Why do I need to support the Horde rebuilding Tirisfal as an Alliance player?

[Jackstraw]

Or Blizz figured that all that is remembered and not rehashed as it would be tedious. The fact that people apparently missed all that though is likely part of why they feel they have to do "war is bad" stories.

Saying that the Horde's actions had nothing to do with it is absurd. Even under the most generous assumptions, Varian was inclined to believe the Twilight Hammer actions as something the Horde would do based on his knowledge and experience with them. It is far more likely and believable that Varian, who had absolutely no reason to think well of the Horde, would have fully considered them. Thus, whatever the case, that then means those actions do in fact contribute. This shouldn't need to be spelled out by Blizz.

So basically the Horde did not do it, but it's their fault regardless.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Or Blizz figured that all that is remembered and not rehashed as it would be tedious. The fact that people apparently missed all that though is likely part of why they feel they have to do "war is bad" stories.

Saying that the Horde's actions had nothing to do with it is absurd. Even under the most generous assumptions, Varian was inclined to believe the Twilight Hammer actions as something the Horde would do based on his knowledge and experience with them. It is far more likely and believable that Varian, who had absolutely no reason to think well of the Horde, would have fully considered them. Thus, whatever the case, that then means those actions do in fact contribute. This shouldn't need to be spelled out by Blizz.

Varian was inclined to believe it was the horde because he has a racist streak a mile wide he thought the same thing when the twilight hammer attacked there peace meeting again theramore even after horde members saved defended him and anduin and even after he captures and interrogates Goronna and has Veleria verify that it was all twilight hammer first hand he still wants to blame the horde because orcs have “evil in there blood”.

His mind was well made up about the horde and there was nothing they could do to change it at the time not even saving his own son got them any leeway.

[VladlTutushkin]

Varian was inclined to believe it was the horde because he has a racist streak a mile wide he thought the same thing when the twilight hammer attacked there peace meeting again theramore even after horde members saved defended him and anduin and even after he captures and interrogates Goronna and has Veleria verify that it was all twilight hammer first hand he still wants to blame the horde because orcs have “evil in there blood”.

His mind was well made up about the horde and there was nothing they could do to change it at the time not even saving his own son got them any leeway.

You know, perhaps Horde may change the mind of the Alliance about their habits if they stop turning every war they wage into one continuous war crime with full endorsement of the elites and command, and perhaps even consider not being standoffish assholes (like Garrosh when he told night elves to go die in the ditch when they asked him to investigate a massacre of druid delegation).

Varian was no saint and had his biases firmly set but they did not sprung up from nothing. In Thrall’s mind his gladiatorial enslavement was justification enough to exact revenge on Dreadmoore and all humans in his vicinity, so why Varian shouldnt feel the same?

Plus Dreadmoore was a renegade and a schemer who did his things behind Therenas back, while arena that enslaved Varian was sanctioned by the Horde in general , as far as i know.

Basically - maybe they should realise that there is indeed a perception of Horde that came up FOR A REASON and sometimes it pays off being more diplomatic? And even if you HAVE to fight you shouldnt… i dont know, butcher civilians while their children watch and commit various other war crimes? Because in that case when war ends you will have far less lingering hatred.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You know, perhaps Horde may change the mind of the Alliance about their habits if they stop turning every war they wage into one continuous war crime with full endorsement of the elites and command, and perhaps even consider not being standoffish assholes (like Garrosh when he told night elves to go die in the ditch when they asked him to investigate a massacre of druid delegation).

The horde at the time didn’t have any recent war crimes under there belt and weren’t being standoffish Thrall was doing every thing he could to meet the alliance on good terms and at every turn Varian was a raging racist towards him and the other orcs.

Even the night elf massacres were being looked into under thrall which is why the second one happens when the cows are trying to settle the matter and make peace.

Garrosh also never tells the night elfs to Sod off he lets the cows continue there peace actions which started under thrall and the first thing he hears about the second attack is Carine barging in and challenging him to a death match after wrongly accusing garrosh of being behind it.

Varian was no saint and had his biases firmly set but they did not sprung up from nothing. In Thrall’s mind his gladiatorial enslavement was justification enough to exact revenge on Dreadmoore and all humans in his vicinity, so why Varian shouldnt feel the same?

