Blizzard All Stars

[wariofan1]

They're basically taking everything out of DOTA that makes DOTA an interesting and fun game, without adding a new and fun gamemode (Dominion) like LoL did.

It's gonna be pretty crappy, but as long as it's free...

I think it looks pretty promising. And dude, nobody cares about Dominion, everybody began hating it after their first 5 matches because it's a backdoor game.

[moguri]

Yo there's no need for all this hatred. Why does there only have to be one MOBA game? Sure DOTA2 is great for a certain competitive type of person, this is for a more casual player. Just like there are games like Eve Online for hardcore players and WoW for casual players, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Fencers]

What do you find clunky about it? Is it because the heroes have turn speeds and cast timers?

Turn speed, cast times, passives as part of the main [QWER] kit, item menu, the creep build-up mechanic, the unpredictability of buffs, casting tells, clarity in the menus, visual feedback, tactile feedback, etc.

None of which is to say DOTA2 is awful. I think it's the best MOBA out right now. However, DOTA2 is opposite in almost every way of a lean and streamlined game. Eg. Clunky by definition.

[PizzaSHARK]

I think it looks pretty promising. And dude, nobody cares about Dominion, everybody began hating it after their first 5 matches because it's a backdoor game.

Because Dominion isn't trying to be DotA like Summoner's Rift is, and if you're trying to be DotA, why not just play DotA?

There's a reason DOTA 2 hasn't changed anything from the first DOTA, and it's because nothing needs to be changed. Everything LoL, Blizzard Allstars, etc do is just dumbing the game down so it's more accessible to more players. This makes it have broader appeal and thus makes it more profitable, but at the expense of being a weaker game.

Again, use the beer analogy. Bud Light is popular, but that doesn't mean it tastes better than Sam Adams; anyone that'd say Bud Light is anywhere near as complex as Sam Adams is quite frankly someone who doesn't know what beer is.

[Kuntantee]

I wasn't calling League expertly crafted. I was hinting at the possibility of a future game designed in the genre away from the clunky design that came attached to it. Specifically, the mess that is DOTA1/2.

DotA 1/2 is not clunky at least not in my hands more like it's smooth as it can be. Maybe it's you who fail to control heroes smoothly? And random people on the internet says DotA is full with design flaws so it does not bring anything good for genre...What are you? Game designer? This forum is, somehow, full with game designers who knows everything.. The thing is a game with full of design flaws can not start a genre and there wouldn't be bunch of other games who inspired from it. That bold guy on the video was insulting gamers. Acting like gamers are bunch of retards who can't memorize certain amount of stuff and bullshitting about DotA saying "afk-farm"... I bet that idiot has never played DotA for sure. In a good DotA game there is not one second without action...and it starts even before creep spawn. I've seen team kills in roshan(Baron in LoL) where one team was trying to kill rosh at level 1 and the other team ganked them. If there is one thing that is intense in DotA that is action.

In my experience(trust me I've seen it a lot) those who bash dota those who fail to play it. I've never seen anyone plays dota as it meant to be and says this game sucks. I admit it's very very hard to pick-up game...Easy is good but hard is better.. LoL is good and Ballstars will be okay but in my opinion DotA is waaaay a head from current games of genre in almost every aspect.

[Lysah]

None of which is to say DOTA2 is awful. I think it's the best MOBA out right now. However, DOTA2 is opposite in almost every way of a lean and streamlined game. Eg. Clunky by definition.

Isn't that subjective? I mean, the same mechanics you call clunky I say add depth to the game. You can fake cast spells to make people make mistakes. Earlier today I was leoric against an SF with blink dagger, by cancelcasting my stun several times I got him to not only stop chasing me, but blink away from me completely, potentially saving my life at no cost to me because he got scared.

And of course, when I met him a few minutes later, he expected a fake cast and instead got a stun to the face and died.


Turn speed is also incredibly important. If you don't believe me go see watch bone fletcher for a few games. You'll notice that if his turn speed wasn't horribly atrocious he'd be absurdly overpowered with his ability to orb walk and kite.

I can see why passives might be considered boring or uncreative, however, there are a ton of completely uninteresting CHAMPIONS in LoL, not even to mention individual abilities. Honestly, when was the last time you thought Tryndamere's heal was all that exciting? It's basically a passive, it just gives you the illusion that you're doing something. And an ultimate like highlander? Is it really that much more interesting than reincarnation? I don't think so, honestly.

I mean, if we want to just pick two random (it wasn't random) heroes to compare, you can say that sure, SF has two passives, but even though Shen has four actives, SF has a lot more depth and is a lot more interesting than Shen.

