RIP Personal Loot

[froschhure]

There should be just the option to set the rules for looting prior the runs and people could decide, whether they want to loot as group or personal

[Stickiler]

God I Hope the BluePost just doesnt make it Clear enough that the "Only Group Loot", is just for Testing right now. I most Certainly would like to remain with Personal Loot in my Group, and would welcome changes to Tradeability.

Personal Loot makes the Loot Distribution so much Easier, and you dont need the added Control of GroupLoot/MasterLoot for a Casual HC Raid. Eventually people will get the Loot.


Well, this is less a Problem with GDKP or the RaidLead, and more a Problem with Egoistic Raid Members.
If I had Members in my RaidGroup who let Upgrades go to Disenchant, because they want to get a Trinket/Weapon first, they would get the Boot, and nothing else.

Though, I dont like DKP either.

As my previous message, they clarified that it's Group Loot in the raid, across the board in Dragonflight https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-1/1352473/363

[Relapses]

I disagree. Should’ve made it group loot for guild runs and personal loot for everything else. Good luck getting loot in LFR where an idiot rogue will roll need on everything they can even if they can’t use it

If the system works the way that it's supposed to the idiot Rogue in this example wouldn't be able to roll Need on everything. Still shouldn't be used in LFR.

[LanToaster]

As my previous message, they clarified that it's Group Loot in the raid, across the board in Dragonflight https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-1/1352473/363

Thanks alot. I didnt see that Post yet.

Well, this will probably kill Pugging Raids for me, and give me a Higher threshold of Inviting random People to my Raid.

[Akka]

Personal Loot is a retarded concept that should never have existed to begin with.

[LanToaster]

If the system works the way that it's supposed to the idiot Rogue in this example wouldn't be able to roll Need on everything. Still shouldn't be used in LFR.

Problem is though, he can still roll on almost any Item that he could use.

For Pugs however this is a Nightmare. Imagine, joining a Semi Guild Group, you have basically no Chance to get any Item, as everyone who could wear an Item can Roll against you. And just trade it to whoever from their Group would want it.

Same goes the other way around, if you Join with a few people, like 5, you are 5 times more Likely to be able to funnel Loot to a single Person of your Group.

Edit:
I just dont get it why they just wont give the Options.
Give Players the Option to use MasterLooting if they want to.
Give Players the Option to use GroupLoot if they want to.
Give Players the Option to use PersonalLoot.
Hell, give them the Option again to us Free4All if they desire to.

Kill all the Problems, and disable the Ability to Change the Looting inside a Raid/Dungeon zone, and give a Popup about the Loot Rules when Entering a Dungeon.

[schwarzkopf]

Group Loot was shit because people kept needing things that they didn't,

Well, the current system has people keeping stuff they don't need ... even when they WANT to give it away.

So this new (aka old) system is - by definition - an improvement on that.

- - - Updated - - -

Give Players the Option to use MasterLooting if they want to.
Give Players the Option to use GroupLoot if they want to.
Give Players the Option to use PersonalLoot.
Hell, give them the Option again to us Free4All if they desire to.
Kill all the Problems, and disable

I assume by kill all the problems you mean make them powerful undead ?

Because your evil plan heads down two possible paths:

1. Individual choice - meaning the whole loot management in a raid has just become more complex than quantum mechanics.
2. Group leader choice - meaning now in addition to cross faction, item level and scores - we now have 4 NEW options determining who is getting into the raid.

So - you have managed to make the problem FAR FAR FAR FAR worse.

[Nymrohd]

This isn't old group loot. It's an entirely new system they are just calling group loot. It is far closer to a transparent version of personal loot than it is to the group loot that existed before.

[schwarzkopf]

Personal Loot is a retarded concept that should never have existed to begin with.

It was a good idea, poorly executed - so poorly executed that not only didn't it solve the intended problem - it added to it and complicated it.

Having to run an addon to get around the complexity it was a sure sign.

The revived system however - has all the advantages of personal loot + PLH automatically embedded into the system, a big step forward.

- - - Updated - - -

It is far closer to a transparent version of personal loot than it is to the group loot that existed before.

It is personal loot + PLH + automation. That's about the best possible system of all the bad options out there.

