Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Skroe]

The specific drug I’m talking about taxpayers paid 452mn it went to Bayer a cancer drug.

Okay that's one drug. The government has independent funding pathways to fund anti-Cancer drugs as part of the decades old "War on Cancer". It's a similar thing with HIV research. More recently, the Pentagon was funding development and deployment of drugs to combat germs likely to be used in biological attacks. This distinction of funding pathways is important. Why? Because you should think of the money in a budget as a finite resource that grows at a few percent a year. When one thing gets funded, something else doesn't get funded. So the distinction of what money pot the funding comes from is hugely significant to the argument. It may be government funding, but it may not be NIH. That matters because it dictates the structure of the money transfer.

A good spacey-example is that the EELV Rocket program of the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s that formed the basis of NASA's space launch ability from 1998-2018 was funded by the Air Force (NASA didn't like the very existence of the program). It was technically a defense project and the rockets were designed by a government-industry team and built in a government-owned facility leased to private industry. The rockets were bought by taxpayers and operated by the private company, but launched from a publicly owned ability. Public-private partnerships are tricky to unravel.

Now let's see the link that says that is the normal for most / all drugs. It is essential to the case you're attempting to make and I would like to see it.

[Smitzelplix]

Please stop trolling me with this TJ horseshit.

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I agree...no doubt that Republicans have politicized it as well. But it doesn't get much slimier than Pelosi trying to sneak loopholes to the Hyde Amendment into the Coronavirus emergency bill.

Politifact: No, Pelosi wasn’t caught trying to add abortion funding into coronavirus bill. What are your sources that Pelosi tried to sneak loopholes to the Hyde Amendment into the Coronavirus emergency bill? Because, it seems you might have been mislead there.

[Themius]

Okay that's one drug. The government has independent funding pathways to fund anti-Cancer drugs as part of the decades old "War on Cancer". It's a similar thing with HIV research. More recently, the Pentagon was funding development and deployment of drugs to combat germs likely to be used in biological attacks. This distinction of funding pathways is important. Why? Because you should think of the money in a budget as a finite resource that grows at a few percent a year. When one thing gets funded, something else doesn't get funded. So the distinction of what money pot the funding comes from is hugely significant to the argument. It may be government funding, but it may not be NIH. That matters because it dictates the structure of the money transfer.

A good spacey-example is that the EELV Rocket program of the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s that formed the basis of NASA's space launch ability from 1998-2018 was funded by the Air Force (NASA didn't like the very existence of the program). It was technically a defense project and the rockets were designed by a government-industry team and built in a government-owned facility leased to private industry. The rockets were bought by taxpayers and operated by the private company, but launched from a publicly owned ability. Public-private partnerships are tricky to unravel.

Now let's see the link that says that is the normal for most / all drugs. It is essential to the case you're attempting to make and I would like to see it.

The case I am making is.

Drugs developed with taxpayer funds involved should be to the benefit of the taxpayers.

There is another case where the government spent 200mn and the pharma spent iirc about the same. Went on to do very well with the VA making up a ridiculous amount of their profits buying 4K per pill drugs. Taken daily.

The case I’m making which is fact just by virtue of what we have seen.

Every approved from 2010-2016 drug benefits from taxpayer funding. About 100bn of taxpayer funding.

These new drugs that were funded partially by the government aren’t sold back to the government at a discount. There isn’t profit sharing to any tangible effect as the royalties are far lower than the cost the government pays to buy back expensive drugs. People aren’t benefiting from low cost drugs. So we spent 16.7bn a year in research plus many billions more purchasing back drugs. To prop up an industry that pulls in profits of tremendous size.

[Skroe]

Every approved from 2010-2016 drug benefits from taxpayer funding. About 100bn of taxpayer funding.

I want to see your primary sources for this. Please link them now. This is the third time I've asked.

[Themius]

I want to see your primary sources for this. Please link them now. This is the third time I've asked.

I literally posted the link already... on the previous page.

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/10/2329

This report shows that NIH funding contributed to published research associated with every one of the 210 new drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration from 2010–2016. Collectively, this research involved >200,000 years of grant funding totaling more than $100 billion. The analysis shows that >90% of this funding represents basic research related to the biological targets for drug action rather than the drugs themselves. The role of NIH funding thus complements industry research and development, which focuses predominantly on applied research. This work underscores the breath and significance of public investment in the development of new therapeutics and the risk that reduced research funding would slow the pipeline for treating morbid disease.

The largest expenditure by the way for Pharma companies IS PURELY MARKETING not the actual fucking research for the bloody drug, but how to sell the damn thing.

