With Blizz Giving Us What We Are Asking For, Is it Time for 10-Man?

[Lucetia]

I don’t want this to be a debate, I’ve taken a poll on Area 52 and it was 74% agreed, I’m sure most realms will have the same outcome or close enough.

Here's the first problem with the person who made the original post. There's no way they polled all of Area 52 and got that percentage. What they did was maybe polled a select few who fit the agenda they wanted. In fact, I play on Area 52 and that's the first time I've every heard of any "poll".

Using percentages to try and persuade your goal doesn't do anything since most of the time percentages are either heavily skewed or just made up.

As for 10 man's you can raid as a 10 man group right now. Evidently there aren't that many who are doing it or Blizzard would've said "Hey, let's add that to a mythic rating too". Instead Blizzard chose 20 man so that way people aren't excluded from raids and stuff if they are FOTM as it was back during Cata and MoP.

Overall though, 10 mans are still in the game and pretty viable. So not sure why the person you quoted thinks they need to come back when they never left. In case you, or anyone else didn't know, all raids flex between 10-30. So you can easily do 10 if you want or go over that if you want to invite more.

[Glazey]

10man Mythic isn't really feasible without completely butchering some aspect of either raid or class design. Either the raid has to be designed to not make utility as important as it is (which dumbs down fights massively) or classes have to become further homogenized than what we saw in MoP (which is boring)

[TEHPALLYTANK]

You can still, and always could, raid 10 man?

Until 10man mythic is added, no, this still isn't true.

[Jigga93]

10m Mythic isn't feasible because there are 39 specs. they would have to butcher fights mechanics to make Mythic 10m possible. Mythic is fine the way it is. you can flex raid heroic

[WowIsDead64]

...

I wouldn't be so optimistic. It's too early to say, that they've started to give us, what we want. Remember? Flying is still gated behind at lest 2 months in 9.2. It's not first time, when current xpack fails and players start to claim, that THIS TIME Blizzard should give us, what we want. But it has never happened, except may be Legion, but even Legion has equal amount of negative changes, we still suffer from. The greatest example - is MOP. It was first time, when after losing 2.5M subs in Cata Blizzard should have fixed things to recover. But they only made worse.

[Exkrementor]

10 man raiding is not gonna work. You already have specs nobody wants in a 20 man raid.
Here is how EVERY 10 man raid would look: The 2 strongest tanks (probably Paladin, Monk or Demonhunter) 1 Holypaladin and the second strongest healing class (probably disc, sometimes shaman or druid, never monk though) and 6 DPS: Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue and then 2 fotm specs (Shadow, Warri, DK, Moonkin).

If you play a bad or mediocre melee spec you are not gonna raid.

10 man raiding was completely broken. If your 10 man raid in MoP had no prot pally and disc priest the raids were twice as hard. Horridon without disc was retarded. (inb4 someone tells me how their guild killed Horridon with 2 Resto shamans. Nobody cares about your worldrank 3000 guild, mate!)

[cparle87]

I don't know how that'd work with current boss mechanics. Certain mechanics would have to be reduced in number after a certain point, so as an example, taking 16 players instead of 17 players might be better for cheesing an overlap, even if that 17th player is fantastic. Doesn't seem like mythic to me - it seems cheap.

I certainly sympathise though - my guild died due to lack of recruitment options after Sire died. We'll hopefully make a comeback in 9.2 on a realm with more than 50 people on it, but it's a crap situation overall.

Exactly this. This is why the highest difficulty is hard locked at 20. So we don't get shenanigans like this. I still vividly remember the "fun" in SoO of groups refusing to go over a certain size because they found alleged "sweet spots" in raid size that supposedly made things easier.

[Niwes]

tbh:
i believe 10m mythic raiding will return in 10.0. at latest in 11.0.

tbh:
do i want it? no, not really.
do i think we need it? no, not really.
do i think its a good idea? no, not really.
will it bring shenanigans with it? for sure.

but i nonetheless believe it will return. by the simple fact, that i analyzed the whole Blizz REST Api. in way more deep, than Bellular did, a month or so ago. and what i saw, cleary shows a trend. Blizz will see that trend too. and at some point there is that inevitable point, where 20m organizing is a such rare and complex thing, just cause of the sheer amount of nonexisting players, when m10 becomes inevitable. thats the point when Blizz feel forced to reintroduce it, to protect their investment, by giving myth design effort a reason, by keeping a big enough target audience.

imo it will happen. if not in 10.0 at latest in 11.0. but thats just my assumption/prophecy.

[sunxsera]

i really loved 10 man mythic ( hc back then ) in MoP.
I also think 10 man teams would be awesome for rtwf - there would be a lot more competition.

But it won't happen

[Phaqfu]

Were always going back and forth on 10 man, 20 man. Why not just try to push for 15 man and meet in the middle?

[YourPalFleisch]

I think what's important here is to continue gatekeeping content people want to experience so that the game continues to die a slow death.

Down with 10M mythic raiding!

[Niwes]

10 man raiding is not gonna work. You already have specs nobody wants in a 20 man raid.
Here is how EVERY 10 man raid would look: The 2 strongest tanks (probably Paladin, Monk or Demonhunter) 1 Holypaladin and the second strongest healing class (probably disc, sometimes shaman or druid, never monk though) and 6 DPS: Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue and then 2 fotm specs (Shadow, Warri, DK, Moonkin).

If you play a bad or mediocre melee spec you are not gonna raid.

