Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ardenaso]

This would be perfect for Sin'dorei ranger types, Farstriders etc, just with red variations and green ones, even black ones in the hairstyle and tatoos instead of blue.

It is well known that the blood elf model is based on the magister type, they haven't done one based on the ranger/farstrider - and this could fit perfectly.

Like this?

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...loodelf.322612

[Frenchvince]

Rather like that !

[Broflake]

It is not only about the eyes, they have evolved, compared to the high elves who have remained faithful to the alliance, these two groups have taken different directions ...

It is literally just about the eyes. The blood elves have gone back to their traditions. I would suggest you play the heritage quest and nightborne recruitement quest.
This does not necessarily mean they are moving back in time, but that does not mean they have not chosen to preserve their identity.
They are different from high elves because high elves don't have a future. They're free rolling it.

Alleria has a unique model that is part of the alliance, this is enough not to be available to the horde.

1. Alleria is a void elf not a high elf. So...no...stop bringing up high elve.
2. Her model is a blood elf with a unique head.
3. You don't have anything to support such a statement at all.

Why would every race except blood elves get tats?
What makes you even think void elves would get alleria tats for that matter?
What makes you believe blood elves would not get blue tats?
Are we really going to go on that slippery slope that says "blood elves aren't allowed to use blue unless they're a DK and mage with a blue hood?".
Come on now, if the aesthetic meant that much beyond eye color, they'd certainly have removed other aspects French.

[Frenchvince]

It is literally just about the eyes. The blood elves have gone back to their traditions. I would suggest you play the heritage quest and nightborne recruitement quest.
This does not necessarily mean they are moving back in time, but that does not mean they have not chosen to preserve their identity.
They are different from high elves because high elves don't have a future. They're free rolling it.


1. Alleria is a void elf not a high elf. So...no...stop bringing up high elve.
2. Her model is a blood elf with a unique head.
3. You don't have anything to support such a statement at all.

Why would every race except blood elves get tats?
What makes you even think void elves would get alleria tats for that matter?
What makes you believe blood elves would not get blue tats?
Are we really going to go on that slippery slope that says "blood elves aren't allowed to use blue unless they're a DK and mage with a blue hood?".
Come on now, if the aesthetic meant that much beyond eye color, they'd certainly have removed other aspects French.

ask Blizzard your question, it's not me who decides.

[Broflake]

Kul'Tiran Humans say hi.

What race are Kul Tirans?
What faction are Kul Tirans?
Your attempt at a gotcha doesn't work for anyone who looks beyond skin deep.

Void Elves customisation options that are not accessible to Blood Elf players but are obviously accessible to Blood Elves in lore say hi.

Lore =/= game design.
Let alone void elves are a different races unto themselves. I know you hate them, but they aren't seen the same.
Blood elves and high elves are a different matter all together. You can keep saying hi, but you're trying to greet a different circumstance that does not exist.

So no, you, don't need to apply the same changes to Blood Elves, that's just plainly not true. And there is nothing lore-unfriendly about that, that's just a bullshit argument that not only is debunked by the game itself, it only exists so that people like you would have something to argue about against playable High Elves.

Game doesn't debunk it dude. It only supports it.
Your counter argument is flimsy because it completely ignores the context in which those changes were made, and many of the offerings wont occur in game because they simply wont be a thing. Blizzard wants to preserve uniqueness, even if its just through different colors.

The metaphor makes sense for the argument that you used. You said I should be happy with Void Elves because they are former Horde, exiled. So I should be happy by any exiles from Horde, according to your argument.

I stated you should be happy because they have the same history as the high elves. Your statement was a strawman, which is why it did not hold any weight.

Because that question was ridiculous and you should feel bad for even asking that. High Elves weren't loyal to Alliance because we didn't see an Alliance-aligned High Elf group until WotLK? Not only High Elves in Hinterlands say hi, this argument is akin to claiming that Pandaria didn't exist in lore until it was added to the game in MoP. You can make better arguments than that.

The high elves in the Hinterlands stationed themselves prior to the events of WoW to be ambassadors to various races, including the Trolls within the area who are famously anti-alliance.
They ally with the dwarves within the area and request alliance assistance, but there is nothing to suggest they have ever chosen to join the alliance formerly or ever assist them. They have the means, but they do not do so. So keep saying hi, but no one is going to respond.
Pandas also existed since the before the founding of Ogrimmar dude. So that argument doesn't work.

Just because you work with someone doesn't make them alliance. Horde have worked with various humans, that does not mean they are a part of the Horde. Same for the Ankoan you work with in Nazjatar. They're not alliance, but they do work with you.

What lore do you want Blizzard to expand, exactly?

The void elves? The group I just mentioned

1) Different coping with magic addiction

Half truth.
Blood elves such as Lorthemar didn't need to draw magic.
High elves in Outland were also stealing magical artifacts for their own usage.
The high elves in Dalaran literally bathed in the arcane magic that was emitted.
Not even a half truth at this point its just false.

2) Being exiles

Only the quel'lithien high elves were ever formerly exiled.
All other high elves have self imposed their own exile and even then, many go to the sunwell as shown in WotlK and Auric.

3) Different ideology regarding magic and ways to live

This is largely false as well. The only high elves whove turned away entirely were the hinterland high elves.
Those of quel'lithien prior to their death practiced light magic and arcane magic.
Silver Covenant has many different arcane mages and even harnessed thunder magic.
The only difference is whom they are friendly to, and that is a political distinction

And it's not just Horde aligned/not Horde aligned. Valeera is a Blood Elf. She is not Horde.

Valeera is a blood elf because she identifies with them and agrees with the decisions she has made.
She works solely for the Wrynn family and is a neutral party.
Koltira is a high elf, who then chooses to join the blood elves because he died trying to save them.
The matter is a political one, and nothing more.

My point is if I want to play a race that represent High Elves the closest in terms of themes and feel, they are Humans, not Void Elves. And the WC2 lore is completely irrelevant for the Void Elves anyway.