Anyway, I appreciate LoL for what it does. I don't find it fun, though I don't mind that people do. I can't, however, agree that DotA is anything but an amazing game. And Kuntantee pretty much said the exact same thing I said earlier =p

[Wildmoon]

Complexity=/=deep gameplay. Dota2 doesn't need to be changed because it is supposed to be the same as Dota. Other games that are not the same as Dota are not necessary worse than Dota. Some people use the word "dumb down" without even know what gameplay depth means.

[Fencers]

Isn't that subjective? <snip>

No.

Do keep in mind "clunky" should not be thought of as "poor" or otherwise, "bad" design. By most accounts [& bore out by your own post here] the aspects of DOTA2 [& HON + LOL] I mentioned as clunky are not immediately obvious or lean. Is not the cliche we hear most often of DOtA2 [or if we want to move the conversation in a higher direction; Eve] re: it's difficulty to 'pick-up & play' or newcomer unfriendliness?

I am certain the internet is littered with commentaries of how tough DOTA2 is in approachability compared to other games. Should not have to type this, but the internet being what it is for seeing trees > forests; having a steep learning curve is not an intended slight on DOTA1/2.

Yea, I would agree DOTA2 is the deepest gameplay of all MOBAs- undeniably & objectively so. That is not in question. Defending DOTA2 on those grounds is unnecessary. Compactness of design, clarity and ease of of use are elements apart from depth or difficulty to master. Eg. Yoshi's Island, Tetris, Missile Command, Ico, etc.

More over, a more compact MOBA wouldn't invalidate DOTA2 anymore than Wizard 101 invalidates Eve.

This is what Blizzard are known for in design; streamline.



[The stuff you said about passives & boring/uncreative, etc is subjective. Never been the type to argue those points or even raise them in any posts I make. Being concerned with the subjectivity of fun or difficulty when talking about Design is not something I mix or make the mistake confusing. Design is abstract. One might find a certain design concept of a game 'un-fun', yet still note it's qualities & effectiveness.]

[PizzaSHARK]

Complexity=/=deep gameplay. Dota2 doesn't need to be changed because it is supposed to be the same as Dota. Other games that are not the same as Dota are not necessary worse than Dota. Some people use the word "dumb down" without even know what gameplay depth means.

Actually, complexity is very related to deep gameplay. It'd be stupid to say that blackjack is as complex as poker - there are fewer variables involved, so the maximum depth of the game is simply more limited. Period.

LoL removes denies, fakecasting, orbwalking, etc, so there are fewer variables. Fewer variables mean the skill ceiling overall is much lower than it is for DotA. There's no disagreeing with that point - it's pretty much just a fact. You not liking it or disagreeing with it doesn't make it less true.

[Wildmoon]

Actually, complexity is very related to deep gameplay. It'd be stupid to say that blackjack is as complex as poker - there are fewer variables involved, so the maximum depth of the game is simply more limited. Period.

LoL removes denies, fakecasting, orbwalking, etc, so there are fewer variables. Fewer variables mean the skill ceiling overall is much lower than it is for DotA. There's no disagreeing with that point - it's pretty much just a fact. You not liking it or disagreeing with it doesn't make it less true.

Chess is not complex. It's really easy to learn how it works but it is one of the most deepest game. I have never played LoL so I don't know about it. In fact only ARTS I have played are Dota and Dota2(not so much). I am just talking about game design in general. It's stupid to think that more=deeper. Talent tree is really good example of shallow gameplay that hide itself under many choices to make. Deep gameplay means high skill cap not high entry barrier.

[Lillpapps]

I would never play a MOBA game that doesnt have last hitting and denies. Last hits makes such a huge impact on the games that I feel that it needs to be there.

[Tokas]

looks fun, and it's free omg

[PizzaSHARK]

Chess is not complex. It's really easy to learn how it works but it is one of the most deepest game. I have never played LoL so I don't know about it. In fact only ARTS I have played are Dota and Dota2(not so much). I am just talking about game design in general. It's stupid to think that more=deeper. Talent tree is really good example of shallow gameplay that hide itself under many choices to make. Deep gameplay means high skill cap not high entry barrier.

What? Chess is immensely complex. Did you mean checkers?

[wariofan1]

Because Dominion isn't trying to be DotA like Summoner's Rift is, and if you're trying to be DotA, why not just play DotA?

There's a reason DOTA 2 hasn't changed anything from the first DOTA, and it's because nothing needs to be changed. Everything LoL, Blizzard Allstars, etc do is just dumbing the game down so it's more accessible to more players. This makes it have broader appeal and thus makes it more profitable, but at the expense of being a weaker game.

Again, use the beer analogy. Bud Light is popular, but that doesn't mean it tastes better than Sam Adams; anyone that'd say Bud Light is anywhere near as complex as Sam Adams is quite frankly someone who doesn't know what beer is.

