Blizzard screws the Loyalists over in Shadowlands

[Yarathir]

Sylvanas wasn't pretending. Anduin himself acknowledged that Genn attacked the Horde and did so against his orders (and chose to do fuck all about it because his blabbering about peace is just empty, hypocritical talk). Meanwhile Genn himself admitted multiple times to both the player and other NPCs that he had fuck all of a clue about what Sylvanas wanted to achieve in Stormheim. He only learned that what she wanted was somehow related to the Val'kyr in the very last Stormheim subzone dedicated to Genn vs Sylvanas questline.

Sylvanas was using it to justify a full-fledged war and genocide; that's called manipulating and playing up fears. If that's okay, then Genn can just also use manipulation and say he knew that she was up to no good all along. Fair's fair, baby!

Still made a deal with an enemy of both factions in order to try and enslave a Titan Watcher btw.

Ah, yes, the typical Alliance response of laughing at something that was explicitly stated by Word of God. Never gets old, it seems.

Who forced her to use a chemical weapon?

[ReVnX]

Do people really have this big of a problem with understanding how enacting a role in an rpg works?
Or in any game for that matter.

You take the role of someone who is loyal to the end?
Is ironic how you can comment on someone's intellect while not understanding this fundamental reasoning for choices in games.

Yeah, Sylvanas fanboys are all true RPers. Also they usually complement that with half-naked female characters in their avatars/signatures.

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

Sure unless you are part of the majority that did not follow the genocidal psychopath. Those people probably would object to being killed, just as you would be objecting over your character being executed after Orgrimmar.

Ah, it's the majority? Fascinating. Pray tell, when did Blizzard release stats on how many players picked which side?

As an Alliance player I approve of your help in reducing the Horde's military strength though. Would have been a lot easier to beat you into submission if you reduced your numbers by more then halve. Keep up the good work.

The loyalists outnumbered the Alliance and traitors combined at the end, but whatever helps you maintain your fanfiction.

Think of that next time you are sent to clear out a settlement of a lesser races like gnolls, troggs, quilboar or to kill unborn children etc.

My favorite will always be slaughtering the Virmen at behest of the Pandaren only for them to then lecture us about peace and tranquility.

[Dazmalak]

Becoming a ghoul to attack people in Stormwind for a month or so is equal to joining Sylvanas and the Maw?

What?

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Then why didn't you take issue with this kind of stuff during.. I don't know- Vanilla? TBC? It has been that way since the two-faction system became a thing in WoW's very alpha.

Did you miss the part where I said WoW's storytelling has always bothered me? I've always enjoyed WoW as a game since I started playing in Vanilla. Back then I wasn't being told how bad I was for being in the Horde or how I need to be a good boy and embrace the unifaction garbage they're trying to push. Either way I can still enjoy the game without enjoying its story.

[Combatbutler]

My favorite will always be slaughtering the Virmen at behest of the Pandaren only for them to then lecture us about peace and tranquility.

Makes sense though, once you have removed what irks you, you have achieved peace and tranquility, people just misunderstand the message ;P

[Yarathir]

In my opinion, I'd love for Sylvanas fans to be able to continue to support her.

But in turn it makes them hostile to both player factions as well as several other factions like the Steamwheedle Cartel and Argent Crusade. (that have no interest in dying)

But they become friendly with a Maw faction, meaning all Maw-related enemies they encounter are friendly to them and all the Covenant mobs become hostile to them. They will get a repeatable PvP and PvE quest to kill Covenant-allied players or NPCs and that is their only method of leveling up. That or farming mobs out in the world while constantly in danger of being killed by either the Horde or Alliance or both.

And maybe at the end, the Sylvanas-loyal player character that earned their Darwin Award many times over gets sacrificed by Sylvanas and the character gets deleted because they're officially dead in-universe.

[Tarba]

Looks like you're about 15 years too late on that complaint and it feels a bit disingenuous that it buds up just now that you can no longer support Sylvanas.

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If Sylvanas can pretend that the Alliance instigated it all, Genn can just pretend he knew Sylvanas was up to something bad and then point to the fact that he found her using an item to ENSLAVE A TITAN WATCHER to prove his case.

(also, 'forced' to attack Gilneas, lol..)

1 - 15 years later I'm still forsaken and still has the right to complain that their story is pure garbage since vanilla. It does not change anything.
2 - that titan watcher is basically a lich king. Except that he is shiny.
3 - it's still the warchief of the horde Garrosh, named warchief by Thrall who demanded the attack on Gilneas.