That is completely false given that the events of WC2 were responsible for setting in motion the events of WC3.
Alleria herself is also from WC2 and she is a void elf. A huge chunk of lore is related directly to her and WC2 and WC3. It is not irrelevant at all.

This was a part of an understanding that Blood Elves is Blizzard's take on high elf trope while actual High Elves which are this trope played straight are just a group of NPCs for the Alliance questing, not much relevant. I understand that this is Blizzard's position, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

You don't need to agree with it but that is the situation at hand.
Blood elves in lore, are high elves whose name reflects honoring their dead.
Blood elves to the developers, are high elves, and in design they are also the high elves you want, so they want you to go Horde for it.
If you don't like it, void elves are the compromise.

Now I understand you disagree and want high elves, that is fine, but I do think the high elf cause would be better if the game of names was no longer played and people said flat out.
"I want them because it would be cool to play them.".

Simply since any lore changes to justify them being playable would break previous lore. Playable characters engage in killing ALL races of the opposing faction, which is something the high elves have seemingly moved away from since MoP where Vereesa wants to see them united. Making them playable and having the player kill blood elves kind of goes against the lore being set up.

- - - Updated - - -

ask Blizzard your question, it's not me who decides.

You could just admit you cannot support your argument rather than making this double edged statement. It just dismisses everything you said.

[Frenchvince]

You could just admit you cannot support your argument rather than making this double edged statement. It just dismisses everything you said.

My arguments remain the same, take them as you want.
And for your information, there are also other races that do not have tattoos.

[Broflake]

My arguments remain the same, take them as you want.

Your opinions are the same yes, but unless they are supported, they hold as much weight as claiming magenta is a nice color.

And for your information, there are also other races that do not have tattoos.

Many races don't have the opportunity to show it in game due to how this game was initially designed, even if in lore they have it.
Unless you're suggesting orcs don't have tattoos.

[Frenchvince]

Your opinions are the same yes, but unless they are supported, they hold as much weight as claiming magenta is a nice color.


Many races don't have the opportunity to show it in game due to how this game was initially designed, even if in lore they have it.
Unless you're suggesting orcs don't have tattoos.

Well, the blood elves received body jewelry instead of tattoos, it's already good.
The orcs on the other hand already have their tattoos, follow the news.

[Traycor]

Void elf bug in Shadowlands. Entropic Embrace racial proc is normally darker than on live in SL, but for some reason it bugged and check out how my void elf looked like during it:

Without Entropic Embrace:


During Entropic Embrace:

That's pretty funny, especially considering void elves shouldn't have that skin tone in their tables at all.

[bobwuzhere1224]

And if Void Elves do get High Elf customization options and Ion says that the reason is because the High Elves are rallying to Alleria's side and justifying their fleshtone options due to using her method of becoming a Void Elf rather than recklessly trying to recreate the accident that created Umbric's squad, will you accept that as readily as you did the denial of blue eyes for Blood Elves?

You might well be right on with your conclusions, but I prefer to leave ample room for doubt to avoid another blindside like we had with the blue eyes denial.

I agree that human fleshtones won't squash the requests for playable Alliance High Elves, but I do think it might appease enough people to reduce the calls for them significantly, especially if there is in game lore showing the High Elves actively joining Alleria and their reasoning for doing so.

As long as Blizzard has a lore reason to justify it, then I'll accept whatever is added to void elves.

[Traycor]

It is quite different from the BE style which is more in brushing and neat curls.

Great example of a high elf!

[ddi2]

What race are Kul Tirans?
What faction are Kul Tirans?
Your attempt at a gotcha doesn't work for anyone who looks beyond skin deep.

Kul'Tirans are humans. Literally the same race as Stromwind Humans. Yet, playable Kul'Tirans have different models from Stormwind Humans, even though according to your logic they shouldn't be.

Or are you going to claim that's different because they are on the same factions and then fail to answer why it makes it different like the other guy I was arguing with a few pages back?

Lore =/= game design.
Let alone void elves are a different races unto themselves. I know you hate them, but they aren't seen the same.
Blood elves and high elves are a different matter all together. You can keep saying hi, but you're trying to greet a different circumstance that does not exist.

Lore =/= game design? Oh really? Because it seems like you are arguing for the other way around.

Game doesn't debunk it dude. It only supports it.
Your counter argument is flimsy because it completely ignores the context in which those changes were made, and many of the offerings wont occur in game because they simply wont be a thing. Blizzard wants to preserve uniqueness, even if its just through different colors.

The game only supports it if you start strawmaning and dodging the issue and be obtuse in general.

Two factions of the same race can have different models for the sake of gameplay. That's a fact. There is a precedent. That's a fact. Your exercise in demagogy won't change this simple fact, no matter how much you try. Blizzard is fine with doing it and there is nothing lore-unfriendly about it both from Blizzard's point of view and from a common sense point of view.

The fact that Blizzard doesn't want to give Alliance pale elves is a separate issue altogether and that's where your argument should be and what you should be talking about. Because that's Blizzard's actual way of thinking, so please, stop with this 'High Elves can't get different models or/and customisation options without Blood Elves getting them' bullshit. Because this is simply not true. You can be better than that.

I stated you should be happy because they have the same history as the high elves. Your statement was a strawman, which is why it did not hold any weight.

And I just tried to showcase why your statement wasn't a good argument. Because shared history doesn't matter if it is no longer relevant and the races feel different now. Undead were Humans very recently too, their separate history is approximately as long as the separate history of Blood Elves and High Elves. Does it mean that Undead and Humans play the same and would be a proper replacement with each other in theory? Well, of course not, that would be silly to say. So do Void Elves don't feel like High Elves even if they were the same people relatively recently.

The high elves in the Hinterlands stationed themselves prior to the events of WoW to be ambassadors to various races, including the Trolls within the area who are famously anti-alliance.
They ally with the dwarves within the area and request alliance assistance, but there is nothing to suggest they have ever chosen to join the alliance formerly or ever assist them. They have the means, but they do not do so. So keep saying hi, but no one is going to respond.
Pandas also existed since the before the founding of Ogrimmar dude. So that argument doesn't work.

