Winter Queen's Sister Reveal (Spoilers)

[Good ol Stroggylos]

So when elune mated with the deer a cenarius came out. Wonder how the vorkai came to being. Am sure these sisters share some special taste. Maybe there was a triangle that estranged them in the past?

[mingarrubia]

As far as we know, at some point Elune fell in love with Malorne and had a son with him. Malorne was then slain by Archimonde. Maybe her "tears", her "wrath" and her "sorrowful voice" are all linked to Malorne's death.

According to wowwiki:

"Malorne was the lover of Elune, the mother of their son Cenarius. He subsequently became partner to the Dragon Aspect Ysera, who adopted Cenarius as her own due to her compassion, motherly nature, and because Elune had blessed Ysera (along with Malorne, of course) with the rearing of her son, as Elune surely saw all the good that is in and is Ysera, and Elune couldn't raise him herself due to her responsibilities of being the only tender of the Moon (without Elune, no Moon; in a sense, Elune is the Moon). This has led to speculation that Ysera and Elune were one and the same, but this theory has been officially denied".

I wasn't aware of this bit of lore, but it would explain why the Winter Queen speaks of Ysera as her sister's "pet".

[ravenmoon]

As far as we know, at some point Elune fell in love with Malorne and had a son with him. Malorne was then slain by Archimonde. Maybe her "tears", her "wrath" and her "sorrowful voice" are all linked to Malorne's death.

According to wowwiki:

"Malorne was the lover of Elune, the mother of their son Cenarius. He subsequently became partner to the Dragon Aspect Ysera, who adopted Cenarius as her own due to her compassion, motherly nature, and because Elune had blessed Ysera (along with Malorne, of course) with the rearing of her son, as Elune surely saw all the good that is in and is Ysera, and Elune couldn't raise him herself due to her responsibilities of being the only tender of the Moon (without Elune, no Moon; in a sense, Elune is the Moon). This has led to speculation that Ysera and Elune were one and the same, but this theory has been officially denied".

I wasn't aware of this bit of lore, but it would explain why the Winter Queen speaks of Ysera as her sister's "pet".

So if Ysera is a pet, what does that make people?

sTill ot of msytery though.

Did Elune create the night elves via the Well of Eternity
Why are all her powers channeleld by them arcane moon and star spells?
What's her connection to order adn the arcane as this seems a very large part of ALL elven people - with night elves eschewing hte balnace between nature and arcane
THey said or claimed they discovered Elune through the well of Eternity, for a while beliving she dwelt inside it.
We are told they are made from the arcane power of the well and have an arcane essence with a great love for nature
Cenarius as Eluen's son has a great love for life from her, and magical connection tot heemerald dream/nature form his father

Why then are the night elves the only followers of ELune on AZeroth? why don't we see some of hte high elves , blood leve,s worgen andother races adhere.


The lore says the high elves were angry with her because of how they were treated by the night elves and getting exiled, so dropped their faith in her, going full on light, not stars and night also,..



IF Elune is an eternal one, why does she seem to have much broader scope than her? Is the jailer trying to replace her? did she achieve what he could not? Elune seems to be very strong in the arcane, light and void - and obviously seems to be quite connected to the darker side too, including death and chaos. We see some nature links via the druids, but not much, instead we could say their arcane connection comes from her.. so what does this mean?

Well we know Elune treasures life greatly, and yet sits as an arbiter of death - are blizzard trying to form their oown theory connecting life and death , linked to the Eternal ones and the first ones.


i'm sorry but the eternal ones just sounds a very silly name... it loses all meaning when

1. The titans are also eternal
2. it would appear most demons are
3. the night elves too were eternal until they well imploded.

Lots of immortal /eternal entities around, and the goal posts keep changing all hte time.. but then they never really fleshed out the cosmos lore in Chronicles.


Warcraft lore isn't very good, I must say. But tha'ts prob cos it keeps changing and re ordering what it does

[Le Conceptuel]

How do you define what a "god" is? Clearly, none of these beings are omnipotent or omniscient. But so what? That's not what a "god" is to many cultures and religions that have existed in earth's history (even to the authors of the Bible, there were many *real* "gods" but only one omnipotent, omniscient one).

