Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[pallyopness]

Most of the people on this forum I have seen who have asked for normal modes to be more generously tuned are old hands at raiding who are currently being tuned out of normal modes because they've gotten harder.

If you were good enough to raid in wrath it's no guarantee you can still raid, because raids keep getting harder and harder and less generously tuned.

I somewhat disagree with this for a couple reasons. I had 4 members come back to the game that hadnt played since early EARLY cata or late wrath. They were solid raiders. They stepped right into our core group without hesitation or complaints of the skill level desired. In fact, the ONLY reason we downed lei shen is because one of those people who hadnt tanked since that period came back and happened to be on for that one night. He stepped right in and didnt miss a beat. 493 ilvl guardian druid to be exact.....his home life causes him to miss raiding full time, so he is a sub in as needed.

[NeverStop]

In Cataclysm, after the success that was the easiness of most of Wrath, they gave the middle finger to most of their casual customers. Remarkably, this led to sub losses.

In MoP, they made the end game grindy (great reduction in VP production rate, for example), and moved organized guild raiding out of reach of most players (again, a middle finger extended to that population.) PvP has also been horrible in MoP.

Was the 9 months of 4.3 not casual enough? The game should have been gaining tons of subs because apparently easy raids = more subs.

By the way, H Madness of Deathwing was the most killed Heroic endboss since ICC. Heck, more guilds killed H Madness than normal 25 man Lich King.

[Duronos]

I bought my friend MoP and he was doing normal mode raids within 2 weeks. He had a shit load of gear and guess what, he's already bored with the game, I thought the entire point of an MMO is longevity not to be something where you can get enough in 2 weeks. That's too fast, far too fast.

[Well]

No, I really don't believe that. Being a good in-general player myself, I don't think that ToT is hard. It is a raid created for me, and I am willing to complete it all, now starting hcs.

[Daedelus]

Cuties only and Death by Taxes for instance.

I hope that's a typo. It's Death and Taxes.

"...in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes" - Benjamin Franklin

What do they teach at school these days?

[Osmeric]

Was the 9 months of 4.3 not casual enough? The game should have been gaining tons of subs because apparently easy raids = more subs.

Why should it have gained subs? It's hard to get people back once you've ticked them off, and the last tier of an expansion isn't terribly attractive.

4.3 stopped the sub bleed for half a year. Then a bunch of people walked away at the end. I don't blame the difficulty pullback in 4.3 for that; I blame the entire expansion.

[Duronos]

Was the 9 months of 4.3 not casual enough? The game should have been gaining tons of subs because apparently easy raids = more subs.

By the way, H Madness of Deathwing was the most killed Heroic endboss since ICC.

I was playing pretty casually during that time and I was like "seriously Blizzard, how the fuck am I doing heroic Deathwing?" I know there is something wrong with the game if I'm killing the endboss of HC difficulty. I was genuinely surprised at how much people suck at WoW too, I mean there are guys who will stand in the fucking fire (YES THE FUCKING FIRE, THE MOST TRIVIAL OF THINGS TO GET OUT OF!!!!) just to keep their DPS up so the raid doesn't start raging at them. I wasn't in the best of gear but I was doing just enough and was avoiding everything I was supposed too but was getting blamed for not keeping up with this fucker. My friend and I were watching this guy literally just stand still and not avoiding anything...

Took like 3 hours for our dumbass of a raid leader to figure out why were always wiping, I was so pissed. I was getting blamed for having on-par DPS with shitty gear, come on now. :/

[Deleted]

I somewhat disagree with this for a couple reasons. I had 4 members come back to the game that hadnt played since early EARLY cata or late wrath. They were solid raiders. They stepped right into our core group without hesitation or complaints of the skill level desired. In fact, the ONLY reason we downed lei shen is because one of those people who hadnt tanked since that period came back and happened to be on for that one night. He stepped right in and didnt miss a beat. 493 ilvl guardian druid to be exact.....his home life causes him to miss raiding full time, so he is a sub in as needed.

Numbers don't lie and override your personal anecdote. Normal mode raiding has cratered in T14 and not recovered, with most of the stuck people getting stuck on garalon. That's those guilds which got past stone guards, btw - many guilds will have given up there (after a successful DS.) There are (on average) 6 more mechanics per boss in Tot compared to ICC and rotations have given way to priority systems, all of which requires more attention and memory (aka skill.)

Sorry about that.

[pallyopness]

dont have to be sorry, apparently my players adapt better than most as I am finding out through this forum. apparently my entire raid team is elite as fuck since we can go 12/12 regular lol. Guilds like method and paragon must just walk into boss fights and matrix style them. bosses must just cave to their will and fall over dead.

[Phuongvi]

ToT is not too challenging,
The new player base suck or simply don't care about progression, they want fast epic loot
Most of the the player with the progression mentallity left the game.

Blizz dev should consider that most of the people don't care anymore, should adjust to the new playerbase,

considering they made raiding overrated since Cataclysm,
With the LFR, players don't have the patience to whippe 2 hours on the same boss.


This is not TBC anymore

[Deleted]

dont have to be sorry, apparently my players adapt better than most as I am finding out through this forum. apparently my entire raid team is elite as fuck since we can go 12/12 regular lol. Guilds like method and paragon must just walk into boss fights and matrix style them. bosses must just cave to their will and fall over dead.