Just because you work with someone doesn't make them alliance. Horde have worked with various humans, that does not mean they are a part of the Horde. Same for the Ankoan you work with in Nazjatar. They're not alliance, but they do work with you.

I didn't say they were a part of Alliance, I said they were Alliance-aligned which they were. Basically every High Elf was Alliance-aligned and functioned as NPCs for Alliance players (which they are still now, anyway). And just because WotLK showed even more Alliance-aligned High Elves, it doesn't mean they materialised out of thin air when the expansion hit, these elves existed before and were also Alliance-aligned, obviously.

The void elves? The group I just mentioned

The Void Elves are Void Elves and have their own lore. What about it?

Half truth.
Blood elves such as Lorthemar didn't need to draw magic.
High elves in Outland were also stealing magical artifacts for their own usage.
The high elves in Dalaran literally bathed in the arcane magic that was emitted.
Not even a half truth at this point its just false.

I said 'different ways' to cope with addiction. That means refusal to touch anything fel or siphoning mana from living beings. Not about not getting it from artefacts. You just made an argument for me and argued against it.

Only the quel'lithien high elves were ever formerly exiled.
All other high elves have self imposed their own exile and even then, many go to the sunwell as shown in WotlK and Auric.

This is largely false as well. The only high elves whove turned away entirely were the hinterland high elves.
Those of quel'lithien prior to their death practiced light magic and arcane magic.
Silver Covenant has many different arcane mages and even harnessed thunder magic.
The only difference is whom they are friendly to, and that is a political distinction

I see you again pretended that I spoke about refusal of magic altogether and argued against it. Nice.

Valeera is a blood elf because she identifies with them and agrees with the decisions she has made.
She works solely for the Wrynn family and is a neutral party.
Koltira is a high elf, who then chooses to join the blood elves because he died trying to save them.
The matter is a political one, and nothing more.

How exactly did your arguments about Valeera and Koltira lead to your conclusion, I don't follow?

That is completely false given that the events of WC2 were responsible for setting in motion the events of WC3.
Alleria herself is also from WC2 and she is a void elf. A huge chunk of lore is related directly to her and WC2 and WC3. It is not irrelevant at all.

Alleria is not a Void Elf.

The lore of actual Void Elves, what makes them Void Elves and what is relevant for them has nothing to do with neither WC2, nor WC3.

You don't need to agree with it but that is the situation at hand.
Blood elves in lore, are high elves whose name reflects honoring their dead.
Blood elves to the developers, are high elves, and in design they are also the high elves you want, so they want you to go Horde for it.
If you don't like it, void elves are the compromise.

I understand Blizzard's position, and you are mostly right here, except for the fact that Blood Elves are the high elves I want because that's just not true. But I understand that currently Blizzard don't want Alliance to have a pale elf fantasy period, they believe that this fantasy should be reserved to Horde. This is though purely an opinion-based design decision with wich you can either agree with or disagree. Blizzard themselves understand it, they have indicated it multiple times and also this is why they tell over and over again that High Elves might still happen. Because at the moment they just don't want to do it and probably think that they won't ever want to do that, but obviously circumstances changes, the number of subs is not guaranteed, nor the fact that the current devs are going to work on WoW forever.

Now I understand you disagree and want high elves, that is fine, but I do think the high elf cause would be better if the game of names was no longer played and people said flat out.
"I want them because it would be cool to play them.".

Simply since any lore changes to justify them being playable would break previous lore. Playable characters engage in killing ALL races of the opposing faction, which is something the high elves have seemingly moved away from since MoP where Vereesa wants to see them united. Making them playable and having the player kill blood elves kind of goes against the lore being set up.

And I just wish that people against High Elves would just acknowledge that they are against it because they are Horde players who are emotionally invested in the Horde and any idea about taking something away from them that they perceive their annoys them. That the pale elf fantasy should be Horde-only. That would be honest, instead of continuing to come up with some ridiculous arguments non-stop like the lore argument you just made or that 'High Elves can't get a new model without Blood Elves getting it' argument that is plainly contradicted by the game itself.

[Broflake]

Well, the blood elves received body jewelry instead of tattoos, it's already good.
The orcs on the other hand already have their tattoos, follow the news.

Honest question, did you read what I stated?
Let alone, do you really believe the small amount of accessories given for an alpha build is accurate to the final creation? Come on now.

- - - Updated - - -

Kul'Tirans are humans. Literally the same race as Stromwind Humans. Yet, playable Kul'Tirans have different models from Stormwind Humans, even though according to your logic they shouldn't be.

Please do not strawman, if it is my logic, why do you refuse to acknowledge the nuances I have provided to you?
Let alone there are also several other arguments that can be placed before you.
Such as the developers stating "The body type of the kul tirans is not exclusive to them and is going to be used for all humans.".
Which means, if you are someone who RP's, that kul tiran body type can be used for someone who is from Stormwind, or a non-infected Gilnean, or a human who lives in a village elsewhere.
It is not exclusive to Kul Tirans.

As for high elves and blood elves. They are literally the same generation since we met them in WC2. Unlike orcs, they don't reach maturity at the age of 17. They all hail as citizens of Quel'thalas, where as the Kul tirans and human race have multiple nations and cultures to draw.
The human race, is also on the same faction.
The comparison simply cannot be done. You are trying to compare these two things and claim them the same. They are not.

Or are you going to claim that's different because they are on the same factions and then fail to answer why it makes it different like the other guy I was arguing with a few pages back?

Stating they are on the same faction is literally different from you demanding high elves to be on the alliance when their parent race is on the Horde.

Lore =/= game design? Oh really? Because it seems like you are arguing for the other way around.

Then I offer for you to read what is presented and not what you wish is there.

The game only supports it if you start strawmaning and dodging the issue and be obtuse in general.

Strawmanning is mis-representing the argument in front of you.
I have not dodged, nor am I being obtuse. You simply dislike I do not agree with your assertion.

