Pokemon, Part 2

[infinitemeridian]

I'm trying to be objective on the issue and really, I **am** sympathetic to GF. It's really not their fault, it's more TPC's fault since they demand yearly games in the series. GF /= Pokemon - they can only work within the budget and timeframe that TPC company wants, and since they're greedy as fuck and need to ensure new merch every year, GF doesn't get the time or resources it needs to expand it's studio or do things like include all other pokemon.

Not to say GF is an amazing developer - they're not, but it's not completely their fault and largely the result of greed on behalf of TPC.

[Immitis]

Because GameFreak is lazy. They run a billion dollar franchise and have the resources of Nintendo at their beck and call, and yet rather than calling upon Nintendo's resources or using their money to expand their team, they'd rather just churn out a subpar product and tell us a bold face lie about developing Pokemon models with "higher fidelity with high quality animations"... when we know (confirmed from the rips) that they're using the exact same models as in Gen 6 and 7.

i wouldnt say this is about being lazy, they purposefully cut them and then outright lied about the reasoning.

[Zantos]

Less then 100 new pokemon. Only about 320 from other regions out of 800+. Yup, this game is going to cause a massive backlash. Even if they sell, I expect a lot of wtf moments from people. Even more so when they actively see they cannot transfer their favorites into the game. People will start to care more when they see what's going on instead of reading it online or avoiding spoilers

[Immitis]

I'm trying to be objective on the issue and really, I **am** sympathetic to GF. It's really not their fault, it's more TPC's fault since they demand yearly games in the series. GF /= Pokemon - they can only work within the budget and timeframe that TPC company wants, and since they're greedy as fuck and need to ensure new merch every year, GF doesn't get the time or resources it needs to expand it's studio or do things like include all other pokemon.

Not to say GF is an amazing developer - they're not, but it's not completely their fault and largely the result of greed on behalf of TPC.

I dont think this had anything to do with deadlines. they keep talking about how they "knew they had to do it eventually"

they didnt do anything to any of the models. theyre using the same ones from the 3ds games, theres no logical reason for them to have cut them. they didnt need to do anything to them to include them in sword and shield they just decided not to.

and i think thats what infuriates people the most, its certainly what makes me the most upset about it.

if we had gotten brand new models for the 400 in this game then i wouldnt be anywhere near as disappointed in the dexit controversy. if this game actually LOOKED like a switch game and wasnt clearly reusing as many assets as possible then it would actually make sense.

[infinitemeridian]

I dont think this had anything to do with deadlines. they keep talking about how they "knew they had to do it eventually"

they didnt do anything to any of the models. theyre using the same ones from the 3ds games, theres no logical reason for them to have cut them. they didnt need to do anything to them to include them in sword and shield they just decided not to.

and i think thats what infuriates people the most, its certainly what makes me the most upset about it.

if we had gotten brand new models for the 400 in this game then i wouldnt be anywhere near as disappointed in the dexit controversy. if this game actually LOOKED like a switch game and wasnt clearly reusing as many assets as possible then it would actually make sense.

Yes, their reasoning is bad for right now. But they are correct in that down the road, they would have to redo all the models and by then there could be 2000 pokemon.

It is a legit issue they face - but with TPC breathing down their necks to have games out yearly since most of their revenue is from merchandise, they can never take the time to fully address it.

In a sense, they're ripping the bandaid off now - did they handle it gracefully? No, probably not, but it was something that would've had to come off at some point unless their is a massive shake up at TPC.

[Well]

Yes, their reasoning is bad for right now. But they are correct in that down the road, they would have to redo all the models and by then there could be 2000 pokemon.

It is a legit issue they face - but with TPC breathing down their necks to have games out yearly since most of their revenue is from merchandise, they can never take the time to fully address it.

In a sense, they're ripping the bandaid off now - did they handle it gracefully? No, probably not, but it was something that would've had to come off at some point unless their is a massive shake up at TPC.

No, just freaking no, I am sorry.

