(SPOILERS) Jailer dialogue

[cparle87]

That's a fair point. Cho was pretty well versed, buuuut it would make sense that the Titans, who seem to have had at least a conscious intention of telling us WTF was going on before they "died," would have some kind of failsafe in their systems to let us know.

Yeah. Cho touches the Engine, says he "sees everything clearly now." Wrathion eats Lei Shen's heart, which had some of Aman'thul's residual power, he says something similar. The Pantheon were trying to possess the Keepers to survive, but weren't able to due to Sargeras' interference, so they just got a touch of emotion and memory. Titan technology, though, seems to want to teach those who operate it, well... how to operate it. Like a car that teaches you how to drive.

[huth]

It's semi-believable, but not in the way they phrased it as if he were an authority. "I've never seen any kind of Titan relic like this!" would be preferable from "This doesn't look Titan-made..."

I disagree. "This doesn't look Titan-made..." doesn't sound like there's much authority behind it, while your suggestion at least suggests that there is no known relic like it.

[Super Dickmann]

That made me think, I haven't seen Afrasiabi lately. He's usually talking at BlizzCon but he wasn't there at all. It seems like Danuser does all the story now? He's in an the interviews these days. We'll find out when they show the credits for Shadowlands.

He was a strong voice in BFA, especially the Saurfang story and I think he's still a lead there. He and Danuser are the main guys, with Golden, Gregory and others providing input on things like dialogue and quest zones. The main non-in game model cinematics IIRC are Golden. You can see her talking about Reckoning for example at Blizzcon.

Book writers, even incidental ones, have an enormous amount of freedom provided they hit the main points the general team want them to. The Illidan writer for instance mention that he had a very small list of things he had to include and the rest was up to him, Golden moved Calia to be in that role in place of a new character in BTS and in a recent interview Roux mentions the same.

[HitRefresh]

He was a strong voice in BFA, especially the Saurfang story and I think he's still a lead there. He and Danuser are the main guys, with Golden, Gregory and others providing input on things like dialogue and quest zones. The main non-in game model cinematics IIRC are Golden. You can see her talking about Reckoning for example at Blizzcon.

Book writers, even incidental ones, have an enormous amount of freedom provided they hit the main points the general team want them to. The Illidan writer for instance mention that he had a very small list of things he had to include and the rest was up to him, Golden moved Calia to be in that role in place of a new character in BTS and in a recent interview Roux mentions the same.

I really think he might have left, there's been no indication of him for well over a year which is unusual.

[Mace]

Shadowlands predates the Titans, so possibly older. Anduin comments in quest text that it doesn't appear Titan in origin to him. Albeit Anduin really shouldn't know that, but I get the sense that they're trying to convey it accurately to the player.

He says that everything is going to be consumed, including the World Soul, so sounds like good old fashioned nihilism and power trippin' to me.

Could it be that Elune is from or somehow connected to these "first ones" - perhaps their god or one of them?

[Houle]

Could it be that Elune is from or somehow connected to these "first ones" - perhaps their god or one of them?

if she has a connection with them, shell likely be one of them. it would be kinda strange to introduce ultra-powerful first beings weve never heard of before, and then an even greater being yet again, in the span of one addon. it would be too much

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Why arent old gods the big bads now again? These void lords are lame

[qwerty123456]

I'm guessing it's something like the first beings to die and enter the shadowlands or the first species that was born in the shadowlands.

[Unholyground]

It seems to me like the Titans themselves are indeed constructs of some kind too which were seeded in each planet they were birthed from by something much greater. I also have a feeling they know who created them.

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if she has a connection with them, shell likely be one of them. it would be kinda strange to introduce ultra-powerful first beings weve never heard of before, and then an even greater being yet again, in the span of one addon. it would be too much

Well it is the same in IRL, if you believe in a God it means you have to believe that God was created by another even greater being which means one of 2 things, creation is an infinite chain or everything is random.

[Super Dickmann]

Could it be that Elune is from or somehow connected to these "first ones" - perhaps their god or one of them?

Not unlikely, but I'd be skeptical of it.

Speaking of, legit curious what your thoughts are on whether Elune should be explained or not.

[Feanoro]

Not unlikely, but I'd be skeptical of it.