Two factions of the same race can have different models for the sake of gameplay. That's a fact. There is a precedent. That's a fact. Your exercise in demagogy won't change this simple fact, no matter how much you try. Blizzard is fine with doing it and there is nothing lore-unfriendly about it both from Blizzard's point of view and from a common sense point of view.

The fact that Blizzard doesn't want to give Alliance pale elves is a separate issue altogether and that's where your argument should be and what you should be talking about. Because that's Blizzard's actual way of thinking, so please, stop with this 'High Elves can't get different models or/and customisation options without Blood Elves getting them' bullshit. Because this is simply not true. You can be better than that.

Really now?
Where is the precedent?
If you are referring to nightborne and void elves, they use the same night elf and blood elf model. If you are not being technical and refer to the lore standpoint, void elves and nightborne are not considered the same race as blood elves and night elves respectively.
You don't have any precedent.
If you are going to bring up Pandara, they were designed to be neutral, unlike your request which essentially makes blood elves neutral.
My argument is my argument, what I need to argue and what I should argue is determined by me, not by you. You can dislike it, and that is essentially where it is, perhaps you should refrain from telling people their argument is bullshit, and try to suggest they are lesser for not arguing what you desire.
Instead, focus on your own argument and determining what supports it because I am not seeing much to keep it as well polished as you believe.

And I just tried to showcase why your statement wasn't a good argument.

No, what you did was threw out a red herring and expected me to bite. Your metaphor does not work period.

Because shared history doesn't matter if it is no longer relevant and the races feel different now. Undead were Humans very recently too, their separate history is approximately as long as the separate history of Blood Elves and High Elves. Does it mean that Undead and Humans play the same and would be a proper replacement with each other in theory? Well, of course not, that would be silly to say. So do Void Elves don't feel like High Elves even if they were the same people relatively recently.

mmm...yes...yes it does, because the shared history is what determines how they act and behave and why they joined the sides they did. The void elves are made of blood elves who did not agree with joining the horde, and chose to seek out a way to save their people without assistance from the Horde. In essence, they are high elves who chose to stick to their arcane roots with it backfiring in their face.
The forsaken, however, are people who were forced into being undead, and when they attempted to join their families, were rejected and murdered so they joined the Horde.
These motivations explains their lore.

If you want to play an untainted high elf, you go Horde. These distinctions are part of what makes factions meaningful. If you're unhappy at the notion, that is just the way the game is. I would like to be a worgen on the Horde, but they are alliance, so I go alliance even if I may view the lore as unpleasing to me. The entire basis of your arugment is basically "I don't like the direction they took and I want to be a blood elf but on the alliance.".

I didn't say they were a part of Alliance, I said they were Alliance-aligned which they were. Basically every High Elf was Alliance-aligned and functioned as NPCs for Alliance players (which they are still now, anyway). And just because WotLK showed even more Alliance-aligned High Elves, it doesn't mean they materialised out of thin air when the expansion hit, these elves existed before and were also Alliance-aligned, obviously.
If you want that high elf fantasy and gameplay you go Horde.

The Void Elves are Void Elves and have their own lore. What about it?

So Void elves don't have a past history in anyway?
I guess Alleria has no history with the alliance the moment she hate a Naaru. That is just being facetious of you.

I said 'different ways' to cope with addiction. That means refusal to touch anything fel or siphoning mana from living beings. Not about not getting it from artefacts. You just made an argument for me and argued against it.

Okay, clearly I need to simplify it.
High elves did not do anything different than what blood elves did.
Some blood elves touched only artifacts. Some blood elves touched living things. Some did not need anything. So...no...high elves didn't do anything different from blood elves. Which was my point.

High elves aren't exiles.
Only quel'lithien high elves are exiles, because Lor'themar exiled them for splitting the blood elf people politically.
Dalaran high elves and Vereesa were not present. Ergo, they didn't get exiled.
Same for Alleria and Auric who were off world. Why would they be exiled?
Particularly when Alleria is allowed to see the sunwell despite being a void elf, and AUric is there with high elf pilgrims in WotLK.

I see you again pretended that I spoke about refusal of magic altogether and argued against it. Nice.

I literally just addressed all the ways in people suggest high elves have a different philosophy of magic and demonstrated how it isn't different at all.
If you cannot defend your statement, then all these one line statements do is serve to be passive aggressive observations.

How exactly did your arguments about Valeera and Koltira lead to your conclusion, I don't follow?

Valeera =/= Alliance and considers herself a blood elf because its a philosophy and political distinction.
Kol Tira = high elf who went Horde.

Blood elves aren't aligned with the Alliance in any capacity to my knowledge.

Alleria is not a Void Elf.

She is literally identified as a void elf by devs, lore, and in game files.

The lore of actual Void Elves, what makes them Void Elves and what is relevant for them has nothing to do with neither WC2, nor WC3.

That doesn't matter. She is a void elf. A different subtype of void elf, but still a void elf.
Just like how someone who is Chinese is still human even though they are a different ethnicity from a Japanese human.

I understand Blizzard's position, and you are mostly right here, except for the fact that Blood Elves are the high elves I want because that's just not true. But I understand that currently Blizzard don't want Alliance to have a pale elf fantasy period, they believe that this fantasy should be reserved to Horde. This is though purely an opinion-based design decision with wich you can either agree with or disagree. Blizzard themselves understand it, they have indicated it multiple times and also this is why they tell over and over again that High Elves might still happen. Because at the moment they just don't want to do it and probably think that they won't ever want to do that, but obviously circumstances changes, the number of subs is not guaranteed, nor the fact that the current devs are going to work on WoW forever.

They only say it might happen over and over and over, because its a platitude. You think they're going to suddenly change their minds?
They had the opportunity for high elves in TBC. They balked.
WotLK, they balked.
MoP, they balked.
BFA, where they literally had high elves as a possible alliance race, and the intentionally chose NOT to do them to preserve faction identity.
Words mean little compared to action.
Void elves are the compromised.