I don't see how the Titans, Elune, or even the Ancients wouldn't qualify as "gods" by the standards of say, the ancient Greeks.

That's not entirely fair to the matter, though. There is still a certain power rift and degree of higher order which Elune previously demonstrated. Going back to Classic lore, the Titans were shown to be extraordinarily advanced aliens quite obviously, using advanced technology as their primary means of seeding life and having no confirmable godlike traits. Meanwhile, Elune was always unclear in what she exactly was, but had powers which could be accessed only through religious means and was quite active everywhere, indicating that she had no limits to her reach or possibly that she was even omnipresent.

Nowadays, the Titans are considerably closer to Gods, but they still are creatures that could still view Elune, if she truly were an omnipresent entity, as a God. Now, if it is true that Elune is an Eternal One or something relating to them, that would put her below the Titans (as the Eternal Ones are quite visibly only Titan Keeper-level), but if she were somehow still on the same level as she was implied to be in Classic, that would not at all prevent the Titans from being in a position where they could worship her.

Also, this is an aside, but your theology is a little dubious. There were no "real" other gods in any biblical context aside from very early texts by the tribes of Canaan, which would require you to go a ways back. Aside from in metaphorical stories (i.e. Leviathan) or other such things derivative more of Canaanite myth than the later Jewish religious texts, there are no other gods.

[Hellspawn]

So if Ysera is a pet, what does that make people?

sTill ot of msytery though.

Did Elune create the night elves via the Well of Eternity
Why are all her powers channeleld by them arcane moon and star spells?
What's her connection to order adn the arcane as this seems a very large part of ALL elven people - with night elves eschewing hte balnace between nature and arcane
THey said or claimed they discovered Elune through the well of Eternity, for a while beliving she dwelt inside it.
We are told they are made from the arcane power of the well and have an arcane essence with a great love for nature
Cenarius as Eluen's son has a great love for life from her, and magical connection tot heemerald dream/nature form his father

Why then are the night elves the only followers of ELune on AZeroth? why don't we see some of hte high elves , blood leve,s worgen andother races adhere.


The lore says the high elves were angry with her because of how they were treated by the night elves and getting exiled, so dropped their faith in her, going full on light, not stars and night also,..



IF Elune is an eternal one, why does she seem to have much broader scope than her? Is the jailer trying to replace her? did she achieve what he could not? Elune seems to be very strong in the arcane, light and void - and obviously seems to be quite connected to the darker side too, including death and chaos. We see some nature links via the druids, but not much, instead we could say their arcane connection comes from her.. so what does this mean?

Well we know Elune treasures life greatly, and yet sits as an arbiter of death - are blizzard trying to form their oown theory connecting life and death , linked to the Eternal ones and the first ones.


i'm sorry but the eternal ones just sounds a very silly name... it loses all meaning when

1. The titans are also eternal
2. it would appear most demons are
3. the night elves too were eternal until they well imploded.

Lots of immortal /eternal entities around, and the goal posts keep changing all hte time.. but then they never really fleshed out the cosmos lore in Chronicles.


Warcraft lore isn't very good, I must say. But tha'ts prob cos it keeps changing and re ordering what it does

Eternals are not the same thing as being eternal.
Titans just seem to be Eternals that is somewhat confirmed (but I guess not 100% confirmed)
Also, Night Elfs were only immortal after the sundering with the help of Nordrassil and the Aspects blessings. Before that, they just had a really long life span.
Elune probably learned more about other powers after she left her position in the life lands, so she is probably not just an eternal anymore but much more... she is a (upstart) goddess whith a wide variety of powers and influence in the whole cosmos.

I would be surprised if Elune did not have a hand in transforming the dark trolls into the night elfs.

[ravenmoon]

Eternals are not the same thing as being eternal.
Titans just seem to be Eternals that is somewhat confirmed (but I guess not 100% confirmed)
Also, Night Elfs were only immortal after the sundering with the help of Nordrassil and the Aspects blessings. Before that, they just had a really long life span.
Elune probably learned more about other powers after she left her position in the life lands, so she is probably not just an eternal anymore but much more... she is a (upstart) goddess whith a wide variety of powers and influence in the whole cosmos.

I would be surprised if Elune did not have a hand in transforming the dark trolls into the night elfs.

Couldn't they choose another name then? I guess it's a pointless grief.

