Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Aucald]

Jaina with the focussing Iris, an artifact which can be used to destroy the entire planet if you know how, managed a tidal wave, so I don't see the problem.

The problem would be in claiming Jaina had the power to do that, absent the use of the Focusing Iris, etc. etc. Illidan is plenty powerful, but neither he nor Jaina *alone* could be considered planet-killers - that level of power is beyond either of them. Give Khadgar the Focusing Iris, or the Sargerite Keystone, as well as a reason to kill a planet and you'd likely end up with the same results. The power here is mostly coming from the intensely powerful relics being used, though; not the person using them.

[AlmightyGerkin]

It's seen as a war crime because Garrosh nuked the city, without any care or concern for the civilian population nonetheless. Furthermore, Garrosh vowed he would conquer all of Kalimdor for the Horde. He would've attacked Theramore regardless of Jaina's actions. The only ones responsible for Theramore's fall are Garrosh and Thrall, who entrusted all the military power to a crazy warmonger. There's a reason why in BfA Thrall cites Theramore as one of his greatest failures.

Those goblin were not innocents. They were military personnel of the Horde army who went to Zandalar for war purposes.

Find it funny how hypocritical Garrosh was in Cataclysm. Belittles, disowns. chatize and eventually kills Krom'gar for using a bomb to kill night elves during war. Than in Mists does the same thing to Theramore only to use a much bigger bomb

[Varodoc]

Find it funny how hypocritical Garrosh was in Cataclysm. Belittles, disowns. chatize and eventually kills Krom'gar for using a bomb to kill night elves during war. Than in Mists does the same thing to Theramore only to use a much bigger bomb

He also killed Krom'gar for attacking a civilian target (a school), when he does the same thing (Theramore was a large city, as seen in WC3).

[cparle87]

it IS relevant, OP is asking why people didn't like bombing and here it is. Destroying Theramore is 100% justified, using mana bomb or the torture of its civilians isnt'

He argued it was war crimes because civilians were there. I responded that the civilians had been evacuated. He replied something bad happened to them after they left. I responded that's irrelevant to his argument since they weren't there when it was bombed.

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I'm on about SoO when I say that, not Jaina trying to drown it

The whole "dismantle the Horde" thing she tried to get Varian to do?

[AcidicSyn]

Find it funny how hypocritical Garrosh was in Cataclysm. Belittles, disowns. chatize and eventually kills Krom'gar for using a bomb to kill night elves during war. Than in Mists does the same thing to Theramore only to use a much bigger bomb

I think it's supposed to be part of his development. At the start of the war Garrosh is still the "good" Garrosh that we are told exists in so many other timelines. Thus why he executes Krom'gar for lacking honor.

That said, I'm not entirely sure when the crazy switch got flipped inside that particular skull. Maybe it was part of his model update.

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He argued it was war crimes because civilians were there. I responded that the civilians had been evacuated. He replied something bad happened to them after they left. I responded that's irrelevant to his argument since they weren't there when it was bombed.

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The whole "dismantle the Horde" thing she tried to get Varian to do?

It isn't irrelevant though. Had the civies been allowed to escape; mayhaps (and I mean a big mayhaps here) people wouldn't be screaming war crime. Instead those civs were hunted down, captured, and in many cases according to War Crimes, "things" were done to them. The lucky ones were summarily executed.

[Onysquid]

Because the Horde did it. Simple as that. They will forever be the "bad" people.
You bomb and attack their people? They're heroes trying to liberate you, they are just trying to help you? Don't you see, in killing you, I am liberating you.
You do the same? you defend yourself in your lands? you retaliate? You're a bad bad man.
The Horde are the Muslims of World of warcraft.

Infracted.

[Shinrael]

... The Game? The game where we had a line of tanks and soldiers leaving Theramoore? The game where Theramoore set up bases in Southern Barrens and had troops in Durotar?

The game which addressed that orcs felt this was a violation of their treaty with the humans and was to the best of my knowledge, NEVER brought up in the book?


So again... where's your citation that it was?

Can you citate the in-game quest/dialogue text where it is mentioned that Theramore set up those bases?