Speaking of, legit curious what your thoughts are on whether Elune should be explained or not.

Only if we want her ruined.

[Beet]

Much like the rest of the fanfiction tier writing, such as how Covenants are ripoffs of existing lore (Danuser: "our Maladraxxus forces are even Scourgier!"), I expect we'll find out the first ones are Titans but better.

This is what bothers me about shadowlands. They’re just taking the old lore and now shitting on it by making “better” versions of it. Like I enjoyed the old lore. It was classic. I liked how the Dreadlords made Frostmourne. It gave them mystique and they weren’t just weird vampiric guys. But now we see nah they didn’t actually make it.

I loved the Scourge. I loved their architecture and how it was supposedly taken from the nerubians. But now we see nah it was actually stolen from Maldraxxus.

Now we may get to see there’s a super duper cooler older race than the Titans who my guess will be just cooler Titans and we will learn the Titans copied from them lmao.

And I can already see this thread has some people arguing that there aren’t retcons which is hilarious. Shadowlands retcons some rather big deals. In the end I’ll still play Shadowlands, but for the first time I won’t be into the story or lore whatsoever.

[Monster Hunter]

Eh, I can buy Anduin knowing, he spent a lot of time around dwarves in earlier books

Especially after Magni turned to stone

Blizz also keep saying the titans were "inspired" by the Kyrians, tat tens to tell me the kryrians were around and established at least when the titans were active and remaking worlds.

Also the titans are old, but there not actually all that old compared to other entities of cosmic forces. The void lords definatly predate the titans

[Mace]

Not unlikely, but I'd be skeptical of it.

Speaking of, legit curious what your thoughts are on whether Elune should be explained or not.

Currently, I say no. Leave it Goddess, that's mysterious enough.. you might wanna articulate a bit better what that means. However I would like to know what her connection to the night elves, Well of Eternity and arcane if any - seeing how integrated that was ain the night elves' origin and development over their history. I think they can do that without de-mystifying her especially if they go via fleshing out the Order of Elune - whose core priestess portion is still pretty mysterious - considering how familiar we are with its sentinels and watchers - they are even more mysterious and less known than even the demon hunters were before Legion.

[Super Dickmann]

@Feanoro @Mace

Yeah, that about summarizes my thought process as well. After more than a decade and a half, any explanation would be poor. Being the only real deity is key.

Was gonna add that that kind of info would also be too much in my eyes, but @Aucald ended up doing so mid-edit, so nevermind.

[Aucald]

Currently, I say no. Leave it Goddess, that's mysterious enough.. you might wanna articulate a bit better what that means. However I would like to know what her connection to the night elves, Well of Eternity and arcane if any - seeing how integrated that was ain the night elves' origin and development over their history. I think they can do that without de-mystifying her especially if they go via fleshing out the Order of Elune - whose core priestess portion is still pretty mysterious - considering how familiar we are with its sentinels and watchers - they are even more mysterious and less known than even the demon hunters were before Legion.

I think knowing that kind of information would actually go far toward demystifying her, myself. The Priestesses of Elune are pretty manifestly defined in the lore - they're the clerics of Elune, serving what they believe are her commandments and channeling her power accordingly. We also know that Elune was once a part of a pantheon of Kaldorei deities the ancient Night Elves worshiped (including what were presumably the Loa of the Dark Trolls they once were) who rose to prominence as the Night Elves evolved into what they would become, with the original other deity-like beings within the pantheon falling by the wayside (though likely continuing to be revered by the Druids as the Ancients).

[Wilfire]

The First Ones were renegade Light and Void Lords that created the physical universe, the Twisting Nether and the Shadowlands to seek refuge from the eternal conflict. The Shadowlands and the Titans are probably some sort of a very convoluted failsafe that protects the First Ones' creations from gravitating back to the Light / Void and also prevents the Light and the Void from invading.

Elune is some kind of a bastard child of a Light Lord and a Void Lord.

Sargeras went insane because he learned the truth that he's the product of an experimental WMD program by the First Ones to end the eternal conflict for good (he's a failed Azeroth basically) and decided to fight the Light, the Void and the First Ones on his own terms.