Night elves were immortal before the sundering, that was the thing they were most proud off.. after the sundering, the Tree restored their immortality so they won't have to use the arcane well to regain it.. it certainly removed a greater temptation to fall back on the arcane..

Remember the arcane does enhance life while using it.. ofc abusing it or overusing it warps you and isn't good (like anything), but post sundering many benefits previously enjoyed by using the well are enabled by the blessings on Nordrassil they are linked too via the well. (just read the descriptions of the pre-sundering night elves during the WotA and manual material)

Until recently, the night elves have only known immortality (brief few days/weeks between the implosion of the well and the linking to Nordrassil over the reformed well)

But whether you ignore what I'm saying or not, they, the dragon aspects, wild gods, titans etc, keepers, demons, all have immortality, Naaru, void lords, old gods, the list goes on, it's just nothing that remarkable for the sort of super beings these new @Eternals@ are supposed to be viewed as. Immortality is remarkable to a mortal or mortal races, but it isn't to immortal beings. These eternals are supposed to be either next to the first ones or some earlier or restricted version of the First ones.. whatever they decide to run with. I guess Eternals is as good a name giving the circumstances, but.. still it's not really that eye catching.


But you could say eternal is different from immortal. Right now, they haven't made any distinction, and until they do, it's not that special a designation.

[Molvonos]

I gotta wonder.

Since the Light and Void are inexorably linked, did the attack on Bastion, by the void, happen at the same time as the Lights attack on Ravendreth?

Was it mirrored or did the Void simply use the attack as an opportunity to 'slip in'?

[iosdeveloper]

Guys, the best move is to completely ignore the lore. The lore is utterly destroyed. Its a joke. Just pretend it doesn't exist.

this
just play the game, when you have the itch
stop obsessing over it, it's not worth wasting your life over anymore (it never was actually, but we all got caught)

Infracted.

[Edlarel]

Except Aluneth is an entity, you can't have more than one. Tears of Elune is an artifact but we don't know what's made out of or how it's made. Nothing states there can't be more than one.

I, um, well this is awkward. Have you never met two people with the same name? Assuming no, given your reply here, you have so much to look forward too once they let you out of whatever empty space you're in now.

On topic, I love that we're getting new lore RE: Elune, and of course they're not going to just give us 100% new, in no way connected lore. Then nobody would be invested in it. Despite the arguments here, THAT would be bad writing in a progressive story. And regardless of them being sisters, it does not mean that one can't be more powerful. They're cosmic beings. Sister could be a courtesy because they're close, not necessarily born of the same stock. But, even if Elune is an Eternal and not a "first one" that doesn't make her importance to us any less. Such beings are already so far removed from the average mortal that their own system of order doesn't matter from any perspective other than for storytelling. In world, either one could squash a single person.

And Sire didn't die. We wore him down because of his arrogance (same as 90% of the bosses we fight because this is still a game and we should be able to get some victory to progress), then Renethal and the Venthyr captured him with an incantation in his sword. Honestly, sometimes it's like people argue things without even attempting to understand them first.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I, um, well this is awkward. Have you never met two people with the same name? Assuming no, given your reply here, you have so much to look forward too once they let you out of whatever empty space you're in now.

Not sure what your condescending comment is suppose to provide here exception your own ignorance of my point.

[mingarrubia]

Elune probably learned more about other powers after she left her position in the life lands, so she is probably not just an eternal anymore but much more... she is a (upstart) goddess whith a wide variety of powers and influence in the whole cosmos.

Could be. I always thought that Elune was all about balance between different cosmic powers (arcane and life magic, at the very least).

[huth]

I, um, well this is awkward. Have you never met two people with the same name? Assuming no, given your reply here, you have so much to look forward too once they let you out of whatever empty space you're in now.

Not the same thing. A single conciousness with multiple bodies would work, maybe, but two people with the same name aren't even close. On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason there can't be more than one of an artifact (which literally refers to the fact that it was manufactured and isn't a natural occurence).

[ravenmoon]

Could be. I always thought that Elune was all about balance between different cosmic powers (arcane and life magic, at the very least).

ME too.