[Biomega]

Edit:
I just dont get it why they just wont give the Options.
Give Players the Option to use MasterLooting if they want to.
Give Players the Option to use GroupLoot if they want to.
Give Players the Option to use PersonalLoot.
Hell, give them the Option again to us Free4All if they desire to.

Because people are idiots, and the majority of WoW's player base would be confused by all the options, and about what things are currently set to, and when and how it could suddenly be changed, and so on. They want to streamline it to a fixed, singular option so that even Johnny Random from Simpleton Falls immediately knows what he's in for when he's doing a PUG.

Yes it makes things slightly worse for the top end of the curve compared to what it would be with a full array of options, but they'll take that any day to make sure the vast, vast majority in the middle isn't confused and complaining whenever a PUG leader decides to suddenly switch loot in the middle of the raid or whatever, or when they joined thinking it was GL and it turns out it's PL. And so on.

[Nymrohd]

It is personal loot + PLH + automation. That's about the best possible system of all the bad options out there.

Really the only issue I see is that as long as the system includes player agency, the community will transform the agency into drama.

[VinceVega]

Is it though? It is basically the same. You only roll manually instead of autmatically like it was with Personal Loot.

No one can force you to trade your item away. Same as with Personal Loot before.

Only difference is, that people who choose that they want to use the Masterloot or Lootcouncil route can do that now by just trading everything to the masterlooter after the fight and dispense the loot how they want.

You basically have both in one system and a need/greed system on top WITH second spec inclution.

Can it be more easily exploited? Maybe... i don't think anything will change for PuGs or LFR. It will just be as it has always been with PL.
For guilds you get the good and the ugly. But if you are in a guild who abuses the system? Leave. Have someone in your group that doesn't trade after. Kick him. SImple as that. If you loose one item for you raid doesn't matte because a better distribution system will cancele that out by a longshot

[schwarzkopf]

Really the only issue I see is that as long as the system includes player agency, the community will transform the agency into drama.

Well, given this new system gives the players that agency - and it is being turned into drama, I'd have to agree

[Soimu]

While I agree that personal loot has a place as a great system for pugs, I couldn't be happier to see Blizzard make the right decision to remove it entirely.

I've argued this for over 4 years with people here, feels great to be right.

It's a mistake. With all it's flaws personal loot was the best system for casuals which represents the majority of players and is what made me do raids again because i was tired of guild investments which meant i had to work first to gear up other players or pugs in which most of the raid leaders ninja the loot.

[schwarzkopf]

It's a mistake. With all it's flaws personal loot was the best system for casuals which represents the majority of players and is what made me do raids again because

Then you should be happy with the new system ... because casual players will end up getting more loot.

New system = Old system + PLH

Thus New System is better than old system.

[Nymrohd]

The one thing that will definitely be abused constantly is main spec switching. Losing low drop chance higher ilvl shield to a ret paladin who absolutely will switch to Holy or Prot for other fights (when they probably don't even have a UI for those specs, let alone plan to play them) because everyone switches main spec for bosses that drop some cool looking or higher ilvl loot will be awful.

[Biomega]

It's a mistake. With all it's flaws personal loot was the best system for casuals

Was it, though?

One might argue that new GL + full trade is more casual-friendly. In balanced groups it's basically a straight upgrade over PL since you tend to have a higher chance of actually getting loot.

The new roll restrictions go way beyond what PL did. You can't need on items you already have, for example. You can't win two of the same item if two dropped. You can't win offspec items over other people rolling for main spec. And so on. All that reduces the competition, whereas PL is effectively just everyone rolling Need every time, only with an invisible roll.

[LanToaster]

I assume by kill all the problems you mean make them powerful undead ?

Because your evil plan heads down two possible paths:

Oh yea, its Evil to have the Players actually give the Ability to play how they want. How dare I suggest something like that.

To be Fair: I´m perfectly Happy with Personal Loot, and as I 90% of the Time Raid in a Community Group, and we dont have Loot Whores, GroupLoot wont affect our Raid anyway.

1. Individual choice - meaning the whole loot management in a raid has just become more complex than quantum mechanics.

I dont know what you mean by that. What do you Imagine here? People Voting on a Loot System? This is Insane. Either way, even if you have a "Vote" for LootSystem, it wont be any more Complex than without: "Popup, RaidLead wishes to change the LootSystem to X, do you Agree?"