You're the damn >POKEMON< company. It does not matter if YOU have released 2 thousand Pokemon in your 50 years of work. If the POKEMON company cannot include THEIR Pokemon in THEIR games, for no reason whatsoever, they should stop being the Pokemon company. This is beyond absurd. It is an absolute travesty what has happened with these games, with other game developers, designers and engineers making videos on how easy it is to simply transfer the models they ALREADY have from freaking X and Y.

They made those high polygon models because they KNEW they would go on the switch. It is simply treacherous to their loyal fanbase what they did. A marketing trick to force people to buy the next games in order for them to be allowed to play with Pokemon they've kept since their childhood.

Not to mention the horrific FPS rate S&S seem to sport, the complete lack of new move animations. Hell, even the "new" rival has the animations of Hau. This is not a Switch game, but rather a DS game with some graphical, expired topping that falls off the damn sweet the moment you attempt to inspect anything.

I want to play the new pokemon games like no one else, but their creator is simply not allowing me to do so, less I simply decide I have no self-dignity. They should honestly be ashamed, not only for these choices, but for simply ignoring and straight up lying to their more than a decade long customers and fans. Lying not only for the reasons for as to why they went with the Dexit, but also for Pokebank, its purpose and features (i.e. being able to transfer all of your pokemon to all future games).

They are simply disgusting.

[Zantos]

Yes, their reasoning is bad for right now. But they are correct in that down the road, they would have to redo all the models and by then there could be 2000 pokemon.

It is a legit issue they face - but with TPC breathing down their necks to have games out yearly since most of their revenue is from merchandise, they can never take the time to fully address it.

In a sense, they're ripping the bandaid off now - did they handle it gracefully? No, probably not, but it was something that would've had to come off at some point unless their is a massive shake up at TPC.

Problem is, they aren't using new models. Sure, they have a lot to update, but they could honestly have done that with a handful each game. There is no reason to just deny us so many pokemon. Especially when the new pokedex seems to have less then 100 new pokemon in general.

[Yunru]

Just a interesting thing i found:
It looks like Gamefreak and Masuda might be in trouble - at least on the Japanese side. 2chan are attempting to take Masuda to court over the misrepresentation of the game. When Masuda announced the dex cut, he only did so on the English speaking channels. No such announcement was made in japan. His apology was also made to only English speaking fans as well. Once again, Japan never saw this. The latest trailer (featuring every generational Pokémon was made specifically for Japan). So for those unaware, they are buying a game under false pretences. Essentially, unless a Pokémon fan went into English speaking channels and sought out the national dex comments, there was no way for them to know it happened in the first place. Therefore, the game is false advertising.

[Lahis]

Just a interesting thing i found:
It looks like Gamefreak and Masuda might be in trouble - at least on the Japanese side. 2chan are attempting to take Masuda to court over the misrepresentation of the game. When Masuda announced the dex cut, he only did so on the English speaking channels. No such announcement was made in japan. His apology was also made to only English speaking fans as well. Once again, Japan never saw this. The latest trailer (featuring every generational Pokémon was made specifically for Japan). So for those unaware, they are buying a game under false pretences. Essentially, unless a Pokémon fan went into English speaking channels and sought out the national dex comments, there was no way for them to know it happened in the first place. Therefore, the game is false advertising.

Masuda literally just retweeted a fan's tweet that said "Me and Bayleef are eagerly waiting for Sword and Shield".

There are so many people in for a rude awakening.

[infinitemeridian]

No, just freaking no, I am sorry.

You're the damn >POKEMON< company. It does not matter if YOU have released 2 thousand Pokemon in your 50 years of work. If the POKEMON company cannot include THEIR Pokemon in THEIR games, for no reason whatsoever, they should stop being the Pokemon company. This is beyond absurd. It is an absolute travesty what has happened with these games, with other game developers, designers and engineers making videos on how easy it is to simply transfer the models they ALREADY have from freaking X and Y.

They made those high polygon models because they KNEW they would go on the switch. It is simply treacherous to their loyal fanbase what they did. A marketing trick to force people to buy the next games in order for them to be allowed to play with Pokemon they've kept since their childhood.

