Make raid for casual and do it right!

[LairenyX]

Then that's your problem. Surprise, mate: LFR isn't required for anything. Back when the expack began, I started MSV as a new tank with 0 LFR experience and really only having heroic tank gear (and basically most of the guild raid was in the same boat), and we ended up clearing to Spirit Kings during our first week. LFR just accentuated the experience by giving us some leeway to practice and some gear, but honestly? Didn't need to do it, though I don't knock on the people who did.

If having LFR available "kills" raiding for you, that's a problem with you, not the game itself. You're honestly caring too much about an aspect that shouldn't affect you if you like normal raiding (and have a guild to raid with).

All I'm saying is that don't make casual raiding's setting the same as hardcore raiding setting. Also don't make the gear same in look and different by color rarity. Casual = blue; hardcore = purple.

Then casual can do casual and getting the appropriate gear and then the ycan do hardcore afterward if they want... but they'll prolly never be finish with casual content cause they're casual DUUUHHH.

[Deleted]

You know what? I'll agree with you when you can give me a definition of "casual" that everyone will agree on.

Good luck.

PS: Oh, and by the way, don't bother trying to reason with him. Just look at his previous threads.

[Raxxed]

That's impossible because you're a casual. You'll never be able to finish casual raiding content.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:33 AM ----------



That's why I said earlier the raids need to be different setting with different rank for gear... like in Vanilla.

Casual get blues and rare chances for purple at the end boss or in quest line design to up their tier 0 to 0.5.

That's far too much work to expect from blizzard, they abandoned the idea and we've not seen it in nearly 7 years.
I wouldn't complain. I loved the 10mans in vanilla. Spending an hour finding a group for UBRS then finding out no-one had the key, oh the laughs that were had.

[LairenyX]

What? Casual doesn't mean bad.

This was one of my gripes with TBC. The problem was 10 mans in TBC consisted of Karazhan and Zul'Aman. 2 raids for an entire expansion. There were that many 25 mans in the initial tier of the expansion. I'd be fine with separate 10 man raids (I'd love it, actually). It would give them so much more freedom in encounter design and balancing.

What? no I didn't say bad. I said casual mean play LESS... so if they play LESS then they'll never finish casual content, hence by the time they're done, they should be maximum casual content, which is, when comepared league to league, the same as a hardcore with maximum hardcore content.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:39 AM ----------

That's far too much work to expect from blizzard, they abandoned the idea and we've not seen it in nearly 7 years.
I wouldn't complain. I loved the 10mans in vanilla. Spending an hour finding a group for UBRS then finding out no-one had the key, oh the laughs that were had.

Why do you say that like a blame on someone? blame yourself for not getting the key omg. Vanilla is bad cause I didn't have the key. Geeze! Get teh freaking key.

Making thing casual = removing key is just stupid.

Casual mean you play less... but you get the key eventually... meaning you get the key SLOWLY.

[Jackishi]

Technicality aside, assume URBS, LBRS, Scholo, and Strath were 10 man raid for casual. Do it like this is my point.

Except they weren't. They were zerg fests, not raids. It's almost exactly how LFR is now, except instead of making normal mode raids accessible in the same setting with some semblance of difficulty, you're making 5 man dungeons into zerg fests with no essential difficulty level for the chance at less than spectacular loot that you could do with a 5 man...in the same setting.

You're arguing semantics and technicalities where none exist just to mask your own distaste for LFR, as well as having a blatant misunderstanding of what it means to be casual.

[skitzy129]

They do make casual raids. It's called LFR difficulty.

Correction.

They do make casual raids. It's called Normal difficulty.

[Lynarii]

Umm... Scholo and Strath were 5 man dungeons. You could, at first, raid them but they were always designed to be a 5 man and were later restricted to that. The only '10 person raid' in Vanilla was UBRS (after they capped it at 15 for a while, then 10). Then you had the 2 20 man raids (ZG and AQ 20) and finally the main raids.

This was a terrible system, there was little to no working together when people 'raided' Stratholme, you'd just get sometimes up to 40 people running in all different directions doing random shit and hoping they were lucky enough to go the same direction a healer went.

If you want to call someone else out about not having done 10 man Strath, then you should have known better than to talk about raiding it and Tier 0.5 in the same sentence. Dead Man's Plea (the quest for the 45 minute Baron run) was not added to the game until patch 1.10, which was not-coincidentally the same patch that capped Strath, Scholo, and BRD at 5 people. It also was the patch that came out in between AQ and Naxx (less than a year before BC came out), primarily BECAUSE people were complaining that there was nothing to do for anyone not in a raid guild.