[Mace]

I think knowing that kind of information would actually go far toward demystifying her, myself. The Priestesses of Elune are pretty manifestly defined in the lore - they're the clerics of Elune, serving what they believe are her commandments and channeling her power accordingly. We also know that Elune was once a part of a pantheon of Kaldorei deities the ancient Night Elves worshiped (including what were presumably the Loa of the Dark Trolls they once were) who rose to prominence as the Night Elves evolved into what they would become, with the original other deity-like beings within the pantheon falling by the wayside (though likely continuing to be revered by the Druids as the Ancients).

You may be right, afterall those are one of the things we are curious about. Do I really need to have it confirmed that Elune is who fashioned those Dark trolls into dark elves? or is knowing that the night elves really believe that and that Elune is real and speaks to them enough?

Do I take Tyrande's words, scoffing that Elune is a greater Naaru at Velen's suggestion to be proof Elune isn't a Naaru at all, but something more, even though I don't know what Tyrande's knowledge of Naaru was at the time Velen made that statement, which was years after we first met Naaru.

As a person who's deep delved into the kaldorei, I've had to piece together my understanding of the arcane in the race based on source info, but my findings haven't been explicitly stated, more like educated conclusions. Such as.

1. Elune is connected to the Well of Eternity somehow:
a) Night elves are made from it, and they say she made them +
b) She was discovered by them from studying the well of eternity - how isn't quite clear, was it super intelligence from arcane amplification or they heard her voice (which we know they can)
c) She is believed to dwell in the centre of the well, but her symbol is the moon above - while this is likely a metaphor how does this connect? Knowing what the well is, is Elune connected to Azeroth, and in what way? She could be Azeroth somehow or an a goddess helping Azeroth, or Azeroth could be a titan avatar of Elune.
d) We know the order holds the waters of the Well of eternity, both original and 2nd well, and the Moonwells as SACRED. Regardless of the arcane practice phobia during the Long Vigil (that's now over) and annoyance Illidan recreated the well of eternity, this fact remains.

= she is linked to the arcane itself. But she is a goddess, and we equate such things usually with the Light.

So should we expand our regard of her and true deities to beyond the light?
Are we only confused simply because priest class mechanics use the light and shadow (rather than arcane) in game, therefore we find it difficult to accept what they've shown us regarding her and seek some extra reveal that isn't necessary.
Shouldn't a true deity afterall span the full spectrum of magic not just light or void?

Then as such, the night elven priesthood arcanisation is because it is through the arcane and their ability to wield it, and thus their discovery of her through it is why there is a link to the arcane, but she covers all magical fields. [Shadowlands shows death for sure, Cenarius is proof of nature]

Night elf priests are mentioned to discover Elune before they master the arcane sufficiently to advance the way they did. This implies:

1. The priesthood is what lead to the mage class. And both use the arcane but in different ways. Though not stated outright, we can assume a clerical organisation would look into the philosophical and spiritual meaning of things as pertaining to life and origin, and this is how they view the arcane.
a) The mage class would develop from those who took the
b)The priesthood would have the oldest knowledge of the arcane; implying their use of it extends beyond use of the well, maybe this is why all night elves can cast arcane spells that don't light up Azeroth, if they've learnt to call down the stars/moon. It would explain why we see this in priests, druids and only night elven based mages (like Moonguard and Nightborne) but not in other mages, and
c) if what the night elves regard as magecraft is actual mage abilities from using the Well of Eternity directly to cast, it explains why when this is band, all mage related operations cease in the Long Vigil group, but star/moon spells would continue - afterall, it's not like you can ban a lizard or moonkin using an moonfire or moonbolt spell they do as a natural thing

2. Magecraft develops from using the priestly knowledge of the arcane for practical purposes. While the priest focuses on the spiritual and philosophical meaning, healing hearts, body and minds, it doesn't take 2 and 2 to start realising a host of applications for this power can be utilised. From pure offensive combat, to creating things, shaping things, building things, making life easier, understanding reality better from a physical point of view - which doesn't look at meaning, and from understanding reality, the building blocks of matter, something the elves would have been very curious about, this field would greatly expand into practical things for life, making building easier, and doing things never done before.

Before long a very distinct discipline all it's own, using the same source but not requiring spiritual understanding or philosophy to use would develop, and this it would make sense is how the mage class starts. From the priesthood.