And I just wish that people against High Elves would just acknowledge that they are against it because they are Horde players who are emotionally invested in the Horde and any idea about taking something away from them that they perceive their annoys them. That the pale elf fantasy should be Horde-only. That would be honest, instead of continuing to come up with some ridiculous arguments non-stop like the lore argument you just made or that 'High Elves can't get a new model without Blood Elves getting it' argument that is plainly contradicted by the game itself.

Well... few things to correct you on.

1. I am an Alliance player. My Horde character was made because my wife wanted to be a forsaken holy priest. When she quit, I went back to the alliance.
2. It isn't about pale skin or dark skin or whatever. It is about faction identity. I don't want what is on the alliance to be on the Horde in the exact same appearance as on the ALliance, especially when the lore says they are the same race.


You can claim the game contradicts it, but it only does so if you ignore literally that explains why its a different circumstance.

[FlubberPuddy]

High elves aren't exiles.
Only quel'lithien high elves are exiles, because Lor'themar exiled them for splitting the blood elf people politically.
Dalaran high elves and Vereesa were not present. Ergo, they didn't get exiled.
Same for Alleria and Auric who were off world. Why would they be exiled?
Particularly when Alleria is allowed to see the sunwell despite being a void elf, and AUric is there with high elf pilgrims in WotLK.

Wrong

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vereesa_Windrunner

Silvermoon Messenger says: I bring word from the Regent Lord of Silvermoon.
Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar demands an explanation for the presence of this... exile in our lands.

Vereesa being called an exile, this is in Cata btw after the aforementioned 'elves are allowed to make pilgrimages! since Wrath!'

One can thus extrapolate if Vereesa is exiled so is her contingent of High Elves, the Silver Covenant. And that we do not see any High Elves coming back to associate with Silvermoon or Quel'thalas (as in there's no known High Elves, who claim to be High Elves and not Blood Elves) means the High Elves are exiled from Silvermoon.

Also Alleria was brought to visit but quickly exiled after it was shown her Void presence causes danger to the Sunwell. So yes, Alleria is exiled as well, just because Lor'themar didn't immediately order it doesn't it didn't occur just moments after.

Alleria is a war hero after all, until the void incident she was heralded as a major figure in all of Silvermoon.

[Obelisk Kai]

This is in fact incorrect in a light of what Ion said recently. I don't remember exactly in what interveiw, but he said that all those new customization options are not necessarily tied to the lore and if you want to roleplay a black or asian human, it is your choice and it does not have to be backed up by lore all the time. All those new custumization are given to players to create their characters more to their liking.

There are also black skin option for blood elves, and you know, if we follow that logic that blood elves are high elves, those are described in lore as fair skinned elves. There is no background anywhere which would indicate black elves among thalassians as far as I am concerned. If there is introduced new lore to support that, great. Blood elves have new thematics. One more reason for high elf customization for void elves.

Is there anything about the darker skin tones for Humans or Blood Elves or Dwarves or Gnomes that breaks lore? These tones exist on the human skin tone range. It is perfectly fine that they don't require justification.

However, Void Elves (by virtue of their transformation) have been removed from the human skin tone range. Their skin tones change is THE primary and most visible physical differentiating factor between them and blood/high elves. This range spreads from bone white, to light blue, to dark blue. None of the tones are on the human skin tone range. This alteration was a by-product of their transformation. Therefore it goes against established lore to be a void anything without a corresponding physical change.

In fact I don't think there is any group in this game who have been 'corrupted' by a source of magic who haven't been changed. Even the lightforged draenei, who are as corrupted by holy energy as void elves are by void energies, but we put a positive spin on it because we view the light as positive, even they changed as a result of their transformation.

As for 'new lore', multiple requests for multiple races make sense if only Blizzard would introduce 'new lore' or agree with an interpretation of current lore that makes perfect sense towards those pushing for that change. Given blue eyes for blood elves didn't happen, saying 'new lore' or 'it makes perfect sense' pretty much means nothing.

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And if Void Elves do get High Elf customization options and Ion says that the reason is because the High Elves are rallying to Alleria's side and justifying their fleshtone options due to using her method of becoming a Void Elf rather than recklessly trying to recreate the accident that created Umbric's squad, will you accept that as readily as you did the denial of blue eyes for Blood Elves?

Her method of becoming a Void Elf involved the direct consumption of the heart of a dark naaru. Umbric brought up this interaction to Alleria when they first met, and Sylvanas brought it up as the cause of her transformation in the Three Sisters comic. The thing about dark naaru though is that they are incredibly rare.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev

Question:What is the nature of the Void state of the Na'aru? For a being of the Light, turning into such a dark being seems like a heavy weakness. Sucking in souls and causing destruction simply because of a loss in strength greatly diminishes their saintly image. Though, this might be a reason they don't act in combat very much, as turning on your army due to fatigue wouldn't be good for morale.

Because three cases of this "cycle" have been demonstrated in Nagrand, Auchindoun, and Sunwell Plateau (K'ure, D'ore, and M'uru, respectively), players may have received the wrong impression with regard to the magnitude and rarity of these events: it is EXCEEDINGLY rare for a naaru to fall into a void state, and even rarer for a fallen naaru to be brought back into the Light. A naaru's fall into the void represents a catastrophic loss for the naaru and for the forces of the Light, and it is the saddest, most heart-wrenching event for the naaru to witness. Conversely, a naaru being reborn into the Light brings renewed hope and sense of purpose to every naaru; if energy beings could weep tears of joy, this would do it.

In other words while you are putting forth a hypothetical method by which human range skin tones could be applied to a Void Elf, existing lore rules that out.

In contrast the method that created Umbric's squad seems relatively easy to replicate. Merely bombard a target with void energy until they begin transforming and then stop at a moment when they are midway between an elf and an ethereal. In fact, they are using this method as we speak.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=148871/voidcrafted-ravasaur

These are ravasaurs found in Zuldazar that void elf npcs are blasting with void energy to shift them into a void based form. Also.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=156486/...ed-voidstrider

Nobody has ever addressed these guys. This is the void elf racial mount. It's a voided out hawkstrider. I've watched and played the scenario involving umbric and his fellows being transformed and there are no hawkstriders in sight. Where then did this come from? The only possible explanation is that they void elves transformed hawkstriders into void striders AFTER they themselves were transformed. Look at the mount description.