Again, your opinion. I've always found Dota to be INCREDIBLY weak. I enjoy LoL because it has tighter and more solid gameplay, doesn't melt your eyes (I'm not talking about graphics, but the dark setting), a broader selection of heroes/champions that are viable, more items and it doesn't run on an outdated engine, which all in all actually makes Dota the weaker ''game'' (I don't consider it a game in itself, I consider it a Warcraft 3/Starcraft map). They've really just enhanced the game. Saying that games shouldn't exist for ''trying to be DotA'' is just stupid, that's like saying we don't need more WoW Expansions or more Super Mario games after the first ones. It is the same games essentially, but they expand on an outdated concept, making it fresh. I don't reject that some people may prefer Dota, that's fine, every man to his own, I just don't like it myself.

It is cool that they tried something new with the MOBA genre, but I'm just not for the backdooring party that is Dominion. Only a handful of champions are viable in there, none of which are mages, it is mostly just a bunch of AD/Hybrid champions that function in it, like Jax and Akali.

And I don't drink, so I can't use the ''beer analogy''.

[Wildmoon]

What? Chess is immensely complex. Did you mean checkers?

No, it's not. It's not hard to learn the basic at all. There's not much for you to learn before you can start playing it. You can teach someone to play chess within 15min. The complex part you are talking about is its depth. It's easy to learn, hard to master. That's an ideal game design.

[PizzaSHARK]

And I don't drink, so I can't use the ''beer analogy''.

Explains why you think LoL is better at being DotA than DotA, then :-/

DotA's gameplay is absolutely flawless; there's no reason to remove denying, add in crap like talents and summoner abilities, or anything else, it just waters down the result and makes it less intense and less interesting. You can go AFK during the first 30 minutes of a LoL match and miss absolutely nothing - there's no denying, so there's no point in watching the laning phase because half of the laning phase is missing.

Dominion is great; it's fun, it's fast, and it's a new take on the MOBA concept. Summoner's Rift is just a watered down version of DotA with none of the elements that make DotA so great (you're really missing out by not understanding the beer analogy.)

---------- Post added 2012-05-14 at 08:26 AM ----------

No, it's not. It's not hard to learn the basic at all. There's not much for you to learn before you can start playing it. You can teach someone to play chess within 15min. The complex part you are talking about is its depth. It's easy to learn, hard to master.

So is DotA. So is WoW. So is basically every game I've ever played. Last hitting and denying obey the same basic concept, once you understand those two concepts and how experience and gold gains work, there's not a whole lot else that you need to know in order to play and win games in DotA.

[Wildmoon]

So is DotA. So is WoW. So is basically every game I've ever played. Last hitting and denying obey the same basic concept, once you understand those two concepts and how experience and gold gains work, there's not a whole lot else that you need to know in order to play and win games in DotA.

That's not what I mean... by knowing it I mean you know everything about how chess works and it's up to you how you will play it. It's not the same in Dota. If you only know about last hitting then what about items recipe? How you are supposed to get the item you want if you don't know what to get first before you can combine it? The information you need to read is overwhelming. Anyway, that's how Dota works. It's good as it is but it's not wrong to try other idea too. It doesn't mean it will be worse than Dota.

[PizzaSHARK]

That's not what I mean... by knowing it I mean you know everything about how chess works and it's up to you how you will play it. It's not the same in Dota. If you only know about last hitting then what about items recipe? How you are supposed to get the item you want if you don't know what to get first before you can combine it? The information you need to read is overwhelming. Anyway, that's how Dota works. It's good as it is but it's not wrong to try other idea too. It doesn't mean it will be worse than Dota.

It absolutely will, if you're trying to be DotA. It's why Dominion is so fun and Summoner's Rift is so awful - one isn't trying to be DotA and is instead being something else, and the other is trying to be a pisswater version of DotA.

Chess hasn't changed in, I dunno, probably thousands of years - because it doesn't need to, it's great just the way it is. The standard "three lanes, creeps, jungle, towers, raxes," MOBA formula doesn't need to change, either - it's perfect the way it is. Changing or removing parts of it doesn't improve it in any way, shape, or form. LoL's Twisted Treeline is a great example of what you can do by shaking up that formula without trying to copy DotA, however - it's smaller, with fewer lanes and a more frenetic pace.

That is the kind of thing people need to be focusing on, because you're never going to beat DotA at being DotA.

[Minky]

Calling League of Legends "expertly crafted," is pretty hilarious. You're basically comparing Bud Light to Sam Adams and saying Bud Light is better because it's more popular.

Sure, it has larger market penetration and higher sales, but there isn't a single person out there that has an opinion worth listening to that will tell you they'd prefer a Bud Light to a Sam Adams.

I should just tack this onto the Examples list for "Unwarranted Self-importance".

[Deleted]

How is this going to be anagrammed then?

BASs? BAllS?