2. The priesthood wields the arcane offensively. The evidence is clear, in both pre-sundering times (WotA trilogy) and Wc3 onwards where the priesthood uses arcane spells like Starfall, Starshards and others.
a) The priesthood has a marshal side, so they are a priesthood that also fights, it stands to reason they wield the arcane offensively hence those spells.
b) They are quite old, by the time of the sundering era, they are 5k years old, and with major conflicts like the conquest of Kalimdor, they would have had their equivalent of paladin long before humans existed - which is why holy light based paladins for night elves feels like a scoff on Nelf lore, especially with
c) the Night warrior - avatar of Elune a fighter/caster of the religious kind, only his offensive is arcane based - like it was for most night elves - but is this because the arcane is the principle magic for the night elves, whereas it's the light for humans based on religion? so


3. What the arcane is to night elf priests is what the light is to human priests. The previous points above is what leads to this question. THeir priesthood is caught using the arcane far more than the light. Which leads to:

4. The night elf priesthood using the arcane to heal or aid in healing - in some combination with the light. We know spells like Moonfall actually heal, we know the arcane properties enhance natural life, making it go on for longer (even indefinitely if you know how on an elf), making it grow bigger, stronger, also making it smarter. This is what it did tot he night elves in addition to forging them, it did this to surrounding animals, and in the long vigil they used this property and found ways to maximise it combining said arcane waters with druidic nature spells and priestly light/arcane infusion.

Arcane we know can conjure food and drink and the Moonwells were used for both food and healing properties (see WC3) - so an arcane centric priesthood likely can utilise the arcane in ways for healing that are just not expressed in game mechanics in the priest class, because the playable priest class is based on the Light religion not on Elunism or the Loa religion or titan ones. And blizzard didn't vary the class, what they did was initially give each race a spell related to their faith, but that was it.




Arcane is sacred:
Explains also why they still hate magical abuse so much, It's one thing when the magic is used extremely well and to the benefit of all, doing great things, like they did for the most part in the Night elven empire and likely now do again amongst the Highborne, it's another thing when they get all reckless and abusive lose the sacred reverential fear, that keeps you humble and disciplined - which we know Azshara and most highborne close to her lost.

I've always maintained the race's biggest problem with the pre-sundering era end period was not the civilization and the wonders wrought, but the callousness, arrogance and reckless use of magic and addiction - abuse of something sacred and development of the nasty attitudes which are fundamentally not kaldorei in nature.
[Kaldorei are described as benevolent, gracious and highly intelligent fundamentally - see Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider for my deep dive, section on character, attributes and tenets of the Kaldorei. ]


Now we are shown a lot of this, but little explanation is given. Since Elune is the major focus of the Order of Elune, it stands to reason there is some serious connection, we just don't know what. I'd like to find out a little bit more.

Maybe it has to do with how it is used, maybe mage class wise you are actually using the power whether in the well of eternity or sunwell or the atmosphere or inside (we know night elves have internal arcane power based on their creationfrom the well and connection to it - this is why the eyes glow). Tapping from a Well or atmosphere lights Azeroth up, especially a Well because it's connected tot he planet in focused way, and reveals the high intensity magic concentration, while atmosphere is a bit more spread out. (I'm guessing here) - but that is not the only means:

You can draw from the stars itself and moon, if you know how, perhaps celestial divine entities (agustine celestial type wild gods/constellas) show the night elves words of power they can call down from the stars, or they learn this from the titan discvoeries they make or Elune teaches them directly - but these are used independent of utilising the Well's power and thus never fell under magecraft and thus was never a danger or threat - or it could be was too low key to cause problems and the danger is really using the Well as the source especially for big projects.

Very little is clarified when trying to understand how all of this works and how it relates to Elune. I'd love some more clarity.

Culture:
Ravenmoon did a good piece on that in another topic I'll link here, on this influence, and how Elune is integrated throughout NElf culture, the point here is a little revealing might be good and still retain a lot of mystery over her.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52391800

Also some reveals can lead to even more questions, so who knows. Do we not touch her at all, or touch her in certain areas.?
@Super Dickmann you may also find the above speculation interesting.