Not to mention the horrific FPS rate S&S seem to sport, the complete lack of new move animations. Hell, even the "new" rival has the animations of Hau. This is not a Switch game, but rather a DS game with some graphical, expired topping that falls off the damn sweet the moment you attempt to inspect anything.

I want to play the new pokemon games like no one else, but their creator is simply not allowing me to do so, less I simply decide I have no self-dignity. They should honestly be ashamed, not only for these choices, but for simply ignoring and straight up lying to their more than a decade long customers and fans. Lying not only for the reasons for as to why they went with the Dexit, but also for Pokebank, its purpose and features (i.e. being able to transfer all of your pokemon to all future games).

They are simply disgusting.

Again, blame TPC, not GF / Masuda for MOST of the issues. Re-using animations is not that big of a deal, games do it all the time. Yes, it sucks in lieu of the supposed enhanced ones we were supposed to get, but I honestly don't give two shits about the human characters in these games. Also, idk what horrible frame rate you're referring to, one of the best things about these games it seems is the performance / frame rate. I really hated SuMo's performance, but this seems buttery smooth for the most part.

Masuda can only work within the timeframe / budget that TPC provides. In an ideal world, yes, having every pokemon in every game should be the bare minimum.

And again, I'm not talking about the Switch - I'm talking about future generations. They WILL have to redo all the models at some point - they can't just rely on the 3DS ones for all time, even though maybe they could have for the Switch. Upscaling the 3DS models is not as easy as you would think anyways, so I don't really see how that is an excuse.

It's a dumb decision and significantly hurts these games especially because of all the other problems they have, but the issue is that GF is not given enough time / resources to handle the issue in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

Just a interesting thing i found:
It looks like Gamefreak and Masuda might be in trouble - at least on the Japanese side. 2chan are attempting to take Masuda to court over the misrepresentation of the game. When Masuda announced the dex cut, he only did so on the English speaking channels. No such announcement was made in japan. His apology was also made to only English speaking fans as well. Once again, Japan never saw this. The latest trailer (featuring every generational Pokémon was made specifically for Japan). So for those unaware, they are buying a game under false pretences. Essentially, unless a Pokémon fan went into English speaking channels and sought out the national dex comments, there was no way for them to know it happened in the first place. Therefore, the game is false advertising.

Laughable at best, this is not going to go anywhere.

[Immitis]

Just a interesting thing i found:
It looks like Gamefreak and Masuda might be in trouble - at least on the Japanese side. 2chan are attempting to take Masuda to court over the misrepresentation of the game. When Masuda announced the dex cut, he only did so on the English speaking channels. No such announcement was made in japan. His apology was also made to only English speaking fans as well. Once again, Japan never saw this. The latest trailer (featuring every generational Pokémon was made specifically for Japan). So for those unaware, they are buying a game under false pretences. Essentially, unless a Pokémon fan went into English speaking channels and sought out the national dex comments, there was no way for them to know it happened in the first place. Therefore, the game is false advertising.

this has been simmering for a while in japan. once the news filtered down to them every piece of marketing theyve put out has had lots of comments of japanese fans demanding they reveal which pokemon are cut and theyve been radio silent. they still havent actually announced or mentioned to anyone in japan that the dex cut is even happening. theyve been trying to pretend like everythings as normal and hoping they buy the game and get over it before it blows up in their face

- - - Updated - - -

Again, blame TPC, not GF / Masuda for MOST of the issues. Re-using animations is not that big of a deal, games do it all the time. Yes, it sucks in lieu of the supposed enhanced ones we were supposed to get, but I honestly don't give two shits about the human characters in these games.

Masuda can only work within the timeframe / budget that TPC provides. In an ideal world, yes, having every pokemon in every game should be the bare minimum.

And again, I'm not talking about the Switch - I'm talking about future generations. They WILL have to redo all the models at some point - they can't just rely on the 3DS ones for all time, even though maybe they could have for the Switch. Upscaling the 3DS models is not as easy as you would think anyways, so I don't really see how that is an excuse.