2. Group leader choice - meaning now in addition to cross faction, item level and scores - we now have 4 NEW options determining who is getting into the raid.

So - you have managed to make the problem FAR FAR FAR FAR worse.

So, you use this to hop on: "QQ I dont get Invited to Raids"?

The Desired LootSystem doesnt have any Impact on who to Invite to a Raid. In reality Group Loot is much worse in regards to "Whos getting into Raids".
You would compete with the RaidLead on a Weapon, you wont get into the Raid, period. Why should he Risk having to compete with you.

Well, the current system has people keeping stuff they don't need ... even when they WANT to give it away.
So this new (aka old) system is - by definition - an improvement on that.

This isn't old group loot. It's an entirely new system they are just calling group loot. It is far closer to a transparent version of personal loot than it is to the group loot that existed before.

No, its not.
Personal Loot is fairly Simple:
Boss dies, you roll if you receive an Item, then you roll which Item you Receive.
Group Loot:
Boss dies, you roll which Items drop, then you roll if you get an Item.

The Order is Importan, lets make it Simple a 10m raid: (Lets not Include Weapons/Trinkets in the Calculation, and have an Even LootPool, and assume 2 Items/10 Players)
PL: Boss dies, you have a 2/10 Chance to get an Item. This is One Roll.
GL: Boss dies, you have a 2/8 Chance to have it Drop an Armor Piece you can wear. Then, lets say you have at least 3 People with your ArmorClass in the Group. This are 4 Rolls.
Now, with PL you straight have basically a 20% chance of Loot. Fairly Straight forward.

Now with GroupLoot, you have 2 Rolls, to determine the Items.
Thats 2 Times 1/4 to determine if you are eligible to Receive an Item. This comes out to Roughly 31,5% of beeing able to Actually Roll against another Player. Now even if you only have ONE other Player to Roll against, you only have a Chance of 15% to win an Item, with 2 Others, it goes down to 10%, and with 3 others 7%.

Any RaidLead who intends to get Loot for himself/his raid, will as you are apparently be afraid of, will much more decide who to take. As I said: He probably wont invite someone who would Compete with the Loot he or his raid needs.

This doesnt even take into Account the previously Mentioned caveats of "Playing the System", where you get way more Loot for yourself if you play in a Group, the whole system will most likely screw Solo/Random players like yourself.

It was a good idea, poorly executed - so poorly executed that not only didn't it solve the intended problem - it added to it and complicated it.

Having to run an addon to get around the complexity it was a sure sign.

You dont need to have an Addon for Personal Loot. Here´s how we do it in our Raid:
People go in, loot the Boss, they receive an Item: "Yey, an Item" -> "Can I use it? Yes, -> Equip" "No?, Can I trade it? -> Yes, Post into Chat and have the Group Roll for it, Trade it to the Winner".

The revived system however - has all the advantages of personal loot + PLH automatically embedded into the system, a big step forward.

It is personal loot + PLH + automation. That's about the best possible system of all the bad options out there.

No, its not. Read above. This is exactly what the bluepost tries to sell. But it doesnt work like it.

Even worse, going from an earlier BluePost about the new Group Loot, there they said, with GroupLoot even stuff no one in the Raid can use will drop.
They could make a System that decides the Loot based group composition like PL is. But with how they go against Class Stacking, I doubt they will. And unless they reveal how the Loot is decided in Detail, I wont believe it either.

[schwarzkopf]

Oh yea, its Evil to have the Players actually give the Ability to play how they want. How dare I suggest something like that.

Your perceived freedoms don't give actual freedom.

The Desired LootSystem doesnt have any Impact on who to Invite to a Raid.

Of course it does... and at this point I'm abandoning the rest as it is too time consuming to post quote everything.

[Soimu]

Was it, though?

One might argue that new GL + full trade is more casual-friendly. In balanced groups it's basically a straight upgrade over PL since you tend to have a higher chance of actually getting loot.

The new roll restrictions go way beyond what PL did. You can't need on items you already have, for example. You can't win two of the same item if two dropped. You can't win offspec items over other people rolling for main spec. And so on. All that reduces the competition, whereas PL is effectively just everyone rolling Need every time, only with an invisible roll.

We shall see. I did not have any problems with personal loot and always got what i wanted from raids.