[Skytotem]

Can you citate the in-game quest/dialogue text where it is mentioned that Theramore set up those bases?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Meet_Me_at_Triumph

[Ardenaso]

It isn't irrelevant though. Had the civies been allowed to escape; mayhaps (and I mean a big mayhaps here) people wouldn't be screaming war crime. Instead those civs were hunted down, captured, and in many cases according to War Crimes, "things" were done to them. The lucky ones were summarily executed.

pretty much this, destroy Theramore without any cowardice and it's all gucci

[Feanoro]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Meet_Me_at_Triumph

I read the quest text, it simply says a land-link between Northwatch and Theramore. It doesn't say Theramore created those bases. At best, you've got Theramore allowing the Alliance to use its ports, but this doesn't provide evidence that Theramore was involving its own personnel.

[Shinrael]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Meet_Me_at_Triumph

"The Alliance, expanding from Northwatch Hold under false information that the tauren were planning an attack, had razed Camp Taurajo." p.29

"Your own people have suffered from the expansion of the Alliance into your territory, unprovoked. If anyone should wish to destroy at the very least Northwatch Hold, it should be the tauren! You say that Jaina Proudmoore assisted you once. Are your loyalties now to her and the Alliance, who have killed your people… or to the mighty Horde and me?” p.34

"The tauren army pressed forward in an attack before, not after the late general Hawthorne had ensured that the civilians of Camp Taurajo would be allowed to leave unharmed. It wasn’t like them." p.88

This and many things were properly addressed many times throughout the book. I play both sides and sympathize with both. I had no feeling of "this isn't right" while reading the book. Everything seemed justified enough. I will stop here as going through the entire book again is quite the task, but you're free to re-read it and set your dissatisfactions straight.

[Skytotem]

I read the quest text, it simply says a land-link between Northwatch and Theramore. It doesn't say Theramore created those bases. At best, you've got Theramore allowing the Alliance to use its ports, but this doesn't provide evidence that Theramore was involving its own personnel.

They are *wearing Theramoore tabards*

Don't be pedantic

[plz delete account]

I was asking a question

WMD used on thousands of civilians who weren't even affiliated with the war effort is why it's considered unjustified. The End.

[Skytotem]

"The Alliance, expanding from Northwatch Hold under false information that the tauren were planning an attack, had razed Camp Taurajo." p.29

"Your own people have suffered from the expansion of the Alliance into your territory, unprovoked. If anyone should wish to destroy at the very least Northwatch Hold, it should be the tauren! You say that Jaina Proudmoore assisted you once. Are your loyalties now to her and the Alliance, who have killed your people… or to the mighty Horde and me?” p.34

"The tauren army pressed forward in an attack before, not after the late general Hawthorne had ensured that the civilians of Camp Taurajo would be allowed to leave unharmed. It wasn’t like them." p.88

This and many things were properly addressed many times throughout the book. I play both sides and sympathize with both. I had no feeling of "this isn't right" while reading the book. Everything seemed justified enough. I will stop here as going through the entire book again is quite the task, but you're free to re-read it and set your dissatisfactions straight.

Fair, but imo the book still treats Theramoore like the attack was unprovoked and never properly addresses Jainas role in the attacks

[Feanoro]

They are *wearing Theramoore tabards*

Don't be pedantic

Not trying to be, that's a quest I did YEARS ago. You could have mentioned the tabards before as your proof, not a quest that in no way states Theramore as directing things.

[Varitok]

He also killed Krom'gar for attacking a civilian target (a school), when he does the same thing (Theramore was a large city, as seen in WC3).

They character assassinated Garrosh in MoP. He at least had Honour before then and I would have loved if him and Varian went out like true warriors on Broken Shore, having some sort of mutual respect for each others warrior prowess.