Although later they did emphasize the light and void

so she was like a balance is the stable state of the cosmos... night elves signify balance between arcane and nature - which is a central theme in their lore.. the druids balance the Highborne and vice versa, .. which is is why arcane addiction is cured by an arcane/nature tree in the Nightborne story, (who are "the new Highborne" or horde highborne if you look at it that way)

the high elves show a void and light dichotomy - is what they seem to be building up to.. these all seem part of Elune.


Her role in the shadow lands seems ot allude a life/death balance - the mechanic of the world works on that. But now I'm not so sure anymore

[EntertainmentNihilist]

That's not entirely fair to the matter, though. There is still a certain power rift and degree of higher order which Elune previously demonstrated. Going back to Classic lore, the Titans were shown to be extraordinarily advanced aliens quite obviously, using advanced technology as their primary means of seeding life and having no confirmable godlike traits. Meanwhile, Elune was always unclear in what she exactly was, but had powers which could be accessed only through religious means and was quite active everywhere, indicating that she had no limits to her reach or possibly that she was even omnipresent.

Nowadays, the Titans are considerably closer to Gods, but they still are creatures that could still view Elune, if she truly were an omnipresent entity, as a God. Now, if it is true that Elune is an Eternal One or something relating to them, that would put her below the Titans (as the Eternal Ones are quite visibly only Titan Keeper-level), but if she were somehow still on the same level as she was implied to be in Classic, that would not at all prevent the Titans from being in a position where they could worship her.

You still are not defining what a "god" is in any meaningful way. What is a "godlike" trait? The Titans, Elune, the Eternal Ones, the Old Gods, etc. are all:

-Immortal
-Powerful far beyond what any "mortal" / humanoid race is capable of
-Far more knowledgeable than the "mortal" races.
-Have a home realm that is *not* that of the mortals.
-Capable of creating/making various forms of life.

So why shouldn't they be considered gods? What "godlike trait" do they lack?

The only thing you listed is omnipresence, but many "gods" in certain religions weren't omnipresent. Some were believed to have physical bodies or inhabit physical objects.

Also, this is an aside, but your theology is a little dubious. There were no "real" other gods in any biblical context aside from very early texts by the tribes of Canaan, which would require you to go a ways back. Aside from in metaphorical stories (i.e. Leviathan) or other such things derivative more of Canaanite myth than the later Jewish religious texts, there are no other gods.

The other "gods" weren't considered fake / fictional. That is a weird, relatively modern idea. They were real entities that were just infinitely inferior to YHWH.

The concept of any text referencing other gods as real entities must be "metaphor" or derived from earlier, more "primitive" mythology is just a weak way to prop up the weird modern idea that "all the gods but one are fictional". It's not something just about anyone ancient would have believed.

But I don't think this particular discussion is suited for MMO-Champion, so we should probably leave it here.

[Le Conceptuel]

You still are not defining what a "god" is in any meaningful way. What is a "godlike" trait? The Titans, Elune, the Eternal Ones, the Old Gods, etc. are all:

-Immortal
-Powerful far beyond what any "mortal" / humanoid race is capable of
-Far more knowledgeable than the "mortal" races.
-Have a home realm that is *not* that of the mortals.
-Capable of creating/making various forms of life.

So why shouldn't they be considered gods? What "godlike trait" do they lack?

The only thing you listed is omnipresence, but many "gods" in certain religions weren't omnipresent. Some were believed to have physical bodies or inhabit physical objects.



The other "gods" weren't considered fake / fictional. That is a weird, relatively modern idea. They were real entities that were just infinitely inferior to YHWH.

The concept of any text referencing other gods as real entities must be "metaphor" or derived from earlier, more "primitive" mythology is just a weak way to prop up the weird modern idea that "all the gods but one are fictional". It's not something just about anyone ancient would have believed.

But I don't think this particular discussion is suited for MMO-Champion, so we should probably leave it here.

I'll admit that I cannot name any particular rift between these entities and a "god" in the traditional fantasy setting save for having, perhaps, a particular sphere of influence which is utterly attached to them rather than simply adapted, or a more fundamental position in the universe. I suppose that I'll take the psuedo-Socratic way of going about it, which is to ask - in this particular instance - what would then separate an advanced alien AI from a "god" in this setting? We can assume that an advanced alien AI is similarly immortal, has access to advanced technologies which take it beyond the scope of anything mortals have access to, originates from another "realm", and is surely capable of using its technologies to create new forms of life. Once again, it calls to mind the old problem of how a Sufficiently-Advanced Alien is distinct from a small-g, polytheistic kind of god.