Johnson and Johnson benefits from NIH Funding and they also spend almost $18bn on marketing and about $8bn on RD.

What's so iffy about this is that many companies roll in things that aren't fucking R&D into R&D anyway...

When you take into account that marketing makes up a bulk for R&D costs for too many companies you must then ask... well really what percentage of a particular drug is the company spending actually developing and searching and not just selling it compared to the government?

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I believe the link that he's missing is that only, what.. 5% of drugs make it from promising theoretical stages to new drug application? Probably lower as things have gotten that much more complicated. And the cost of funding a university teams project is miniscule compared to phase 3 trials for drugs used for massive population pools. The company embraces active risks by going into the development risk, and the way things have shaken out is that you use one drugs success to push the next 20 through the pipeline as far as they can go.

False.

That is for oncology drugs only. Not all drugs, unless all drugs are now oncology drugs.

[Kasierith]

I literally posted the link already... on the previous page.

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/10/2329



The largest expenditure by the way for Pharma companies IS PURELY MARKETING not the actual fucking research for the bloody drug, but how to sell the damn thing.

Johnson and Johnson benefits from NIH Funding and they also spend almost $18bn on marketing and about $8bn on RD.

What's so iffy about this is that many companies roll in things that aren't fucking R&D into R&D anyway...

When you take into account that marketing makes up a bulk for R&D costs for too many companies you must then ask... well really what percentage of a particular drug is the company spending actually developing and searching and not just selling it compared to the government?

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False.

That is for oncology drugs only. Not all drugs, unless all drugs are now oncology drugs.

Oncology is not the only field struggling to push new boundaries. In fact, it's not even the most strenuous. That would be novel antibiotic research and development. Turns out it is really, really hard to find chemicals selective for foreign bacteria that don't have a mechanism already shut down by the really nasty bugs like the ESBLs. Regardless of specific field, though, most of the low hanging fruit in drug development has been taken already. Every year more and more novel drugs are complicated highly selective protein structures, which are immensely taxing on R&D compared to their simple oral counterparts.

[Orbitus]

Sure glad the one leading the democrats has a plan that would still leave millions without healthcare, because what possible benefit could there be to ensuring everyone gets treatment?


Biden Rally's are violent. Acting like a Trump rally besides the fact there is about are much smaller than Bernie or Trump rally.

While what the video was portraying isn't that great, the moron that posted the video is a fucking retard. It is a Qanon dipshit. Needs to be shut down.

[d00mGuArD]

Well lets see, a couple hundred per month versus lets say 10 or 20 dollars more in taxes....... huh, I know my girl brain isn't good at math but for some reason I think one is higher than the other.

Well then the program will simply not have enough support from the voters. voters don't do math. they hear more taxes, they vote for the other guy.
Anything you want to do, must be done with same or less taxes, or simply they will vote for biden or whomever.

But the tax concern is part of the same propaganda mess, basically because nuance is hard. So people just hear "taxes will raise" and then can't process the second half of "but your net costs will go way down".

Yeah most voters want simple messages. 3-4 words max. And most don't want to hear anything about more taxes.
I think that is why such programs like M4A have been failing for... forever.

[Dacien]

The fact that Biden thinks Kamala Harris would make a great Supreme Court Justice worries me a lot. That's a very Trumpy thing to say.

[Theodarzna]

Well then the program will simply not have enough support from the voters. voters don't do math. they hear more taxes, they vote for the other guy.
Anything you want to do, must be done with same or less taxes, or simply they will vote for biden or whomever.

Then I won't vote for Biden, and I recommend anyone else not vote for Biden who wanted these programs.

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While what the video was portraying isn't that great, the moron that posted the video is a fucking retard. It is a Qanon dipshit. Needs to be shut down.

So no comment on the content of video, just what account posted it?

[Themius]

The fact that Biden thinks Kamala Harris would make a great Supreme Court Justice worries me a lot. That's a very Trumpy thing to say.

Why? People thought she would be a great SCOTUS pick or Secretary of State.

[I Push Buttons]

Update regarding the Ohio primary situation:

The Governor filed a lawsuit (by proxy via private plaintiffs) with Ohio courts yesterday seeking to have the primary delayed in the interest of public health (his argument being that the CDC released guidelines recommending that public gatherings over 50 people should be canceled or postponed to avoid the risk of community transmission of COVID-19 and there was no way for the polls to conform with such a recommendation).

The judge denied his request.

Hours later, the Director of the Ohio Department of Health issued an order (via http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3701.13) for all polls in Ohio to be closed today.