It's a dumb decision and significantly hurts these games especially because of all the other problems they have, but the issue is that GF is not given enough time / resources to handle the issue in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -



Laughable at best, this is not going to go anywhere.

the thing is that the 3ds models are actually pretty future proof. theyre all high rez and have alot of animations that are never even used in the games (all those walking/running animations in lets go? those are from sun and moon and exist for EVERY pokemon not just the ones in lets go) if you take the 3ds games in an emulator you will see that the models are actually very high quality its the 3ds itself putting them in 240p that makes them look blurry and probably the reason the games run like shit on 3ds.

they probably wouldnt have needed to touch them at all for a very long time.

were literally getting a 3ds game with less pokemon for no reason.

yes they wouldve had to do this eventually, however that wouldve probably been on the switch 2, if they keep the yearly release schedule it wouldve been at least a few generations from now.

like i said the main reason people are upset probably isnt the cut itself, its the lying and the fact that theres just no reason to cut them now.

lets put this in blizzard terms since were on mmochampion.

imagine for shadowlands blizzard cut half the races in the game, said the reason was so they could put more art time into the original races, except imagine shadowlands comes out and nothing has changed. theyre all exactly the same.

like i said in my previous post i wouldve been a lot less angry if they actually did something.

those models from the 3ds game are already high rez, already have walking animations,



it almost seems malicious in the way that theyre cutting features. i wouldnt be surprised if they brought back the rest of the pokemon in pokemon gun or gen 4 remakes and then tried to spin it as them putting in more work.

the main problem isnt the feature cuts themselves. its the fact theyre obviously putting in the bare minimum.

why cut following pokemon? the tech is all there, the animations are all there, why remove a feature people loved?

why make the exp share on permanently with no way to turn it off at all?

anytime any interviewer brings up things the community wants or dislikes masuda just writes it off. the reason he gave for removing the battle frontier in the oras remakes was literally that "phone games are too popular and no one wants a challenging game like that"

the ceo of the pokemon company tried to say the switch would fail.

the vibe theyre giving off is that they just dont care.

[Well]

Again, blame TPC, not GF / Masuda for MOST of the issues. Re-using animations is not that big of a deal, games do it all the time. Yes, it sucks in lieu of the supposed enhanced ones we were supposed to get, but I honestly don't give two shits about the human characters in these games. Also, idk what horrible frame rate you're referring to, one of the best things about these games it seems is the performance / frame rate. I really hated SuMo's performance, but this seems buttery smooth for the most part.

Masuda can only work within the timeframe / budget that TPC provides. In an ideal world, yes, having every pokemon in every game should be the bare minimum.

And again, I'm not talking about the Switch - I'm talking about future generations. They WILL have to redo all the models at some point - they can't just rely on the 3DS ones for all time, even though maybe they could have for the Switch. Upscaling the 3DS models is not as easy as you would think anyways, so I don't really see how that is an excuse.

It's a dumb decision and significantly hurts these games especially because of all the other problems they have, but the issue is that GF is not given enough time / resources to handle the issue in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -



Laughable at best, this is not going to go anywhere.

My dude, I'm afraid you have no idea what has been going on. Read carefully:

The bare minimum as you put it has been a given for 20 years now.

They pull a non-existent excuse that is later revealed to be a blatant lie to justify their out of the blue decision to limit the pokemon that can physically be in the next, big, main-series, platform-jumping game that also brings the new generation.

The out of the blue decision is out of the blue exactly because there does not seem to be ANY reason for as to why they would do something like this. Who in their right mind would have EVER thought to literally scrap more than half of the entirety of the pokedex in a POKEMON game? It is out of the blue because the models and the animations are there from literally 2014, five years since.

I will remind you here something what most people simply choose to ignore for some damn reason. They've not said that they will be bringing all of the other pokemon back some day, but rather that they've decided that no other Pokemon game will feature all of the pokemon in the future. They are rotating them. For NO reason, other than that "they decided so".

On top of that, they simply ignore their community, cut mega-evos, ignore years of pleads for certain fan-favourites (I am not from those crowds, but if I was I would be even more dissapointed and rightfully angry) and for the cherry, they transition to the switch by literally copying over animations for even the HUMANS, for which only 6-10 unique models exist in the game that deserve their own animations. Yet, even for your own rival, they literally copied Hau's. The pokemon animations on the other hand are still left to be the same as in Ruby & Sapphire (note, NOT Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire) in some cases like Double Kick.