Yeah, Vanilla is not exactly the model I'd pick for good casual play.

[Raxxed]

What? no I didn't say bad. I said casual mean play LESS... so if they play LESS then they'll never finish casual content, hence by the time they're done, they should be maximum casual content, which is, when comepared league to league, the same as a hardcore with maximum hardcore content.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:39 AM ----------



Why do you say that like a blame on someone? blame yourself for not getting the key omg. Vanilla is bad cause I didn't have the key. Geeze! Get teh freaking key.

Making thing casual = removing key is just stupid.

Casual mean you play less... but you get the key eventually... meaning you get the key SLOWLY.

What ARE you talking about?
I wasnt being sarcastic, I loved the 10mans in vanilla, organising the group was just as fun as the raid itself.

[LairenyX]

Except they weren't. They were zerg fests, not raids. It's almost exactly how LFR is now, except instead of making normal mode raids accessible in the same setting with some semblance of difficulty, you're making 5 man dungeons into zerg fests with no essential difficulty level for the chance at less than spectacular loot that you could do with a 5 man...in the same setting.

You're arguing semantics and technicalities where none exist just to mask your own distaste for LFR, as well as having a blatant misunderstanding of what it means to be casual.

Casual = less playing omg. So if you don't have time to play alot then you don't have time to deal with more complex content. This doesn't mean you're doing "baby" content. This mean you're doing raiding but raiding designed for casual, which is what 10 man in Vanilla really were.

HEY, you can called 10 man raiding zerg fest if you want but I can call a tomato a potato too.. deosn't change the fact that it's a tomato. So calling it a zergfest doesn't change the fact that it was a raid designed for people who don't play alot, hence, don't have time to deal with complex mechanic.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:46 AM ----------

Umm... Scholo and Strath were 5 man dungeons. You could, at first, raid them but they were always designed to be a 5 man and were later restricted to that. The only '10 person raid' in Vanilla was UBRS (after they capped it at 15 for a while, then 10). Then you had the 2 20 man raids (ZG and AQ 20) and finally the main raids.

This was a terrible system, there was little to no working together when people 'raided' Stratholme, you'd just get sometimes up to 40 people running in all different directions doing random shit and hoping they were lucky enough to go the same direction a healer went.

If you want to call someone else out about not having done 10 man Strath, then you should have known better than to talk about raiding it and Tier 0.5 in the same sentence. Dead Man's Plea (the quest for the 45 minute Baron run) was not added to the game until patch 1.10, which was not-coincidentally the same patch that capped Strath, Scholo, and BRD at 5 people. It also was the patch that came out in between AQ and Naxx (less than a year before BC came out), primarily BECAUSE people were complaining that there was nothing to do for anyone not in a raid guild.

Yeah, Vanilla is not exactly the model I'd pick for good casual play.

Yeah yeah sure, ermm... just imagine Scholo, strath front/back, UBRS, LBRS were all 10 man instead of what they actually were... and ermm.. they had the quest line to upgrade from 0 to 0.5. This is perfect for 10 man casual raid. Different setting, different gear rank, unique environment.

Perfect casual raiding design. Since you're casual, you'll finish it by the end of the expansion.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:47 AM ----------

What ARE you talking about?
I wasnt being sarcastic, I loved the 10mans in vanilla, organising the group was just as fun as the raid itself.

Oh okay, sorry. I misunderstood you. I thought you were ANGRY at the design of vanilla raid because you needed to get a KEY and since no body has a key, it was bad and hence not casual friendly.

[Tomana]

They had it right during Vanilla. They need to mix it with TBC.

Not this again...
Look here: your model means, in essence, that means that huge sums of money are poured into content that only a few percents of the playerbase will ever see. Economically speaking this is stupid (not to mention unfair to the 90+ % of the playerbase).

[Nadev]

What? no I didn't say bad. I said casual mean play LESS... so if they play LESS then they'll never finish casual content, hence by the time they're done, they should be maximum casual content, which is, when comepared league to league, the same as a hardcore with maximum hardcore content.

Right. I guess I took umbrage at the suggestion that the old 60 dungeons should be 10 man raids.