[Arrashi]

WoW's never allowed that. It allowed some evil actions... if you were a Forsaken... in like two or three zones... in some quests. The entire rest of the time, we're heroes, or at least being assholes to things that are bigger assholes. I'm not sure why some people think Blizzard would suddenly, actually allow you to side with someone very clearly billed a villain right from the pre-patch event. Even back in vanilla your Forskaken character stopped being a dick the moment you left the Tirisfal/Silverpine/Hillsbrad leveling path.

If people want to be teh evulz, they can play actual single-player RPGs that support such wants and needs, not an MMO that laughs at the notion of player agency. Besides, at this point, after Sylvanas has made it very clear in-universe that she doesn't give a shit about anyone following her, I would question both the sanity and sense of self-preservation of people still wanting to lick her boots.

Then what was even the point of making the choice possible in a first place? As i said before adding *This is part where you feel sorry for sadorc" before quest text would solve the issue just fine. Also im not sure where people get whole "licking boots" thing, you lads are having insecurities or something? Is just staying true to being pure chaotic evil logic such alien concept nowadays.

[G3 Ghost]

I vote the loyalists get a mandatory title of "Pawn of the Banshee Queen". They have to keep it until they complete a ridiculously long quest line just called Redemption.

Then, until they complete the quest, they can only group with other loyalists and have no access to anything that is even remotely helpful from NPCs (trading, profession training, etc...).

If they fail to complete the quest before Shadowlands launches, they are killed for treason and their character on launch day is stuck in the Maw and has to complete a scenario to fight their way out.

Then the expansion continues as normal for them except they have a new title like "the Redeemed" or something similar.

There, your choice has real consequences that would fit the true Horde's attitude towards the turncoats AND you get your uniqueness recognized, AND you get a little bit of extra story before you rejoin the Horde.

[Mehrunes]

Are you trying to make the argument that the current Horde is Orgrim's Horde? You may as well say that what the Iron Horde did represents the current Horde.

Is Orgrim viewed negatively by the New Horde? Nope. Instead they named their capital after the guy. Even Grom isn't viewed negatively because his one act of not sucking apparently washed out all the previous instances of him being an utter moron. Besides, Thrall didn't reform how the Horde fundamentally works. And he received the mantle of Warchief directly from Orgrim.

Meanwhile the Iron Horde is from an alternative reality and has squat tho do with the MU Horde. But hey, at least you tried.

[Skayth]

Sylvanas was using it to justify a full-fledged war and genocide; that's called manipulating and playing up fears. If that's okay, then Genn can just also use manipulation and say he knew that she was up to no good all along. Fair's fair, baby!

Genn attacks Horde (stormheim). Genn Breaks an artifact that could have helped the Horde (do we know? Nope. That lantern is a mystery beyond bending val'kyr to her will) Genn purposefully DISOBEYED order from the High King, and Anduin acknowledges this. So what does the Horde do? See that They are not safe from attacks even during a war with a common enemy that is hell bent on destroying the world.

So we come to Bfa Azerite is discovered. It can be weaponized with great destructive potential. Horde sends an operation to harvest it, SI:7 Sabatages and Kills them. Horde reacts.

Sylvannas states that Alliance preaches peace, but where is the proof. THey have done nothing but go back on word, and actively attacked the Horde. Anduin doesnt do jack to Genn. Alliance is now mining Azerite, and they can weaponize it themselves. Alliance doesnt keep their word at all, and all Sylvannas needs to do is point it out.

The Horde preemptively strikes darkshore, and this is VAROKS plan! They didnt need to burn Teldrassil (oh i am against the burning), but it was Varok who didnt end Malfurion's life, which would have ended the conflict. It was a Justifiable War up until the burning of teldrassil. The Alliance has been openly hostile to the Horde till this point.

[Mehrunes]

What's not to like about "sit there, wait to be murdered, get hyped for righteous vengeance, and no payoff because fighting back is bad"?

I don't know, I personally liked the deep wisdom of "we can't attack Trolls while they are sad because that will make us as bad as Sylvanas". One day this will be taught in philosophy classes.

[Arrashi]

Is Orgrim viewed negatively by the New Horde? Nope. Instead they named their capital after the guy. Even Grom isn't viewed negatively because his one act of not sucking apparently washed out all the previous instances of him being an utter moron. Besides, Thrall didn't reform how the Horde fundamentally works. And he received the mantle of Warchief directly from Orgrim.

Meanwhile the Iron Horde is from an alternative reality and has squat tho do with the MU Horde. But hey, at least you tried.

To be fair, they even honor kargath by naming few locations after him.

[Mehrunes]

Can you give an example? Had the gift all along, so couldn't tell the difference.

Sorry, it's only what I read on WoW sites to be the "culmination" of the eye, I haven't played 8.3 yet.

Well, thats what she did. Genn attacked, and she used it against them... exactly like that. Who knew attacking an ally gets the rest of the horde to follow a genocidal freak?