""This shadow-infused strider embodies the elves' commitment to harness the power of the Void in the name of the Alliance."

Void elves believe their power to be a positive. They are converting their mounts into void based variants to demonstrate it's effectiveness.

And Umbric's group consisted of Mages and warlocks. Yet Void Elves can be warriors, rogues, priests, monks and hunters as well, hardly individuals you'd bring along to do intense magical research. Funny thing is that all the npcs being transformed in the scenario seem to be casters, given they are wearing robes and cast magic spells. The purpose of the presence of high elf and blood elf npcs in tel'ogrus merely serves to drive home that void elves are able to turn other elves into void elves.

This explains why a small group of casters is now a bigger organisation with multiple classes capable of dispatching a relatively substantial force on a suicide mission.

The ritual they are using is working. A new one isn't required. And apparently blue is a true hallmark of the Alliance. If that logic is now being applied to blue eyes, surely it applies to skin tones as well. Void elves going the extra mile in the demonstration of their fidelity.

I agree that human fleshtones won't squash the requests for playable Alliance High Elves, but I do think it might appease enough people to reduce the calls for them significantly, especially if there is in game lore showing the High Elves actively joining Alleria and their reasoning for doing so.

Void elves exist as a compromise. From my perspective the ideal solution was no void elves, no nightborne and if people wanted to play a high elf they could go to the horde and if they wanted to play a night elf they could go to the alliance. As it stands, the compromise is that alliance players get a distinct high elf variant whilst preserving the theme and aesthetic of the traditional high elf to the horde blood elves. Any further movement to cater to the 'calls' of those looking for the exiles therefore changes the nature of the compromise.

Besides, it's important to remember that forums are an echo chamber. The 'call' has the illusion of popularity, but in actual fact seems to stir about a thousand players on average into action. That's a drop in a bucket. The void elf compromise on the other hand has become the fourth most popular race within the alliance. A compromise that allowed blizzard to get the $$$ pro high elf people said would be theirs for adding high elves, yet which also allowed blizzard to preserve their red lines?

That's having your cake and eating it. Every decision they've ever made has detractors. This one is no different.

[Frenchvince]

I just did the quest to have Quel'Delar with a void elf.
I had never done this quest, by dint of reading in this thread references about her, I said to myself, I have to do it one day.
It was magic, the best moment was when Lor'themar was knocked out by the sword when he wanted to take it.

This thread at least served me to make content that I had not yet done.



Sunwell and Void Elf

[Vaedan]

Is there anything about the darker skin tones for Humans or Blood Elves or Dwarves or Gnomes that breaks lore? These tones exist on the human skin tone range. It is perfectly fine that they don't require justification.

However, Void Elves (by virtue of their transformation) have been removed from the human skin tone range. Their skin tones change is THE primary and most visible physical differentiating factor between them and blood/high elves. This range spreads from bone white, to light blue, to dark blue. None of the tones are on the human skin tone range. This alteration was a by-product of their transformation. Therefore it goes against established lore to be a void anything without a corresponding physical change.

In fact I don't think there is any group in this game who have been 'corrupted' by a source of magic who haven't been changed. Even the lightforged draenei, who are as corrupted by holy energy as void elves are by void energies, but we put a positive spin on it because we view the light as positive, even they changed as a result of their transformation.

As for 'new lore', multiple requests for multiple races make sense if only Blizzard would introduce 'new lore' or agree with an interpretation of current lore that makes perfect sense towards those pushing for that change. Given blue eyes for blood elves didn't happen, saying 'new lore' or 'it makes perfect sense' pretty much means nothing.

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.

As for the humans, gnomes, I agree that there is no evidence that dark skin is something against lore, but there are now more features which points out to certain ethnics. This is something which has not been explored in Warcraft before, so it is natural that community asks if it is based by lore - is my black or asian human coming from some specific place? Does he/she has specific culture? The answer from Blizzard is no. It is there purely for the purpose to let players create more detailed and nuanced character. There is no asian human kingdom, and probably there will not be.

Blood elves and dwarves on the other hand are another story. Black skinned dwarves were always only Dark Irons and it was one of their core thematics which differentiate them amongs other clans. Blood elves are clearly described as fair skinned, both by lore sources, and even by Word of God, as you call it. You even have it in your signature. There are hints that usage of fel magic darkens skin of blood elves to some extent, but I am not sure if it is cannon. That is actually something that need explanation, since we have a race, described as pale, in contrast to their ancestors, which used to have darker skin and so far, it was one of the difference between night elves and blood elves. To be honest, I don't mind adding black skin tones to blood elves, but I think it could use little explanation. Only claiming it is due to sunwell's influence could be enough, since it is font of holy energy now, and blood elves are clearly defining themselves as "Sun elves" now, but right now, we don't have any explanation why all of sudden blood elves got dark skin, while it was previously stated they are pale.

What I meant is that if blood elves get new identity of Sun elves, or to be more accurate, if their current identity of sun elves is further developed, it is natural evolution of Sin'dorei. It does mean that Blizzard can develop another theme to differentiate blood and void elves. I can easily picture blood elves in more tanned tones, using red, gold and green colours and fully embracing the light, and on the other hand pale void elves in blue, silver and purple palette.

I don't think void elves will actually get full palette of human like skin tones, but getting some is not that unimaginable, especially if we get new lore which support it, like void elves guiding those high/blood elven initiates in Telogrus to the transformation similar to those of Alleria. Perhaps moving their skin tones more to the night elves is more possible. You never know if something that happens or not, but it is possibility. We can discuss the odds of such implementation, but it will be still only discussion based on our personal opinions. It can easily happen. There are hints from Blizzard that it is likely void elves will get some form of "high elf" customization. We don't know what it will look like, and if Blizzard decides to do so, they can easily produce new lore to validate that addition. I agree with you that for some people, even high elf customization on void elves will not be enough, but still it is now the most appropriate way of giving high elf community the option to play the fantasy they want, and not adding another elf race.