As for the other situation, I'm not particularly sure if this is more of an actual point of potential religious debate since most of the Canaanite myths have been wholly eradicated. Indeed, that's actually Canaanite myth that was folded into the Jewish mythology over time. The belief of modern Abrahamic religions is that there is only one deity of any kind. The Jewish people mostly lifted elements from other Canaanite religions (I.E. portraying a snake as a trickster figure) as a means of insulting or discrediting them, but they never actually believed in those.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

I'll admit that I cannot name any particular rift between these entities and a "god" in the traditional fantasy setting save for having, perhaps, a particular sphere of influence which is utterly attached to them rather than simply adapted, or a more fundamental position in the universe. I suppose that I'll take the psuedo-Socratic way of going about it, which is to ask - in this particular instance - what would then separate an advanced alien AI from a "god" in this setting? We can assume that an advanced alien AI is similarly immortal, has access to advanced technologies which take it beyond the scope of anything mortals have access to, originates from another "realm", and is surely capable of using its technologies to create new forms of life. Once again, it calls to mind the old problem of how a Sufficiently-Advanced Alien is distinct from a small-g, polytheistic kind of god.

IMO, you can't. Because the term "god" is simply too vague. In short, if somebody calls something a "god", we don't really have any grounds to disagree with them. Statements like "that's not *really* a god" are pointless.

If it's (in some sense) a higher being, and is worshiped, it's fair to call it a "god".

As for the other situation, I'm not particularly sure if this is more of an actual point of potential religious debate since most of the Canaanite myths have been wholly eradicated. Indeed, that's actually Canaanite myth that was folded into the Jewish mythology over time. The belief of modern Abrahamic religions is that there is only one deity of any kind. The Jewish people mostly lifted elements from other Canaanite religions (I.E. portraying a snake as a trickster figure) as a means of insulting or discrediting them, but they never actually believed in those.

Your "belief of modern Abrahamic traditions" statement is true, but really only after a few centuries AD. The belief of Ancient Jews and early Christians was not that the "gods" of other religions were "made-up" or "fake". Only that they were inferior (often malicious) entities that were created by the true God. Hints why they never respond to other religions with "your god doesn't exist / is fiction but ours is real" but with "our god is better than yours" or "your god is evil and ours isn't".

As I said the idea of "all the gods are imaginary but one" is a "modern" idea that came about only in the last ~1800 years or so.

A "god" ("elohim" in hebrew, "theos" in greek) was a very broad term that could refer to any spirit-being that is worshiped. As such, it was often interchanged with "demon", "angel", or "spirit".

[craigw]

no one can stop me. my powers transcend all realms and realities.

[Le Conceptuel]

IMO, you can't. Because the term "god" is simply too vague. In short, if somebody calls something a "god", we don't really have any grounds to disagree with them. Statements like "that's not *really* a god" are pointless.

If it's (in some sense) a higher being, and is worshiped, it's fair to call it a "god".

In that regard, returning to the original comment to which you were responding, if just about anything can be a small-g god if sufficiently-advanced and powerful, doesn't that mean there could surely be things among those which find other, more powerful entities worthy of worship, thus permitting Eonar to potentially worship Elune?

[EntertainmentNihilist]

In that regard, returning to the original comment to which you were responding, if just about anything can be a small-g god if sufficiently-advanced and powerful, doesn't that mean there could surely be things among those which find other, more powerful entities worthy of worship, thus permitting Eonar to potentially worship Elune?

I don't see why not. If it's true that the "First Ones" transcend the six forces, they could be gods to the gods of the six forces. We might have a Greek Mythology -type scenario with multiple eras of different gods.

[Le Conceptuel]

I don't see why not. If it's true that the "First Ones" transcend the six forces, they could be gods to the gods of the six forces. We might have a Greek Mythology -type scenario with multiple eras of different gods.

Quite possibly. Of course, Blizzard has somewhat overdone it a bit. I'd say it was somewhat of a mistake to make the First Ones as they are, even if they may actually work as an interesting concept if they weren't Titans But Better.