As to the chemical weapons, Ive always been for the plague to be used as a proper weapon. Why? it usually saves forsaken lives. The reason why Garrosh hates it is because of the wrathgate and it not being "honorable." Its a weapon, use the weapon.

Garrosh has never even commented on the Wrathgate from what I recall. And he did allow the Forsaken to use accepted strains of Blight in other zones. He only forbade them from using it in Gilneas. Because he wanted the Gilneas campaign to become a graveyard for the Forsaken. That's also why he insisted on the idiocy of attacking through the chokepoint at the gate instead of doing what Sylvanas did and sail around.

[Feanoro]

And add the insane human focus, the Jaina cop out, she does not deserve her title after what she did to her homeland and father. Anduins brilliant strategic moves, lets attack undercity, oh they have blight who would have guessed, lets attack the zandalari that will surely not drive them truly to the horde and lets not push the attack while they are down.... I mean how stupid can you get.

BFA was a story nightmare.

I could add:

- Night Elves slaughtered, Saurfang thinks he did nothing wrong

- Teldrassil burns, blues rush to comfort the Horde players that everything will be fine

- The Night Warrior cringefest. "ThIs poWaR Is tOo much!"
-- fails to stop a zombie with a bow
-- only mildly inconveniences the Horde because they no longer give a shit about Darkshore
-- completely fails to address Ashenvale
-- sits on ass after Darkshore
-- setup to be evil crazy for not wanting to bend over and take it from the Horde
-- taking back your own ruined land is somehow "got vengeance"
-- fuck you, your dead are raised into the Horde or damned to WoW hell

- No setup for Uldir

- Horde version of Waycrest Manor is canon

- Gorak Tul built up then completely tossed

- Stormsong zone was a clusterfuck
-- Kul Tirans have been here for centuries, but only found this fertile area a generation ago
-- Brennadam, yet another completely unanswered Horde atrocity

- Alliance is winning the war... according to a Horde only event.

- Multiple Horde only events/questlines, with no Alliance equivalent.

- Azshara is mean, so let's forgive the Horde yet again, with Varian style empty tough talk

- Alliance magically goes from winning to can't beat the NuScourge even with Vol... er, Saurfang's rebels. Damn nice of us to save the world for the Horde to destroy. AGAIN.

[Yarathir]

So we come to Bfa Azerite is discovered. It can be weaponized with great destructive potential. Horde sends an operation to harvest it, SI:7 Sabatages and Kills them. Horde reacts.

You mean the League of Explorers discover Azerite and Horde attacks them so they can harvest it to turn into weapons.

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Is Orgrim viewed negatively by the New Horde? Nope. Instead they named their capital after the guy. Even Grom isn't viewed negatively because his one act of not sucking apparently washed out all the previous instances of him being an utter moron. Besides, Thrall didn't reform how the Horde fundamentally works. And he received the mantle of Warchief directly from Orgrim.

Meanwhile the Iron Horde is from an alternative reality and has squat tho do with the MU Horde. But hey, at least you tried.

I'm so glad to be acknowledged by you since false equivalences are your forte.

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1 - 15 years later I'm still forsaken and still has the right to complain that their story is pure garbage since vanilla. It does not change anything.

So?

2 - that titan watcher is basically a lich king. Except that he is shiny.

What?

3 - it's still the warchief of the horde Garrosh, named warchief by Thrall who demanded the attack on Gilneas.

So now his authority as a Warchief matters. But not when he forbids her from using the plague, ey?

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I could add:

- Night Elves slaughtered, Saurfang thinks he did nothing wrong

- Teldrassil burns, blues rush to comfort the Horde players that everything will be fine

- The Night Warrior cringefest. "ThIs poWaR Is tOo much!"
-- fails to stop a zombie with a bow
-- only mildly inconveniences the Horde because they no longer give a shit about Darkshore
-- completely fails to address Ashenvale
-- sits on ass after Darkshore
-- setup to be evil crazy for not wanting to bend over and take it from the Horde
-- taking back your own ruined land is somehow "got vengeance"
-- fuck you, your dead are raised into the Horde or damned to WoW hell

- No setup for Uldir

- Horde version of Waycrest Manor is canon

- Gorak Tul built up then completely tossed

- Stormsong zone was a clusterfuck
-- Kul Tirans have been here for centuries, but only found this fertile area a generation ago
-- Brennadam, yet another completely unanswered Horde atrocity

- Alliance is winning the war... according to a Horde only event.

- Multiple Horde only events/questlines, with no Alliance equivalent.

- Azshara is mean, so let's forgive the Horde yet again, with Varian style empty tough talk

- Alliance magically goes from winning to can't beat the NuScourge even with Vol... er, Saurfang's rebels. Damn nice of us to save the world for the Horde to destroy. AGAIN.