I do not care about how much TPC is to blame. They're LITERALLY the most successful company in the world, weilding the most successful and profitable franchise in the world. They must be honest and potent enough to abide to what their now deceased symbol has advocated on for years:

A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed is bad for ever. -Shigeru Miyamoto

If you're telling me that any human being with half a brain should be okay and fine with them pulling such bullshit out of nowhere, relying on excuses that are, upon the smallest amount of inspection, simply not true while at the same time they literally make more money than they can count, I have no words. And yes, the frame rate is simply inexcusable: 30 FPS with nothing going on is horrible for the switch. It buffles my mind and I wish to know how have they managed such a low FPS rate in such a simple bare-bones game like the Pokemon franchise.

You're also talking about them having to re-do the models at some point in the future, while at the same time clearly stating that they could (as they already had planned, by explicitly doing it) have had those models ready for the Switch since X or Y. That part just does not make sense.

What I want to say is essentially this: there's absolutely no excuse. For anything. They are literally the richest franchise on Earth, they can do whatever they want and yet they fail so laughably. They can't even produce a game that holds 60 FPS in a console as powerful as the Switch. The company should be ashamed of what it is doing to its franchise.

[Adramalech]

We now live in a timeline where Pokemon Go has, or will soon have, a bigger variety of Pokemon than the latest Pokemon generation.

For reference, Go just started releasing some Unova pokemon recently, and is still missing a few from Sinnoh (Rotom, Shaymin, Arceus, possibly more that I'm forgetting).

We knew things were bad, but I'm still shocked at how much worse it turned out to be.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

@Syegfryed's signature is more relevant than ever.

[Lycanroc]

You forgot a big point, Well.

GF also neglected to tell their Japanese audience about the dex cut and they STILL haven't. Some of them got the news through American websites and sent a politely-worded letter (and I mean politely worded) containing their concerns. GF did not respond.

If it was for balance reasons and they said they were cutting a lot of Pokemon that ALWAYS show up in competitions, why not just ban those Pokemon altogether in the competitive scene instead of saying nobody can have them? A lot of the removed mons ARE the heavily overused Pokemon you see in teams ; Talonflame, Metagross, Salamence, Garchomp, Greninja, Scizor, and some of the more popular competitive Pokemon are not in. I get that balancing nearly 900 Pokemon is actually pretty difficult and maybe now we'll see some more varied teams, but removing 60% of the dex was not the way to do it. Could've even said "only Pokemon IN the Galar dex can be used in Competitions".

Also some of the omissions don't even make sense. Why is Lilipup not in? It's a fucking Yorkie and a Scottie dog, two breeds FROM the UK. Also Houndoom and Lycanroc aren't in, which are both missed opportunities. There are lots of legends about black dogs in the UK and Houndoom is a perfect fit, and an American Werewolf in London? C'mon. Some of these inclusions write themselves. Other confusing omissions are ; Murkrow and Misdreavus (for obvious reasons), Fletchling (why are there Fletchling weathervanes??? BUT NO FLETCHLING?), Taillow, Rattata, Sentret, Gogoat, SPHEAL, and Pidgey. I'm sure there's more absolutely bonkers omissions besides those, but those are the most confusing I could think of atm.

[Adramalech]

If it was for balance reasons and they said they were cutting a lot of Pokemon that ALWAYS show up in competitions, why not just ban those Pokemon altogether in the competitive scene instead of saying nobody can have them? A lot of the removed mons ARE the heavily overused Pokemon you see in teams ; Talonflame, Metagross, Salamence, Garchomp, Greninja, Scizor, and some of the more popular competitive Pokemon are not in. I get that balancing nearly 900 Pokemon is actually pretty difficult and maybe now we'll see some more varied teams, but removing 60% of the dex was not the way to do it. Could've even said "only Pokemon IN the Galar dex can be used in Competitions".

Talonflame hasn't been relevant since they "killed" Gale Wings, but you're correct in everything else you said.

