MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. Cirque's Avatar
    People did more 25s in ICC times because there was no other option. Even supercasual guilds felt nudged in the 25 direction - the fact of the matter is that 10man today is more popular. Period. I get it, I loved 25, it was awesome. But it was awesome while it lasted. I love my 10man guild, I love I can progress with it, despite the drawbacks (RNG on loot, mostly - an advantage 25 already has).

    I don't see why anyone wants to cling on ye olde ways. If you love 25 that much, you can 25 - if you don't, well, you don't. Why should 25 have extra rewards beyond what already exists to begin with?
  1. sOvrn's Avatar
    This seems like a very.... weird idea?

    I don't think this is the proper incentive for 25 mans. They should be rewarded better. I wasn't playing during ICC, but the community really dropped the ball there it seems like. I'm in a 10 man guild and in no way, shape or form do I think having MUCH better incentives for 25 man is a 'bad' thing, that somehow will hurt my experience of raiding.

    You guys done goofed man, and the result is the decline of 25s... Blizzard looks like they have no idea how to fix the problem, on top of that. What is the thinking behind this? Omg let's all disband our 10s and go to 25s because there's a MORE THAN SLIGHT chance that the items drops are thunderforged? This is not realistic and thus not a proper incentive to maintain 25 mans.

    Honestly, I think the concept is flawed from the start. You can't cater to two types of raiding almost equally when the effort to maintain one is much higher than the other.
  1. Mementomori1993's Avatar
    I only raid 10 mans.

    This is a great idea. It should keep a lot of 25 man raiders happy, whist giving 10 mans something else to look for. THIS IS A GOOD CHANGE NOW STOP BITCHING!

    /threaddddddd
  1. Docdruid's Avatar
    I think this is a bad idea, as some have already posted, it will create a lot more disappointment than happiness.
    For me personally I don't like it, it will make my BiS list a headache.
  1. worstdpswarrioralive's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Djouga View Post
    And half a dozen bosses you forgot to mention, being the clueless average retard you are.
    Stone Guard
    Garalon
    Amber Shaper
    Shek'zeer
    Protectors of the Endless
    You must be stupid. Stone guards means you have 1 less ability to deal with, less damage going out, and makes juggling the energy meters on the dogs much more simple. In heroic it's even easier, hell you get a 1/4 chance to dodge a mechanic that is annoying to deal with since jade is just ae raid damage
    Garalon is much easier on 10m, the damage requirement is much lower and theirs less raid damage, on top of the kiting situation being much easier.
    Ambershaper This is fight is probably the same on 10 and 25, constructs are the same, monstrosity has less life so stacking the debuff is easier, also explosions mean less people to top off.
    Shekzeer. Only 1 person gets visions in 10man, I don't see how that makes it harder, with only one person to dispel, losing people being feared out is not that big of an issue. Also ads don't even need to be prisoned because of their low total health, they can actually be tanked next to shekzeer since there is only one ad phase.
    Protectors is not harder, its on par for elite and normal. The only real qustionable fight would be tsulong, and thats solely on the day phase where ad management and assignments require raiders to rotate more.
  1. Chrispotter's Avatar
    BRB leaving my ten man for 25 man guild.
  1. DarthMetatron's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    "in my highly blinkered view 10m is clearly better...well... just BECAUSE, ok?!"

    So 10m is harder because you have to get 10 skilled people together with the right composition?... ok... so when it requires you get 2.5x the number of skilled people together then it suddenly gets much easier of course. I don't see the logic.
    Earth to funny guy:
    10M is harder. Period. You need the skill level of each player in the 10M to be significantly higher than the average skill level in a 25M just because of all the advantages you gain. Not even having to worry about the raid buffs because you will always have every buff and debuff as a natural product of 25. 10M you actually have to craft your composition instead of throwing a bunch of driveling RANDOS together.

    You get more gear in 25, 8 more pieces per week for 16 bosses (or did they already raise it to 16?).
    You have the ability to carry a bunch of weaker DPS in 25, in 10 you might be able to carry 1.
    You can class stack in 25M, not an option in 10M.

    Name the advantages to 10M over 25M.
    I can think of 2, attendance and less crybabies.

    Myth Busted.
  1. Cruhz's Avatar
    someone just turned a fan on... waiting for something to put on it, but i'm wondering what...
  1. Drithien's Avatar
    As an addition to the loot system, to make things more interesting, I think that it is nice. However I don't see it changing things that much for the popularity of 25-man guilds.

    Something drastic would have to happen for things to change, not soft changes. 10-man guilds already have a gear disadvantage compared to 25-man guilds, and that hasn't stopped them from being overwhelmingly more popular. And this is just another slight gear disadvantage, not even as big as the existing one. Perhaps if the drop was almost guaranteed in 25-man and rare in 10-man. But still. It seems like not a satisfying insentive.
  1. Sam the Wiser's Avatar
    Alright change I guess. I do feel like we don't need more teir of gear tho. There way to much in this game now I swear.
  1. worstdpswarrioralive's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    Earth to funny guy:
    10M is harder. Period. You need the skill level of each player in the 10M to be significantly higher than the average skill level in a 25M just because of all the advantages you gain. Not even having to worry about the raid buffs because you will always have every buff and debuff as a natural product of 25. 10M you actually have to craft your composition instead of throwing a bunch of driveling RANDOS together.

