyxia head buff? Not gonna happen the way PS players are used to. Flasking? Good luck affording it when Black Lotus has a spawn rate orders of magnitude lower. They've admitted that armor values are guessed. Boss ability functionality is a complete crap shoot, etc.
Those DPS numbers aren't occurring under real Vanilla conditions, and it shows.
Last edited by Sooba; 2019-04-08 at 03:09 PM.
Yet on the twin emperor world first video you can see some frost mage for example.
Kungen (gm of the guild that got kt world first) even said they didn't think about using dire maul worlds buffs for raids back then.
And BIS gear were known back then ? Theory crafter still debate about some piece even today. About every bis list i see have somewhat changed in the last few years.
I answered to your specific statement that: "1200 in Vanilla? No one did 1200 DPS in Vanilla."
Which was infact incorrect. I have no doubt, that with the release of classic this feat will be reproduced many times over by a great many players. That all being said, 1200dps might not become the new "normal average dps" but it will not be unheard of.
EDIT: When I raided Sunwell I believe my brutallus record as fury was around 2.5k dps.
Last edited by Storfan; 2019-04-08 at 05:03 PM.
“Listen... Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.” – Dennis