10 man raiding was completely broken. If your 10 man raid in MoP had no prot pally and disc priest the raids were twice as hard. Horridon without disc was retarded. (inb4 someone tells me how their guild killed Horridon with 2 Resto shamans. Nobody cares about your worldrank 3000 guild, mate!)

lets assume the following:

lets say less percentage of ppls play mythic (20m) mode, than the normalized percentage of every classes representation. what do you think will happen?

an extreme example:

lets say you just have 4 classes in wow. 1 tank 1 heal 1 rangedps 1 meleedps. now lets say all 4 classes are evenly played ovrall in game. 25% play tank, 25% play heal and so on. now lets say the whole game has 1000 players overall. this means 250 rdps 250 mdps and so on. now lets say we have 4man raiding (instead of 10 or 20, because we assume just 1000 players overall). this means we need 1 tank 1 heal 1 rdps 1 mdps. now lets say 10% of the playerbase do myth raiding. means 100 ppls. means 25 rdps 25 mdps and so on. that 25 mdps are 2,5% of the whole playerbase, 10% of the whole playerbase play myth. the game overall has 25% mdps.

this means: there are 25% players playing mdps in the whole game. but only 10% players in whole game play mythic mode raiding, and 2,5% of them „should be melee“.

see, what i mean ? at this point, when the whole myth raiding community is lower than the represantation of 1 class in game, it becomes relatively nonrelevant.

in short: it will be a very low and rare problem.

you are right in „no one takes i.e. a monk (or class xyz) with him“. is this a prolem for that 1 (extremely said) monk player that wanna raid myth? yes, ofc. but is this a problem for the game, or myth raiding, as a whole ? no.


btw:
the real values in wow would be 8,33% for every class representation (12 classes). this means it becomes more and more nonrelevant the more the myth raiding community falls deeper than 8,33% of the whole player base. i believe in SL the myth raiding community is <5%. and since 5% is a good less than 8,33% it already will not be that huge of a problem in 10m raiding, when some specific classes/specs are not taken.

[Amnaught]

Wait what? People actually want 10 mans back? Just play heroic.

[MidnyteTV]

Oh god not another 10 man raiding thread....

[Natureseer]

it would be in their better interest to improve the rewards of m+ rather than bring back the hardest difficulty on 10 man. forcing the hardest difficulty into multiple raid sizes would only make development and implementation more difficult, which would be worse for everyone. (i raided 10 man mythic during cata.)

[kaminaris]

Wait what? People actually want 10 mans back? Just play heroic.

Its not that people want 10 man back, people that lost 10 mans which were like 70% of entire raiding community on highest level quit the game or played M+ when it came out.

Heroic does not exist for this people, its like saying a burger fan he should be eating soy burgers instead because classic burger was removed from menu.

Also nobody gives a fuck about balance anymore, the only people that still do overdosed copium long time ago.

So the only two options blizzard has is to either cling to their idiotic "nobody-feels-epic" 20 man logistic nightmare and let the raiding community die or make it flex/10man.

[mojusk]

id rather have flex.
BUT it should be balanced in a way so that a 20 man setup would ALWAYS without a doubt be optimal, both bossstrat wise and loot ratio wise.
so we dont get the issue of boss 1 optimal setup is 10 players boss 2 30 players, boss 3 18 etc. But it will still be possible to raid if we only have 18 players one day (maybe not cutting edge progress), and if the next day theres 22 players, we dont have to bench 2.

[Goatfish]

10 man raiding is not gonna work. You already have specs nobody wants in a 20 man raid.
Here is how EVERY 10 man raid would look: The 2 strongest tanks (probably Paladin, Monk or Demonhunter) 1 Holypaladin and the second strongest healing class (probably disc, sometimes shaman or druid, never monk though) and 6 DPS: Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue and then 2 fotm specs (Shadow, Warri, DK, Moonkin).

If you play a bad or mediocre melee spec you are not gonna raid.

10 man raiding was completely broken. If your 10 man raid in MoP had no prot pally and disc priest the raids were twice as hard. Horridon without disc was retarded. (inb4 someone tells me how their guild killed Horridon with 2 Resto shamans. Nobody cares about your worldrank 3000 guild, mate!)

I would disagree with this based off experience. Even if you only looked at the top 200 guilds, the majority of them are still going to play the class/spec they want to play. Other comps might make the fight slightly easier, but it's not like the fights will be impossible. Unless a spec is completely trash, it will probably find its way into the top 1000 players.

Also what? Monk is currently one of the strongest healers,as far as raw hps goes we are currently on top by a large margin, and that's looking to get only stronger next patch.

[muto]

Wait what? People actually want 10 mans back? Just play heroic.

Heroic is not a challenge, and 20 man mythic always winds up with those 2 or 3 players you're always trying to replace, which has been the case in every Mythic guild I've been in. In a 10 man it's a lot easier to get 10 players that pull their weight. It's also more personal in a 10 man. It doesn't feel like a classroom.

[kranur]

The reason they went back to a fixed size for the hardest difficulty was so that they can effectively design cool encounters without having to worry about a size being easier than another, which inevitably is the case no matter what they do.

I don't see them going back to 10 and 20 modes nor do I think they should.
The only way to make it fair is to remove 20 and make it 10 instead but then where do you draw the line? Why not turn into 5 man when people will also inevitably start complaining that they can't gather 10 good people? Why not make it solo?

And to the final point, there is the flex mode, yeah it's not the high end, but there's no reason for the high end to not require those extra miles.