Thrall never used his enslavement to justify revenge all he wanted to do was be free and he says as much to Dreadmoore not choosing revenge until after the head of his human friend is thrown at his feet.

[DatToffer]

I have no idea what is going on in the minds of Blizzards story writes, I really do not.
It was just one expansion ago that we fought to destroy UC, now we help the forsaken to restore Lordaeron despite nothing has changed in the meantime?

I will not even start with all the other problems the alliance story ONCE AGAIN has and that only seems to be getting worse every single patch, but the whole PREMISE of this questline is so dumb, I ONCE AGAIN can't believe somebody approved it to be released.

Because Mr Dog sent you as a spy and you're the goodest boi in the Alliance.

Apparently the best way to spy on the actions of your enemy is to participate to these actions.

[VladlTutushkin]

The horde at the time didn’t have any recent war crimes under there belt and weren’t being standoffish Thrall was doing every thing he could to meet the alliance on good terms and at every turn Varian was a raging racist towards him and the other orcs.

Even the night elf massacres were being looked into under thrall which is why the second one happens when the cows are trying to settle the matter and make peace.

Garrosh also never tells the night elfs to Sod off he lets the cows continue there peace actions which started under thrall and the first thing he hears about the second attack is Carine barging in and challenging him to a death match after wrongly accusing garrosh of being behind it.

Thrall never used his enslavement to justify revenge all he wanted to do was be free and he says as much to Dreadmoore not choosing revenge until after the head of his human friend is thrown at his feet.

Garrosh told night elves that he wouldnt punish horde troops if it turns out that they were the ones who massacred the druids. Pretty aggressive attitude even if he was just posturing.

[RedBrood]

Horde players crying, Alliance players crying. About what you may ask? Pretty much the same thing lol. Best part is, depending on how you look at it, both sides are 100% correct and there is no way to really prove the other side wrong.

[Feanoro]

Varian was inclined to believe it was the horde because he has a racist streak a mile wide

So basically none of the shit the Horde had pulled under Thrall and was merrily continuing without pause up until the war declaration had anything to do with it. Nah, Varian was just racist.

Bullshit. Anything, ANYTHING to excuse the Horde, eh?

Thrall never used his enslavement to justify revenge

Mainly because he understood WHY the orcs were in those camps, namely the Old Horde slaughtering their way up a continent, and the only choices in dealing with them were execution or imprisonment. No sane leader would have allowed them to go their merry way, to gain strength for another round of massacres.

The Horde under Thrall has no such excuse. There was absolutely no justification to them kidnapping and enslaving Alliance civilians for harsh labor, sick experiments, and arenas. Thrall did nothing to stop any of that. The Horde's slave arenas should have been particularly a sore point for Thrall, since he knew what that was like first hand. As Warchief, he was responsible for the Horde. Either he knew and was therefore fully complicit, or didn't and was therefore incompetent.

The horde at the time didn’t have any recent war crimes under there belt

I can just see a big sign outside Org, with space to change numbers:

"Welcome to Orgrimmar! No war crimes or atrocities in # days!"

- - - Updated - - -

Basically - maybe they should realise that there is indeed a perception of Horde that came up FOR A REASON and sometimes it pays off being more diplomatic? And even if you HAVE to fight you shouldnt… i dont know, butcher civilians while their children watch and commit various other war crimes? Because in that case when war ends you will have far less lingering hatred.

Remember my hypothesis that some Horde fans think enjoying the villains makes them bad people? It would certainly explain the mental gymnastics they go through to ignore the Horde's actions and pretend they're the victims and underdogs.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Garrosh told night elves that he wouldnt punish horde troops if it turns out that they were the ones who massacred the druids. Pretty aggressive attitude even if he was just posturing.

When/where does this take place? I remember garrosh telling Carine that he didn’t care and wouldn’t do any thing along with wishing he was the one who did it but I can’t actually remember any instances of garrosh talking to any night elfs.

[VladlTutushkin]

When/where does this take place? I remember garrosh telling Carine that he didn’t care and wouldn’t do any thing along with wishing he was the one who did it but I can’t actually remember any instances of garrosh talking to any night elfs.

Or maybe when he told that to Cairne, which is the same shit, so it does not excuse him. For all his talk of "they left me no choice but to start a huge war" he never really was into solving it peacefully. Well, good thing he rotted in Hell for that.