    You get more gear in 25, 8 more pieces per week for 16 bosses.
    You have the ability to carry a bunch of weaker DPS in 25, in 10 you might be able to carry 1.
    You can class stack in 25M, not an option in 10M.

    Name the advantages to 10M over 25M.
    I can think of 2, attendance and less crybabies.

    Myth Busted.
    Try doing that on 25man garalon prenerf.

    We had 6 people on average 200k dps for the full 6min fight and the rest at 80k and we did not kill garalon. We also had healers kiting pheromones to give ranged dps more standing dps. Also stacked 6 shamans for six stormlash, and 4 warriors for a 4 crit banner rotation. We had to clear on 10 so we could work on progression for wind lord. Please stop talking. 10m garalong was such a cake walk.
  1. Shaley's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    BRB leaving my ten man for 25 man guild.
    You must've missed the part where 10 mans get Thunderforged items, too. Don't worry, half this board can't read either.
  1. Millennía's Avatar
    I am not sure I agree with Blizzard on this one. It doesn't really fix the problem because there can still be some situations if RNG is good were 10 man guilds can gear up in Thunderforged faster than 25 mans. It just feels like another band aid for the problem and not a solid solution. They just added more RNG to the game which was not needed, especially not in regards to loot and it just adds more things to gem, enchant, reforge, transmog and whatever else.
  1. Vivimord's Avatar
    I was excited until I read the 10/25 stuff.

    Meh. Don't like it.
  1. RicardoZ's Avatar
    This is just starting to get waaaaay too confusing. I keep losing interest in WoW for this exact reason, they just won't stop screwing with things.
  1. Midnitte's Avatar
    This new item designation is being added
    Is bein. lol...
  1. lagmoose's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Essenji View Post
    Nail, please meet Coffin.
    Liking the idea, disliking the fact that 10-man raiders get fucked over.
    How are they getting fucked over? 10 man raiders are still getting a chance at Thunderforged items, they'll just drop less frequently. I only raid LFR for now but I'm not jumping out going "BAWWWWWL LFR RAIDERS GET BENT OVER".

    I agree with the change and see absolutely no reason anyone should get bent out of shape over it.
  1. kaamila's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by worstdpswarrioralive View Post
    You must be stupid. Stone guards means you have 1 less ability to deal with, less damage going out, and makes juggling the energy meters on the dogs much more simple. In heroic it's even easier, hell you get a 1/4 chance to dodge a mechanic that is annoying to deal with since jade is just ae raid damage
    Garalon is much easier on 10m, the damage requirement is much lower and theirs less raid damage, on top of the kiting situation being much easier.
    Ambershaper This is fight is probably the same on 10 and 25, constructs are the same, monstrosity has less life so stacking the debuff is easier, also explosions mean less people to top off.
    Shekzeer. Only 1 person gets visions in 10man, I don't see how that makes it harder, with only one person to dispel, losing people being feared out is not that big of an issue. Also ads don't even need to be prisoned because of their low total health, they can actually be tanked next to shekzeer since there is only one ad phase.
    Protectors is not harder, its on par for elite and normal. The only real qustionable fight would be tsulong, and thats solely on the day phase where ad management and assignments require raiders to rotate more.
    stone guards for 25man you can just ignore all the mechanics by healing through it. cant do that on 10man. im talking about when heroic msv first came out.
    garalon i agree except no the kiting situation isnt easier since in 10man, everyone has to kite, healers need to kite twice.
    ambershaper is the same for both sizes.
    shekzeer 2 people get visions, not 1. in 10man you need 4 healers. definitely harder on 10man.
    tsulong i agree that it can/cannot be harder than 25man.
    sha of fear is harder on 10man as well. in 25man you have 2 dps in the back passing the football, and you have enough healers/cooldowns to heal through the huddle. in 10man you have to pass the football to every huddle or else its a wipe since most often than not, 1 of the 2 healers gets huddled.
    the problem with 25man and 10man besides the fact that you can carry less than stellar players in 25man more than 10(not talking about the best guilds in the world since everyone has to be amazing), is that 25man always has enough cooldowns where you can heal thru mechanics. picked up a player from a top 25man and when he would die to mechanics his excuse would be "oh we just always healed through it"
  1. Granyala's Avatar
    As a 25man raider I can only /facepalm at this change. All they do is introduce even more of their fucked up RNG crap.

    "Slightly" higher dropchance will most certainly incentivize no one to switch guilds, let alone format.
  1. Wikko's Avatar
    Wont be long before they change the lockouts to be separate aswell. That will get me get back to the game

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