[Minikin]

Towns attacked EDIT: Had no capital cities but it gave an incomplete picture, as it was unfair to the horde by not including Dazar'alor

Classic: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None
Alliance:
None

Burning Crusade: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None
Alliance:
None

Wrath of the Lich King: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None. [No, wrathgate is not a town]
Minor faction conflict at bases in Borean Tundra
Alliance:
None. [No, undercity doesnot count, it is a consequence of Wrathgate event]
Minor faction conflict at bases in Howling Fjord

Cataclysm H:2 | A:1
Horde:
Astrannar
Stonetalon
Southshore
Alliance:
Taurajo

Mists of Pandaria: H: 1 | A:0
Horde:
Theramore
Alliance:
None. [No, Siege doesnt count, it is a consequence of the horde and alliance going against Garrosh]

WoD: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None.
Alliance:
None

Legion: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None.
Alliance:
None.

BfA: H:9 | A:4
Horde:
Maestra's post
Silverwing refuge
And that one other night elf output by satyrnar cant recall its name
Astrannar
Lordanel
Darnassus
Dolannar
Shadowglen
Brennadam
Alliance:
Deathknell
Brill
Undercity* [Attacked by alliance, wrecked by Horde with blight]
Dazar'alor


Stop the merry go round, its silly at this point.

[bowlink]

Towns attacked EDIT: Had no capital cities but it gave an incomplete picture, as it was unfair to the horde by not including Dazar'alor

Classic: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None
Alliance:
None

Burning Crusade: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None
Alliance:
None

Wrath of the Lich King: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None. [No, wrathgate is not a town]
Minor faction conflict at bases in Borean Tundra
Alliance:
None. [No, undercity doesnot count, it is a consequence of Wrathgate event]
Minor faction conflict at bases in Howling Fjord

Cataclysm H:2 | A:1
Horde:
Astrannar
Stonetalon
Alliance:
Taurajo

Mists of Pandaria: H: 1 | A:0
Horde:
Theramore
Alliance:
None. [No, Siege doesnt count, it is a consequence of the horde and alliance going against Garrosh]

WoD: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None.
Alliance:
None

Legion: H:0 | A:0
Horde:
None.
Alliance:
None.

BfA: H:9 | A:4
Horde:
Maestra's post
Silverwing refuge
And that one other night elf output by satyrnar cant recall its name
Astrannar
Lordanel
Darnassus
Dolannar
Shadowglen
Brennadam
Alliance:
Deathknell
Brill
Undercity* [Attacked by alliance, wrecked by Horde with blight]
Dazar'alor


Stop the merry go round, its silly at this point.

you forgot destroyed towns like:
South shore and all they other towns in hillsbrad
Gilneas proper (Debateble as not part of alliance yet)
Adorhall(the argent crusage, eathen ring and cenarion circle are all trying to cleanse the land and here comes Sylvy blighting it under their noses)
beal modan in the barrens

[Minikin]

you forgot destroyed towns like:
South shore and all they other towns in hillsbrad
Gilneas proper (Debateble as not part of alliance yet)
Adorhall(the argent crusage, eathen ring and cenarion circle are all trying to cleanse the land and here comes Sylvy blighting it under their noses)
beal modan in the barrens

i have southshore in there
gilneas was not exactly alliance until cata and even then the worgen themselves had wrecked it before sylvanas got her hands on it. Upon which it was already lost. So the gilneans became part of the alliance but the land was lost before it became part of the faction.
Andorhall falls in a similar state due to the scourge.
I left out bael modan because it is more an outpost being attacked on foreign lands. For example: No one placed southshore on another factions land. it was a town there, and it was attacked. Bael modan was setup in contested territory after said territory was already debatable at best.

[Shinrael]

Fair, but imo the book still treats Theramoore like the attack was unprovoked and never properly addresses Jainas role in the attacks

As some other users have pointed out, the point that Jaina was trying to make is that Garrosh murdered civilians, which is not something you do even in a war (supposedly). And he did so in a very indiscriminate way without the slightest care and the damage from the Mana bomb was as much as it was only because one of the greatest mages on Azeroth interfered and mitigated some of it (Rhonin). It would have been worse. He also damages the land itself, enrages the elements and so on. Why Garrosh's actions are despised is very well explained. Everyone is guilty in the conflict to some point, but Garrosh is more than simply "guilty". That is the point of the book at least.