A Republican primary candidate contesting the incumbent Republican for some position on some local Ohio court filed a lawsuit demanding the polls be re-opened late last night, the Ohio Supreme Court denied the writ early this morning; meaning the polls will remain closed.

The specifics of the delay will be worked out via the courts/Ohio Legislature in the weeks going forward.

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Obviously how it was handled was bungled, but I think this is absolutely the right call. Telling people they have to risk killing themselves or others if they wish to exercise their right to vote is the epitome of voter suppression... Its ridiculous that I am seeing so many people bitching about this, I get being upset about the timing, but people are pissed it happened at all and are screeching about how the polls should have remained open, which baffles me.

[Nurasu]

Update regarding the Ohio primary situation:

The Governor filed a lawsuit (by proxy via private plaintiffs) with Ohio courts yesterday seeking to have the primary delayed in the interest of public health (his argument being that the CDC released guidelines recommending that public gatherings over 50 people should be canceled or postponed to avoid the risk of community transmission of COVID-19 and there was no way for the polls to conform with such a recommendation).

The judge denied his request.

Hours later, the Director of the Ohio Department of Health issued an order (via http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3701.13) for all polls in Ohio to be closed today.

A Republican primary candidate contesting the incumbent Republican for some position on some local Ohio court filed a lawsuit demanding the polls be re-opened late last night, the Ohio Supreme Court denied the writ early this morning; meaning the polls will remain closed.

The specifics of the delay will be worked out via the courts/Ohio Legislature in the weeks going forward.

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Obviously how it was handled was bungled, but I think this is absolutely the right call. Telling people they have to risk killing themselves or others if they wish to exercise their right to vote is the epitome of voter suppression... Its ridiculous that I am seeing so many people bitching about this, I get being upset about the timing, but people are pissed it happened at all and are screeching about how the polls should have remained open, which baffles me.

Hopefully all states start doing mail in ballots like WA soon. It's so much more convenient, and perhaps in this day and age, necessary.

[I Push Buttons]

Hopefully all states start doing mail in ballots like WA soon. It's so much more convenient, and perhaps in this day and age, necessary.

Ohio has no-excuse needed absentee voting (I personally have never voted in person in my entire life, for example)... You just have to request a ballot, unlike Washington where they send it to everyone automatically.

They have discussed allowing absentee voting to continue for however long the delay until the in-person primaries persists, but nothing is decided yet.

[Nurasu]

Ohio has no-excuse needed absentee voting (I personally have never voted in person in my entire life, for example)... You just have to request a ballot, unlike Washington where they send it to everyone automatically.

They have discussed allowing absentee voting to continue for however long the delay until the in-person primaries persists, but nothing is decided yet.

That would be a good solution. A lot of people are worried about low turn out in the general if this lasts until then, and hopefully states can get this figured out now during the primaries just in case.

[Dacien]

I really do tire of Sanders' supporters "We can afford a can of coke, so we can afford the Coca Cola Company" lines of argument.

[tyrlaan]

I really do tire of Sanders' supporters "We can afford a can of coke, so we can afford the Coca Cola Company" lines of argument.

I've literally never seen an argue that comes close to this, so you must tire easily.

[Theodarzna]

Maybe the Boomer vote will be suppressed and Bernie can come out ahead? Honestly the fact the DNC and states are still plowing forward despite CDC/WHO warnings is truly astonishing. Especially since it puts those most at risk in the worst possible situation. Hell even my work has me still showing up for work when it can be easily done from home.

All states should consider doing Mail Balloting for the General Election, but I don't any faith that'll be done.

I think the DNC's gambit is to get Joe in before voters have a chance to see the mind melted dementia candidate talk too much more. Biden suffers the more you are aware of him.

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I really do tire of Sanders' supporters "We can afford a can of coke, so we can afford the Coca Cola Company" lines of argument.

We just conjured 1.5 trillion dollars that evaporated in about four hours time. We could have paid the entire outstanding student loan debt with that. Trump is asking for another 800 billion in stimulus. At this point we are already paying for multiple coca cola companies.

[Edge-]

I really do tire of Sanders' supporters "We can afford a can of coke, so we can afford the Coca Cola Company" lines of argument.

Are you just like, recycling conservative hot-takes on Twitter or something?

[Dacien]

We just conjured 1.5 trillion dollars that evaporated in about four hours time. We could have paid the entire outstanding student loan debt with that. Trump is asking for another 800 billion in stimulus. At this point we are already paying for multiple coca cola companies.

It's owed back with interest, that's apples and oranges. And that's half of one year of M4A. Roughly 4% of the cost over a ten year period. A rolling, continuous cost, by the way.