[Iain]

I do sorta like the sound of Covenants replacing the two current factions. It would be a lot of work on Blizzard's end, but allowing individual arcs and stories to grow and intermingle sounds more interesting than being given two choices that more or less become grayer with each patch release. It would also promote a shift away from "cosmic big-bad threatens the world/universe" in favor of smaller, but no less exciting world events instead.

Yes! All of this.

And this ball will truly start rolling when the Covenants are in competition with each other. Of course letting this affect lore would be too much. But more like that the covenants that lose for that weekly effort, will be delayed in their campaign and their part of the story won't develop as fast as the winning covenant.

Or a plot that's already set, but the details are still up for grabs. It was Covenant A who backstabbed Muradin while Covenant B won in the battle against big bad boss while Covenant C failed to do anything at all.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So basically none of the shit the Horde had pulled under Thrall and was merrily continuing without pause up until the war declaration had anything to do with it. Nah, Varian was just racist.

No some of the hordes actions reinforced Varians racist views like his time as a gladiator.

But for the most part Varians views are based on racism. When the TH attacks he blames the orcs based off of nothing other then then having “evil in there blood” even after they defend him and anduin. When both his prisoner and Veleria tell him it was the TH he refuses to believe the horde wasn’t involved again based off of nothing. He then repeats this every time another TH attack it any thing else happens he always blames the orcs even if they had nothing to do with it.

Bullshit. Anything, ANYTHING to excuse the Horde, eh?

there isn’t even any thing to excuse in this case all of the events that lead up to the Cata war are done by the TH or legion and are just attributed to the horde when they weren’t actually to blame.

You cant even say the horde was being undiplomatic during most of these events as for every one but the last thrall just says the claims are baseless and offers Varian cooperation looking into them and even when he tells Varian to Sod off after the last TH attack he still approves of the cows looking into it to smooth things over which leads to the attack under garrosh.

- - - Updated - - -

Or maybe when he told that to Cairne, which is the same shit, so it does not excuse him. For all his talk of "they left me no choice but to start a huge war" he never really was into solving it peacefully. Well, good thing he rotted in Hell for that.

Well you could say Garrosh’s diplomatic endeavours were always doomed to fail he is completely right when he says he had no choice other then war as the war was put into motion By Varian while Thrall was in charge and Varians starts the war before the garrosh makes any actual actions against the alliance.

In all likelyhood the war would have happens either way and likely would have been started by Garrosh but it never got to that point as Varian struck first.

[Aydinx2]

No, you're not asking for anything. If your customers are so narrow minded that they only accept one medium they lose any right to complain about the story they refused to even read.

Teacher: "Debbie, all your homework answers were wrong."
Debbie: "None of the information was in the video you showed us."
Teacher: "It was in the book I instructed you to study for the test."
Debbie: "If it's not in the video we watched in class it doesn't exist to me."
Teacher: "Well, here's your 0."

This is such a weird take.

To begin with, the comparison to studying is stupid. Playing videogames for entertainment is not comparable to studying for a class. In fact, in classes the books are what the classes use primarily with videos being at best supplemental. You don't join a class to only watch videos. There is no class where watching videos is the goal. The goal is learning and books and videos are used to achieve that goal.

If the class was about cinema/writing for television series and used almost exclusively videos to educate, then maybe your comparison would come close to being reasonabl

And no, someone is not "narrow minded" for not reading books about a videogame. Nobody is only accepting the game as a medium by saying the books don't exist. But when the game is the primary driver of the lore and what most events take place in, then new characters and important motivation should be in the game. It is literally the most consumed World of Warcraft media, being miles ahead of the books. You're literally telling people to pay extra money and spend time studying to understand why something is happening in media they are already paying monthly for.

TL;DR: Really weak attempt to make non-book readers look stupid or ignorant. Big projection.

- - - Updated - - -

No some of the hordes actions reinforced Varians racist views like his time as a gladiator.

But for the most part Varians views are based on racism. When the TH attacks he blames the orcs based off of nothing other then then having “evil in there blood” even after they defend him and anduin. When both his prisoner and Veleria tell him it was the TH he refuses to believe the horde wasn’t involved again based off of nothing. He then repeats this every time another TH attack it any thing else happens he always blames the orcs even if they had nothing to do with it.

there isn’t even any thing to excuse in this case all of the events that lead up to the Cata war are done by the TH or legion and are just attributed to the horde when they weren’t actually to blame.