Don't forget that Tyrande was also nowhere to be seen when Azshara was in the picture because she "had her vengeance." Whew.

Also, he's not just some undead with a bow. He's like.. real good. So much that even the lofty High Elves complimented him. That sure makes him special! I guess..

[Dazmalak]

In my opinion, I'd love for Sylvanas fans to be able to continue to support her.

But in turn it makes them hostile to both player factions as well as several other factions like the Steamwheedle Cartel and Argent Crusade. (that have no interest in dying)

But they become friendly with a Maw faction, meaning all Maw-related enemies they encounter are friendly to them and all the Covenant mobs become hostile to them. They will get a repeatable PvP and PvE quest to kill Covenant-allied players or NPCs and that is their only method of leveling up. That or farming mobs out in the world while constantly in danger of being killed by either the Horde or Alliance or both.

And maybe at the end, the Sylvanas-loyal player character that earned their Darwin Award many times over gets sacrificed by Sylvanas and the character gets deleted because they're officially dead in-universe.

So long as I can grief the shit out of passive aggressive little bitches like you in game I'd be more than happy to participate in such a one sided affair.

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas was using it to justify a full-fledged war and genocide; that's called manipulating and playing up fears. If that's okay, then Genn can just also use manipulation and say he knew that she was up to no good all along. Fair's fair, baby!

It doesn't matter what she was using it for. She could have used it as a justification to remove the limbs and guts of every Alliance child and to then use their bodies as meat toboggans at the Horde winter Olympics. The fact remains that despite your fascinating attempts at claiming the contrary, Sylvanas wasn't pretending that Alliance instigated conflict. For god's sake, as stated by Blizzard, the very reason why we needed the Class Orders had to lead the charge the fight against Legion was because the Alliance and the Horde were at each other's throats. And then came Before the Storm, where we learned that the factions needed a ceasefire for even a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. I wonder what ceasefire means...

Still made a deal with an enemy of both factions in order to try and enslave a Titan Watcher btw.

Helya still wasn't absolute nobody to us at the time, no matter how many times you repeat this falsehood. And, again, as the Warchief it's on her to determine who's the enemy of the Horde. If she wanted to team up with Helya that's pretty much it for the Horde in regards to that topic.

Who forced her to use a chemical weapon?

Moving the goalposts right after denying Word of God? Hmm, I think you skipped some steps.

[Raisei]

It most certainly was a justification. It's literally how she justified the war to Saurfang. You are, surprisingly, confusing justification with main motivation. And the reason why he got to that conclusion rests personally on Genn and his character, combined with the fact that he's close to Anduin. It wasn't presented from the perspective of the Horde wanting vengeance for X, it was presented from the Alliance perspective and how the Alliance member behind Stormheim would continue pressing for war. As such, you are grasping at straws in regards to Dalaran and Taurajo.

The fact that you are STILL taking her words as fact is astounding. Figured even with your bias you would have gotten the message by now, but nope. No chance apparently.

She is in that very scene selling the war to Saurfang, because she wants him to plan it. He is sceptical, she has to convince him, so she pulls this bullshit as "justification", but the truth is that it is an excuse that she is using to start the war she needs for her goal of killing as many people as possible. That is all there is to it.

She knows very well that Genn attacked her personally because of their past, but she is making it Alliance vs. Horde, because it suits her needs.

[Combatbutler]

Also, he's not just some undead with a bow. He's like.. real good. So much that even the lofty High Elves complimented him. That sure makes him special! I guess..

He was complimented by a human, now that makes anyone in the warcraft universe truly special

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Order_Must...stored_(quest)
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Blightcaller_Cometh

An agent of the Forsaken? The champion of the Banshee Queen?

<King Varian Wrynn grimaces.>

Ridiculous...





No. It... NO! How? An agent of the Forsaken? The CHAMPION of the Banshee Queen???

<Highlord Bolvar Fordragon slumps in defeat.>


Do you know how many ranger lords exist in this world? How many human ranger lords have ever existed?

Nathanos' accomplishments were unprecedented. He was a tactical genius, responsible for Alliance victories spanning a decade of conflict.

And now... the champion of the Forsaken.

No. This cannot be. Order must be restored.

Gather an army, <name>. Return to the Plagues with your army and destroy the Blightcaller.

I wish you luck, <name>. Truly, you will need it for this battle.




It is a tragedy. I think... I believe that our kind is cursed, <name>. We are cursed to lose our greatest warriors; our most noble heroes; our most gifted scholars.

We are indebted to you and I assure you, <name>, wherever Nathanos Marris is now, he smiles down upon you.