[Rootsbum]

With the tecnology we have today, making enemy spells change colours and all in PvE: Isnt it possible to have some sort of aura "transparent" when you are Alliance and see a velf, and give a Purple effect when Horde sees them?

Slap on some blonde hair, some PURPLE farstrider-tattoos to compromize and voila?
You can now RP a high elf without conflict in PvP.

I for once would rather have a new model though,

[Vaedan]

With the tecnology we have today, making enemy spells change colours and all in PvE: Isnt it possible to have some sort of aura "transparent" when you are Alliance and see a velf, and give a Purple effect when Horde sees them?

Slap on some blonde hair, some PURPLE farstrider-tattoos to compromize and voila?
You can now RP a high elf without conflict in PvP.

I for once would rather have a new model though,

The silluette problem is not what is discussed here now. It was one of the solid arguments of the anti-helf community back before void elves were introduced, and to be honest, it was one the arguments that I understood and respected, but void elves made it to the water... ehmm... to the game, and here we are. If you fully equip void elf, you will not tell the difference between him and blood elf in the same equip.

The thing that is discussed now is that high elves would robbed of blood elves of their unique aesthetics and thematics, which is something that pro-helfers believe is not the case, since high elves could provide something that is unique for them. That is dismissed by anti-helfers, since they believe that anything which is thalassian is rightfully blood elven, no matter what.

[Obelisk Kai]

My credibility to who? You and others who have already resolved to prevent Alliance High Elves from becoming playable and thus make consistently disingenuous and hypocritical arguments that eat each other?

Lol, I don't need to have credibility in those eyes and as has been shown by neutral parties that come into this thread to comment on the nature of your posts, it's easy for others who don't have a horse in this race to see the same things as well.

Your credibility in general.

Ion can make incorrect statements and correct statements. Believing he is incorrect one time and correct another is frankly okay, no one has to believe every single thing that comes out of a person's mouth, nor has to think everything they say is a lie either.

You have given yourself a license to cherrypick. If the developers say something you don't like it's incorrect. If they say something you do like it's sacrosanct. That isn't how facts work. As you have admitted this, it is pertinent to point it out that this is your stance regarding what we know.

In regards to the citing of supposedly neutral parties to back your opinion up it was just a weeks ago you were talking about the importance of using 'I' rather than 'we' yet this continuing rhetorical tool of saying 'neutral parties' or 'people who haven't been in the thread before' is a transparent attempt to imply your argument is swaying the undecideds. That is a reach.

So this entire section is you replying to a quote of mine where I said "Ion, nor any Blizzard employee has ever re-stated what Ion said two years ago." and yet you show me videos of statements as far as three years ago and before Ion's April Q&A in 2018 which was the last time any Blizzard employee took a jab when asked about High Elves.

Unsure what point you're making, as it looks like you've missed the point entirely despite it literally being right in what you quoted from me.

Statements from Blizzard Employees, and even Taliesin after that first video you linked, have since then

1) Been supportive of the possibility of High Elves (Afrasiabi emphasizing 'Don't give up hope', Ion mentioning on the showfloor 'the door hasn't closed' 'just because they're not in bfa doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever')

2) Taliesin and Evitel going over the blue eyes datamining and stating people are understandably upset because when players make the High Elf request it's about a specific group that even the game itself recognizes as different from Blood Elves.

So not sure what you were trying to do here, it seems you think linking statements that are prior to what I mention is somehow destroying my statement about the fact that since April 2018 they haven't dismissed the High Elf request and since then approached it with a sense of 'hope'?

Actually your initial point was

"Same to you, you do you as well. Void Elves have never been stated to fulfill the High Elves the Alliance has been requesting and Ion, nor any Blizzard employee has ever re-stated what Ion said two years ago."

Two distinct points, separated by the conjunction and. The evidence I presented was to show that firstly, they did say void elves are a high elf variant for the alliance in place of the exiles and that secondly it's pretty obvious what the intent behind them was anyway which is why I included the Taliesin video.

Attempting to conflate your own points is an attempt to argue you were saying 'Blizzard hasn't stated void elves were the replacement for high elves within the past two years'. That is not what you were saying.

In regards to your other two points, Afrasiabi was talking about void elf customisations rather than high elves. A Void Elf that has high elf customisations is still a void elf. Even were void elves to get skins that rendered them nearly identical to a high elf, they still wouldn't be a high elf. They'd be a void elf, unable to be Paladins.
And his statement here, that it's possible, echoes Ion's own 2013 statement regarding the possibility of high elves as a sub-race. At the time that triggered a level of excitement among pro helfers, but then they sat down and thought about it and came up with void elves. Given what has just happened with blue eyes for blood elves and the absence of anything like gilgoblin skins on goblins and eredar skins on draenei, it looks like they've had their time to sit down and think about things again.
In the very likely event that the void elf customisation pass comes and they don't get those customisations, Afrasiabi's 'it's possible' statement will be defunct, as the opportunity will have arisen and not taken.
(In fact, looping back a bit, the lost codex guys phrase the question as by stating they 'agree that void elves fill that void where the high elves are' and afrasiabi nods at that exact statement. So yet more 'influencers' accepting the obvious intent behind void elves.)

In regards to Taliesin and Evitel, as entertaining as they are, they are not unbiased on this topic. I believe there was an event where one person was wondering about blue eyes for blood elves, BEFORE the news came through, Taliesin apparently said 'that's not what high elf fans want'. Which of course is a clear demonstration of that bias. As it stands, nobody is getting the ideal of a blue eyed human skin tone range elf. A blue eyed Void Elf seems to be goal here.

I don't see how pointing me to the video about Jesse Cox, a video that was Blizzcon 2017 is supposed to change a view about a fan interaction that occurred in Blizzcon 2018. Not making sense there dude.

I'm not claiming others consider it fake, I am saying if you wish to conclude it's real there's an avenue to fact-check.