If they had staggered the releases, that would be fine. But there's vastly varying levels of casual. A casual group of good players could likely clear such a raid tier and be done for the entire expansion. Again, TBC had the right idea, but my two concerns with it were:

a) Only two raids for an entire expansion

b) They were largely irrelevant to the main theme of the expansion

[LairenyX]

Not this again...
Look here: your model means, in essence, that means that huge sums of money are poured into content that only a few percents of the playerbase will ever see. Economically speaking this is stupid (not to mention unfair to the 90+ % of the playerbase).

No you have it wrong. It's not pay for content. It's pay for the whole thing. People who didn't do it paid for it, so blizzard is not at a economic disadvantage... and as for this not being fair or controversial? well that's just semantic.

I say it's good cause raider had something to look forward to... I mean... you can only do 1 thing at a time... and if you don't have time to finish casual level stuff then that's not rlly nobody's fault.

Again, it's not pay per content. It's pay for the whole thing but didn't do.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:54 AM ----------

Right. I guess I took umbrage at the suggestion that the old 60 dungeons should be 10 man raids.

If they had staggered the releases, that would be fine. But there's vastly varying levels of casual. A casual group of good players could likely clear such a raid tier and be done for the entire expansion. Again, TBC had the right idea, but my two concerns with it were:

a) Only two raids for an entire expansion

b) They were largely irrelevant to the main theme of the expansion

Well, if the good casual finish early... then they can begin with the begining of hardcore raiding. That's perfect!

...tho I feel we're going to eventually get to a point where casual don't have time to learn hardcore raiding complexity so it should be made into zerg fest as well... hence LFR...

Is this fun for casual tho? IDK... maybe casual should disband their guild after finish casual content and go separate way to join hardcore guild... then the hardcore guild can explain only the mechanic that is necessary to finish the fight for the casual person... then the casual people can experience the hardcore raiding without having to learn the complexity by themselves.

But I don't want LFR version of hardcore raid where you're zerg festing. That just kill my mentality to do the real raid.... like I ask... why should I do this hardcore raid/normal raid when I can do the LFR and experience the content?

...but why would I do the LFR if all I get is "fake/plastic" gear?

So this is WHYYYYYY having LFR kill my mentality to do both see?

This is why I want separate setting and environment.

LFR = kill my mentality to do BOTH.

[Stasis007]

I can definitely see the benefits of having a 'casual tuned' version of the 10 man raids. It wouldn't be much extra effort on Blizzard's part, it would essentially be the same as the progressive old-content nerfs we see currently. 20% reduce health/damage, etc. Have it drop LFR ilevel gear.

I also agree that the current Raids are tuned too hard for true casual Guilds. Where the members probably just have a surface understanding of their classes and no desire or time to research raid encounters. Or maybe it's a group of rl friends that want to have a few wines and an evening of light raiding hilarity.

Who are we to judge.

Not sure that I see any downsides. Maybe some 'wannabe progression' guilds might complain bitterly how these 'casuals' are seeing the content before them. But gate the casual lockout a couple of weeks behind normal mode so the real progression guilds are progressing on Heroics and won't give a rats if someone else gets their normal kills with less effort.

[Tomana]

No you have it wrong. It's not pay for content. It's pay for the whole thing. People who didn't do it paid for it, so they're not at a economic disadvantage... and as for this not being fair or controversial? well that's just semantic.

No, that's not semantics. Developing raids costs money and resources. Money tends to be finite (unfortunately). Consequently, any company with half a brain will spend it into stuff that will benefit the largest portion possible of its customers, or failing that, will take an investment proportional to the return.

Vanilla and BC raids took a lot of resources to develop but were not seen or experienced by an overwhelming part of WoW population. Economically speaking it is throwing money out of the window.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 02:11 AM ----------

I can definitely see the benefits of having a 'casual tuned' version of the 10 man raids. It wouldn't be much extra effort on Blizzard's part, it would essentially be the same as the progressive old-content nerfs we see currently. 20% reduce health/damage, etc. Have it drop LFR ilevel gear.

You mean having a 10 man of lesser difficulty like in LK?
(sorry it's late I'm not necessarily following )

[LairenyX]

No, that's not semantics. Developing raids costs money and resources. Money tends to be finite (unfortunately). Consequently, any company with half a brain will spend it into stuff that will benefit the largest portion possible of its customers, or failing that, will take an investment proportional to the return.