You can even say the horde was being undiplomatic during most of these events as for every one but the last thrall just says the claims are baseless and offers Varian cooperation looking into them and even when he tells Varian to Sod off after the last TH attack he still approves of the cows looking into it to smooth things over which leads to the attack under garrosh.

- - - Updated - - -



Well you could say Garrosh’s diplomatic endeavours were always doomed to fail he is completely right when he says he had no choice other then war as the war was out into motion By Varian while Thrall was in charge and Varians starts the war before the garrosh makes any actual actions against the alliance.

In all likelyhood the war would have happens either way and likely would have been started by Garrosh but it never got to that point as Varian struck first.

There would be less racism against the Horde and primarily the Orcs if they didn't keep proving the racist views were justified. Maybe their actions under Mannoroth's Blood could've been justified as being corrupted, but then they kept committing atrocities and genocide while fully under control of their own actions. They are literally on Genocide 3, and I'm not sure that I didn't forget any. And that's not counting the fact that Orcs keep destroying the lands they inhabit. Sure Durotar wasn't great to begin with, but any new land they got control of in Cata and later they quickly destroy.

It's weird how people keep calling the Horde "Noble Savages" when there is no proof of them being in any way noble. Even the Tauren, which are considered the most peaceful and noble of the Horde races, took part in Garrosh and Sylvanas' atrocities. They are almost a bigger threat to themselves than to the Alliance.

Even if you go for the "that was their leaders abusing power" argument, why is it always the Horde leaders who almost destroy either the planet or all of reality? At this point the Alliance could attempt genocide against the Orcs and they would be able to bring up good arguments for it.

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The horde at the time didn’t have any recent war crimes under there belt

Not a great argument. Especially when they went on to commit more war crimes than they have ever before.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Mr Dog sent you as a spy and you're the goodest boi in the Alliance.

Apparently the best way to spy on the actions of your enemy is to participate to these actions.

Not sure why people who don't read quest text bother to comment on forums about what happens during quests.

It is very clear that Calia knows you're an Alliance player (proven by the fact that she tells Genn so). And in exchange for the help she agrees to withdraw Forsaken troops out of Gilneas. Genn had expected some success but he's surprised by the massive victory he gained. Most people think the result of this questline is a victory for both sides, but the Alliance won HARD.

1. we installed an Alliance character in a Horde council
2. we earned goodwill with the Forsaken
3. we got an agreement to move Forsaken out of Gilneas
4. the blight is gone so which is good in general (threat is removed from the area that the Alliance wants to have)

and that's not counting the fact that Lillian Voss, in many ways an Alliance character, is also on the council. Bolvar, also an Alliance character, helped rid the Horde of a bad leader and stopped her from destroying reality. A lot of the influential characters on the Horde side is now sympathetic to the Alliance.

BfA and Shadowlands were just Alliance victory after Alliance victory. It is honestly insane that there are still Horde NPC's who didn't just straight up switch sides.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There would be less racism against the Horde and primarily the Orcs if they didn't keep proving the racist views were justified.

your right it is absolutely just racism against orcs, even the undercity he blames on the orcs even though they had nothing to do with how the forsaken operated.

And while is racism is justified from his experiences from WC1-3 nothing thralls horde does justify’s it further they were on more or less good behaviour from classic-cata as far as WC1-3 esc actions(not that they were perfect just weren’t doing any genocides or full on waring with the alliance) goes and Varian just continuously attributes actions of outside factions to them based off of little to nothing.

Not a great argument. Especially when they went on to commit more war crimes than they have ever before.

given that Varian can’t see the future and they only outdo the old horde post Wrath that has no baring on Varian’s views or actions while thrall was in charge.

[OwenBurton]

And absolutely none of that was in response to Horde provocations, no sir. Nothing like oh say years of Horde routinely kidnapping, enslaving, and murdering Alliance civilians, experimenting on them, putting them in arenas. No indeed, that would take time away from their nature hikes, basket weaving, and flower arranging.

Genn is totally unreasonable. He should THANK the Lich Queen for blighting his land to a hellhole, murdering his people and son. Sylvie-sempai noticed him!