To tweet Ion about a random fan interaction he had two and a half years ago? I can't even remember half the things I said last week and unless Ion has an eidetic memory then he probably won't recall much of the interaction either. That, and if you follow Watcher on twitter you'll know he doesn't actually tweet very often. And for good reason.

It's funny how you claim Occam's Razor in past statements and then try to delve deep into some extra reasoning for why Ion answered that fan the way he did on the showfloor vs another Blizz employee answering for another fan.

Not really. Occam's razor is applicable to this topic as a whole. They won't add the exiles because they look the same as the Blood Elves, and that's why they made Void Elves. That's really all there is to it. It is the arms race from the pro high elf attempting to prove this wrong, that the exiles are distinct, that has led to deeper and deeper dives into what is said, how it's said, who said it, why they said, what they meant and were they hiding anything. I am happy enough to have those arguments but in reality the basic argument listed at the start of this paragraph is satisfactory.

It also doesn't take away what I mentioned: Both were told the truth. As there is no reason to outright lie about anything concerning a video game.

Except in the 2018 rejection he was addressing an audience of tens of thousands through a camera, whereas in the fan interaction he was having a human interaction with a fan. In truth, all he said to the fan was what he said in the rejection.

He just phrased it a lot nicer.

Also you can't open a door that isn't closed, because it's already open And ofc the difference between the fan interaction is one Blizzard employee could confirm dark skins were happening as opposed to trying to confirm something that wasn't happening for 3-4 years. The similarity is they are both genuine answers with a different purpose.

One is confirming something because it's already happening, the other is confirming that a playable option isn't impossible while also clarifying that because they're not in now (BFA) doesn't mean they won't ever be. Both genuine answers for fans that asked genuine question

The context of the response is that a closed door is permanently sealed and can't be reopened, thus no door is closed to Blizzard. Attempting to conflate the dark skin response with the high elf response are two different things. Because dark skins for blood elves were happening, whereas Ion was trying to not ruin this fan's day by restating the rejection as snarkily as he had done so earlier in the year.

The progress was that interaction with the fan, and Afrasiabi's statement, the new system of increased customizations and revamped character creation screen, the acknowledgement of the topic in the latest April Fool's, as well as no blue eyes for blood elves - something which many thought was a forgone conclusion.


That's the progress you keep attempting to ignore as seemingly all statements concerning High Elves have stopped for you since April 2018 during that Q&A as you can do nothing else but keep going back in time whereas everyone's been moving forward and many understand the High Elf topic was not one that was going to be resolved so soon.

None of those were progress. The fan interaction was a gentle letdown and we can't even verify what was said. The Afrasiabi statement was about void elves. The increased customisations are a holistic system for everyone. The April Fool's topic was them poking fun at you for the third or fourth time in a three year period. And no blue eyes for blood elves is unfortunate, but demonstrated that thinking something is going to happen doesn't necessarily equate to it happening if it violates the lore, such as your personal request for fair skin tones on void elves.

What these are discrete events you've cobbled together from your own perspective into a march of progress. The real result was all that has happened is that Ion ruled out blue eyes for blood elves. And he noted the different eye colours as minute, irrelevant differences in the 2018 rejection. In other words, your progress has been capped off by an affirmation of the status quo. Forgive me, but doesn't progress involve at least some genuine forward movement?

If I recall the answer John Hight gave regarding Wildhammer Dwarves was also 'Anything's possible in the future' and we see that now with Shadowlands since Dwarves are an original race and are currently being worked on.

Except they aren't explicitly Wildhammer Dwarves, though you can certainly roleplay a Dwarf with those tattoos that way, and there is a world of difference between adding tattoos to an existing core race and adding skin tones incompatible with the fantasy of the existing allied race, particularly as those skin tones are the core difference between them and their parent race.

When they add Dark Iron skin tones to Dwarves, this particular point may have more weight.

We have yet to see what's coming concerning High Elves as the Void Elf are an Allied Race and thus do not yet know how Blizzard are going to handle it, will they include High Elf options into Void Elves as a mentioned possibility by Afrasiabi or will they have High Elves be a stand-alone option among Void Elves in the Alliance as Ion's answer on the showfloor implied that possibility still exists.

They could make Jaina the Lich Queen tomorrow. That possibility hypothetically exists. You can of course list all the reasons why that won't happen and shouldn't happen, but it is still hypothetically possible. There is a difference between hypothetically possible and genuinely possible.

It's a question we'll have to wait and see, despite you constantly trying to argue as if it's done and dealt with.

I am under no illusions that will be the end of the matter. But it should be a respite once the void elf customisation pass happens. Given they were one of the first allied races, their pass should happen early in the lifecycle of Shadowlands.

To quote the wisdom of a great ancestor, "Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer."

Also, Obelisk was very very confident that blue eyes would come to Blood Elves, so there's already viewable experience with overconfidence there.

To be honest you should have hoped I was proven right. Had I been, I was prepared for you to cite blue eyes as evidence that Blizzard isn't fixated on keeping the races as locked in as they previously had been and that it meant high elf skin tones on Void Elves were more likely.

The corollary of the lore based rejection establishes a principle expressed by Moorgard, who was called up to review the propositions and ensure none violated lore. That if it breaks lore, it isn't happening, no matter how logical a proposition it appears to those pushing it or how popular it is.

If blue eyes are turned into another means of keeping void elves as distinct from blood elves as possible, I can easily accept that as the result.

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I just did the quest to have Quel'Delar with a void elf.
I had never done this quest, by dint of reading in this thread references about her, I said to myself, I have to do it one day.
It was magic, the best moment was when Lor'themar was knocked out by the sword when he wanted to take it.

This thread at least served me to make content that I had not yet done.



Sunwell and Void Elf

The Alliance version is likely non-canon. As with Khadgar wielding atiesh, despite players being able to reassemble the staff in classic, Lady Liadrin now wields Quel'delar.

This means that the Horde version of the quest is as close as possible to what actually happened, although the player would be replaced by Liadrin as the recipient.