Vanilla and BC raids took a lot of resources to develop but were not seen or experienced by an overwhelming part of WoW population. Economically speaking it is throwing money out of the window.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 02:11 AM ----------



You mean having a 10 man of lesser difficulty like in LK?
(sorry it's late I'm not necessarily following )

What nooo it's not like that at all. Just because casual players doesn't see end game content... how do you know end game content doesn't affect them at all? how do you know for example that casual players don't have hope and dreams and desire of getting to end game content simply because it exist? and this hope, dream, and desire can motivate the casual to keep subscribing to try and work toward the end game content?

I've never reached 1800 in Cata in PVP, I've only killed 2 boss in SSC in TBC, Hydraxian Waterlord and Lurker... I'm a true mid of the road casual.

...but I have strong feeling for content that were there but I wasn't experiencing.

This feeling I have for unexperienced endgame content totally justify blizzard work to make it. So what if I didn't see it? i felt strongly that i wanted to see it and I was working toward it. If I had more time or was at a different age then I would have gotten to see it. I paid for it... so they're not wasting money.

Just cause player don't see it, doesn't mean it is a waste of money, SERIOUSLY.

[jbombard]

It all comes down to how can Blizzard provide the most people with something to do for as little development costs as possible. The answer is copy and pasting raids and recoloring gear.

[Tomana]

Just cause player don't see it, doesn't mean it is a waste of money, SERIOUSLY.

Not if instead, you can release something that player can experience. What generated WoW's initial subs in Vanilla and BC was not raiding, but the world, 5-mans and probably PVP (not to mention WoW has always been a casual game, compared to its initial competitors like EQ and LA. Raiding was a tiny minority.

[LairenyX]

It all comes down to how can Blizzard provide the most people with something to do for as little development costs as possible. The answer is copy and pasting raids and recoloring gear.

They should have had it like how they had it before, making content that, potentially, most player will never see.

The content that were not reachable still affects the casual player strongly. I felt it. I always youtube stuff I couldn't see so it's not like LFR was a better option to seeing it.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 01:29 AM ----------

Not if instead, you can release something that player can experience. What generated WoW's initial subs in Vanilla and BC was not raiding, but the world, 5-mans and probably PVP (not to mention WoW has always been a casual game, compared to its initial competitors like EQ and LA. Raiding was a tiny minority.

No that's not true. What generated WoW's intital subs and kept it going was the world AND the end game content. I don't see mass quitting after ppl reaching max level. That end game content kept the excitement going, even if it was unreachable because casual progression is SLOWER. You still looked forward to it, even if it was far away.

This is better than making easy stuff that I can easily do now... this will not generate any excitement, period.

I don't want something to do, I want something that excite me.

[jbombard]

They should have had it like how they had it before, making content that, potentially, most player will never see.

The content that were not reachable still affects the casual player strongly. I felt it. I always youtube stuff I couldn't see so it's not like LFR was a better option to seeing it.

How we all feel they should have it is irrelevant, this has been the direction they have been pushing the game for some time now. Back in vanilla the casuals weren't all screaming we want to raid casually, they were screaming that they wanted more solo/small group content and that they were more important than the 2%, while the raiders were all screaming they were the hardcore fans and they put in more so they deserved to get more. Nobody wanted to be doing the same content at that time, that is just where we ended up because they is the direction Blizzard has been taking us.

They aren't going to change it after spending years and years to get everyone on the raid gear treadmill. It comes down to like it or leave it, because the cost/benefit analysis has told Blizzard that it isn't worth developing specifically for one group and it is better to force everyone to do crap they don't like.

[LairenyX]

How we all feel they should have it is irrelevant, this has been the direction they have been pushing the game for some time now. Back in vanilla the casuals weren't all screaming we want to raid casually, they were screaming that they wanted more solo/small group content and that they were more important than the 2%, while the raiders were all screaming they were the hardcore fans and they put in more so they deserved to get more. Nobody wanted to be doing the same content at that time, that is just where we ended up because they is the direction Blizzard has been taking us.

They aren't going to change it after spending years and years to get everyone on the raid gear treadmill. It comes down to like it or leave it, because the cost/benefit analysis has told Blizzard that it isn't worth developing specifically for one group and it is better to force everyone to do crap they don't like.

Fine, when the game dies TBH, I feel blizzard sub are leaking now this will happen:

1) The blizzard defender will reason "WoW died because it was old and people got bored"
2) The complainer will go "WoW died because you made the game into a state that was not exciting and fun to play"

Blizzard will agree with people number 1... and so a GREAT TRAGEDY happened.

They game died for reason 2, blizzard they accepted another reason 1, which wasn't the cause, for its death.