Seriously, Horde fans preening about knowing lore while frantically trying to ignore any of it that shows what the Horde really is...

Well, I think most people were upset at Genn because, well, they were literally in the middle of a massive world-ending invasion by a nearly infinite alien force. No one is saying that Genn has no right to hate or even oppose Sylvanas actively. But doing so while they were supposed to be cooperating against the broader threat seems foolhardy and mutually destructive.

If Genn successfully killed off Sylvanas and her best Forsaken...then that would be several powerhouses fewer to oppose the Legion invasion, would it not?

No Sylvanas = Leaderless and divided Horde (Thrall had lost his shaman powers and no Council was on the tables back then) = A much easier Legion victory against the fractured forces of Azeroth.

[Varodoc]

Well, I think most people were upset at Genn because, well, they were literally in the middle of a massive world-ending invasion by a nearly infinite alien force. No one is saying that Genn has no right to hate or even oppose Sylvanas actively. But doing so while they were supposed to be cooperating against the broader threat seems foolhardy and mutually destructive.

If Genn successfully killed off Sylvanas and her best Forsaken...then that would be several powerhouses fewer to oppose the Legion invasion, would it not?

No Sylvanas = Leaderless and divided Horde (Thrall had lost his shaman powers and no Council was on the tables back then) = A much easier Legion victory against the fractured forces of Azeroth.

The Horde literally did nothing in Legion though, so who cares (except antagonizing Odyn and his forces of course)?

Meanwhile the Alliance was instrumental because the NEUTRAL Order Halls used the Vindicaar, built by Alliance Draenei, to attack Argus.

So really, what's the problem if the Forsaken were exterminated in Legion? What's the problem if the Horde fell in Legion? They literally did nothing lmao. The Alliance and the neutral Armies of Legionfall saved Azeroth.

The funniest thing is how Baine at the victory dinner with all the Horde leaders says something like "we have vanquished the Legion!"... and I'm like "bitch what do you mean, you literally did nothing"

[Chromell]

If I interpreted the quest correctly, we are actually supporting Calia to fit in with the undead. Genn also mentions something in the lines of "keeping an eye in the Horde/Forsaken" now that Sylvanas is gone.

As a sidenote, I liked the dark ranger's comment by the end of the questline. It kinda makes sense for the factions to be more civilized with one another after taking care of threat that could wipe all of existence or something.

[cparle87]

This is such a weird take.

To begin with, the comparison to studying is stupid. Playing videogames for entertainment is not comparable to studying for a class. In fact, in classes the books are what the classes use primarily with videos being at best supplemental. You don't join a class to only watch videos. There is no class where watching videos is the goal. The goal is learning and books and videos are used to achieve that goal.

If the class was about cinema/writing for television series and used almost exclusively videos to educate, then maybe your comparison would come close to being reasonabl

And no, someone is not "narrow minded" for not reading books about a videogame. Nobody is only accepting the game as a medium by saying the books don't exist. But when the game is the primary driver of the lore and what most events take place in, then new characters and important motivation should be in the game. It is literally the most consumed World of Warcraft media, being miles ahead of the books. You're literally telling people to pay extra money and spend time studying to understand why something is happening in media they are already paying monthly for.

TL;DR: Really weak attempt to make non-book readers look stupid or ignorant. Big projection.

You pay to access the game as is. That is the beginning and ends of your rights. The hot take that paying your sub entitles you to anything beyond that is just laughter worthy. Pure entitlement.

Also, I'm not "literally" telling people to spend extra money. I have never bought any of the books. Yet, how do I know the lore? Hmm, what a conundrum. However could I have done it? Oh right. Wowpedia is a thing.

Also your whole classroom metaphor made no sense. "There is no class where watching videos is the goal. The goal is learning and books and videos are used to achieve that goal." This, my friend, is called distinction without a different. "No, I'm not here to watch education videos. I'm here to learn."

[Raisei]

Varian was inclined to believe it was the horde because he has a racist streak a mile wide

The next time a race of alien invaders destroys your home and some years later enslaves you and uses you in their gladitorial death games for their personal amusement, I am sure you will have nothing but good words for those aliens afterwards huh?