Anyway, they remove some heavily used Pokemon (both in the official doubles format, and in Smogon's multiple tiers), while at the same time, leaving gigantic threats like Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and others free to terrorize the game with pokemon far less capable of dealing with them. Without Z-moves giving you that huge nuke, that situation becomes even worse. Maybe Max moves will be strong enough to do so, but considering Dynamax boosts HP, the opponent can just do the same thing and stop you.

It's still a bit early to talk balance since we don't know the typings of many of the new Pokemon, their abilities, stats, any new moves, or even if any old Pokemon received any stat or ability changes (Drizzle Pelipper was a huge change last gen, for example). But I don't see things going in a good direction. And even if it does improve competitive play, I don't think it's worth the cost of 60%+ of the Pokedex in exchange.


Also on the topic of Smogon... watch Ubers not being a tier again. It probably won't have enough Pokemon to function as a tier anymore. Depending on how powerful Zamazenta and Zacien are (read: if they suffer from Kyurem-Blackitis), it might even be a barren wasteland.

[Lycanroc]

Talonflame hasn't been relevant since they "killed" Gale Wings, but you're correct in everything else you said.

Anyway, they remove some heavily used Pokemon (both in the official doubles format, and in Smogon's multiple tiers), while at the same time, leaving gigantic threats like Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and others free to terrorize the game with pokemon far less capable of dealing with them. Without Z-moves giving you that huge nuke, that situation becomes even worse. Maybe Max moves will be strong enough to do so, but considering Dynamax boosts HP, the opponent can just do the same thing and stop you.

It's still a bit early to talk balance since we don't know the typings of many of the new Pokemon, their abilities, stats, any new moves, or even if any old Pokemon received any stat or ability changes (Drizzle Pelipper was a huge change last gen, for example). But I don't see things going in a good direction. And even if it does improve competitive play, I don't think it's worth the cost of 60%+ of the Pokedex in exchange.


Also on the topic of Smogon... watch Ubers not being a tier again. It probably won't have enough Pokemon to function as a tier anymore. Depending on how powerful Zamazenta and Zacien are, it might even be a barren wasteland.

Yeah, I was aware they killed Talonflame last gen with the huge nerf. But considering GF had to nerf it in the first place, they probably already saw it as a "problem mon". Which makes me unhappy because I loved Talonflame's design.

We do know the typings of a lot of the new mons, but not all abilities or new moves. Looks like a lot of monotypes this go around. Not really sure WHY they decided to go this direction, but the amount of monotypes is kind of shocking.

Link to the dex leak of all new Pokemon and typings: [SPOILER!!!] https://i.redd.it/1lzh7wmuzww31.png

[Adramalech]

Some kind anons on 4chan have been compiling stats of new pokemon based on Showdown's calculator. At the very least, some new pokemon are looking really solid in terms of stats. I'm posting from my phone right now so it's a pain to add spoiler tags for those of you who want to avoid spoilers, but do check /vp/ if you don't mind killing a few of your brain cells from the not so helpful people around there.

[Yunru]

[Adramalech]

This is so sad. They have some legitimately good shit in these games that have been long overdue, but the dex cut sours it all.

Many new pokemon have fantastic stat distributions, good movepools, and decent abilities. Unlike Alola, many new pokemon have coherent stats and not everything is slow as sin.

Apparently there is a new type of item called a Technical Record. They work like TMs, but are 1 time use. You can buy more of them with a currency obtained in the Wild Area. They look like a replacement for move tutors, and seem to have a greater variety of moves. For example, there are TRs for Dragon Dance (and Garchomp isn't in the game) and Power Gem. There are reports of 100 TMs and 100 TRs.

There is apparently an herb to change natures. No idea how that works. Bottle Caps are still a thing. You basically need 0 breeding outside of egg moves or to get a different ability or for Hidden Power.

Lots of focus on nerfing redirectional stuff in Doubles. Moves and abilities that ignore stuff like Follow Me and Storm Drain.

I should feel happy about these changes, but... Yeah...

I guess maybe competitive might improve in this generation after all. But again: at what cost. This could all be accomplished by just imposing bans on what they want to see gone in the official format too...