Come on. The Horde has brought all the hatred on itself and you know it. They are not innocent victims of a racist evil hooomann. Especially since Varian only declared war after he saw the Undercity and the various obscenities that had been happening there under Sylvanas' reign.

Something he puts on Thrall and the wider Horde because Thrall is Warchief and thus is responsible for these war crimes. Him not knowing of it is no excuse. It was his job to know and frankly, he was a fucking moron in any interaction with Sylvanas.

Even IF we believe that Putress tried to go against Sylvanas, that only absolves her of the Wrathgate, not of all the crimes that were commited in making the Blight.

I have no idea what is going on in the minds of Blizzards story writes, I really do not.
It was just one expansion ago that we fought to destroy UC, now we help the forsaken to restore Lordaeron despite nothing has changed in the meantime?

I will not even start with all the other problems the alliance story ONCE AGAIN has and that only seems to be getting worse every single patch, but the whole PREMISE of this questline is so dumb, I ONCE AGAIN can't believe somebody approved it to be released.

I completely agree. Blizzard is doing all in their power to make BFA never having existed FOR THE HORDE. They get their lost city back and NIGHTELVES are fuckin forced to help them with it. That is beyond tonedeaf. It is a literal slap in the face. I am not seeing Forsaken lining up to find a way to regrow a world tree, Blizzard... and we all know that we never will.
At this point you might as well remove the Alliance as a playable faction, so you can stop pretending that you ever gave a fuck about this side of the story.

And every Alliance player with a brain knows that all this will come back to bite us again. The Horde will turn on us again the first chance they get and when the Forsaken are happily blighting our people again we will only feel more like idiots for giving them the chance.

[RedBrood]

The Horde literally did nothing in Legion though, so who cares (except antagonizing Odyn and his forces of course)?

Meanwhile the Alliance was instrumental because the NEUTRAL Order Halls used the Vindicaar, built by Alliance Draenei, to attack Argus.

So really, what's the problem if the Forsaken were exterminated in Legion? What's the problem if the Horde fell in Legion? They literally did nothing lmao. The Alliance and the neutral Armies of Legionfall saved Azeroth.

The funniest thing is how Baine at the victory dinner with all the Horde leaders says something like "we have vanquished the Legion!"... and I'm like "bitch what do you mean, you literally did nothing"

Well. Yes, but no. Depends on your character's faction on that one.

The next time a race of alien invaders destroys your home and some years later enslaves you and uses you in their gladitorial death games for their personal amusement, I am sure you will have nothing but good words for those aliens afterwards huh?

Come on. The Horde has brought all the hatred on itself and you know it. They are not innocent victims of a racist evil hooomann. Especially since Varian only declared war after he saw the Undercity and the various obscenities that had been happening there under Sylvanas' reign.

Something he puts on Thrall and the wider Horde because Thrall is Warchief and thus is responsible for these war crimes. Him not knowing of it is no excuse. It was his job to know and frankly, he was a fucking moron in any interaction with Sylvanas.

Even IF we believe that Putress tried to go against Sylvanas, that only absolves her of the Wrathgate, not of all the crimes that were commited in making the Blight.



I completely agree. Blizzard is doing all in their power to make BFA never having existed FOR THE HORDE. They get their lost city back and NIGHTELVES are fuckin forced to help them with it. That is beyond tonedeaf. It is a literal slap in the face. I am not seeing Forsaken lining up to find a way to regrow a world tree, Blizzard... and we all know that we never will.
At this point you might as well remove the Alliance as a playable faction, so you can stop pretending that you ever gave a fuck about this side of the story.

And every Alliance player with a brain knows that all this will come back to bite us again. The Horde will turn on us again the first chance they get and when the Forsaken are happily blighting our people again we will only feel more like idiots for giving them the chance.

This is honestly why the War Arc should of never been done. Such a calamitous set of writing. I am a Horde player, always have been and will probably always be one. With that said and noted, I for the life of me can't understand why I am allowed to roam free. You'd think the alliance would want to at least de-fang the Horde, and as far as they know I'm the Horde's biggest hitter. Why am I not imprisoned, or kept under the watchful eye of some Alliance commander? From a story stand point it just doesn't make sense whatsoever.

Edit - Also did I not also do some War-Crimes as a player? ( I just don't remember as I have done my best to forget BFA's story telling during the War parts.)