Yes, you are.

Everyone else isn't.

Obvious conclusion - you do heroics and normals are detuned so that normal people can do them.

[pallyopness]

Yes, you are.

Everyone else isn't.

Obvious conclusion - you do heroics and normals are detuned so that normal people can do them.

but that is the thing, we dont see ourselves as elite players i guess. we just downed lei shen regular sunday. doing heroics this week. I dont think that is an elite raid team by any means. I see that as above average but not elite. average players will take longer indeed but still is doable, they just want to do it faster like the above average players do it. everyone wont be happy until clearing 12/12 is possible for everyone in the entire game the first week its out. the separation in kill times makes people jealous and they see red like a jealous girlfriend.

[Deleted]

but that is the thing, we dont see ourselves as elite players i guess. we just downed lei shen regular sunday.

top 10% or 15% of the raiding players, top 2% of total playerbase then. Grats

doing heroics this week. I dont think that is an elite raid team by any means. I see that as above average but not elite. average players will take longer indeed but still is doable, they just want to do it faster like the above average players do it. everyone wont be happy until clearing 12/12 is possible for everyone in the entire game the first week its out. the separation in kill times makes people jealous and they see red like a jealous girlfriend.

Being stuck behind horridon for a month has kindof nuked this tier for very many raiders (and these are the ones who made it through T14. )

Shits overtuned, matey.

[hyphnos]

but that is the thing, we dont see ourselves as elite players i guess. we just downed lei shen regular sunday. doing heroics this week. I dont think that is an elite raid team by any means. I see that as above average but not elite. average players will take longer indeed but still is doable, they just want to do it faster like the above average players do it. everyone wont be happy until clearing 12/12 is possible for everyone in the entire game the first week its out. the separation in kill times makes people jealous and they see red like a jealous girlfriend.

Well, you're among top 100k players in a game of millions. While this may not make you the elite of the elite, it does make you part of 6600 guilds that have beaten normal.

Your view of your self, isn't really relevant. Statistically, your guild is rare and that makes you elite. I happen to be a physicist and a fairly ordinary one, yet in a pool of millions of random people I'm utterly completely exceptional when it comes to math and science. It's not all that hard for me to understand there are not millions of people who have had the interest and training to do what I do and just because all of them didn't make the same choices I did, doesn't mean that they are all lazy and stupid.

The same goes for all you who are exceptionally good at WoW. You are because of choices you made and were able to make in how to apportion your time and attention and just because other people, a great many other people, choose not to do so, doesn't make them morally defective for wanting the entertainment they pay for to be entertaining.

Blizzard is in this to make money and have entered a mode whereby endgame group content consists of raiding and scenarios. It is not reasonable to expect that of that content, the one with the most development time and complexity (raiding) can continue to serve 200 to 400k players out of 8 million.

The one sure way to kill the game is to keep making it harder and harder until only 0.1% of players can do the one thing Blizzard seems to want to make: raids.

[Odina]

Most of the people on this forum I have seen who have asked for normal modes to be more generously tuned are old hands at raiding who are currently being tuned out of normal modes because they've gotten harder.

If you were good enough to raid in wrath it's no guarantee you can still raid, because raids keep getting harder and harder and less generously tuned.

I've yet to see a 25 man wrath raider say normals are too hard. However 10 man wrath raiders that say 10 man is too hard now are a dime a dozzen!

[Deleted]

Being stuck behind horridon for a month has kindof nuked this tier for very many raiders (and these are the ones who made it through T14. )

Shits overtuned, matey.

More like those players need to improve themselves and execute tactics better, they have even nerfed Horridon after we killed him in 496 ilvl.
If you cant bother to improve yourself and read up on any guides available on the internet on the matter, there's allways LFR or doing something else.

[Odina]

Being stuck behind horridon for a month has kindof nuked this tier for very many raiders (and these are the ones who made it through T14. )

Shits overtuned, matey.

Go take a look at the horridon help thread in the raiding forms that had a druid tank with a 450 wepp and all there raiders were basically gemmed wrong etc and yet after a month got the kill in still crap gear with inccorect gemming etc. How can it be overtuned if you can come in with some pre 5 man heroic gear and beat it?

[Deleted]

I've yet to see a 25 man wrath raider say normals are too hard. However 10 man wrath raiders that say 10 man is too hard now are a dime a dozzen!

Numbers > your opinions.

More like those players need to improve themselves and execute tactics better, they have even nerfed Horridon after we killed him in 496 ilvl.
If you cant bother to improve yourself and read up on any guides available on the internet on the matter, there's allways LFR or doing something else.

not going to happen.

[Osmeric]

I've yet to see a 25 man wrath raider say normals are too hard. However 10 man wrath raiders that say 10 man is too hard now are a dime a dozzen!

I was a 25 man wrath raider.

[Deleted]

Go take a look at the horridon help thread in the raiding forms that had a druid tank with a 450 wepp and all there raiders were basically gemmed wrong etc and yet after a month got the kill in still crap gear with inccorect gemming etc. How can it be overtuned if you can come in with some pre 5 man heroic gear and beat it?

Because it's mechanical difficulty, not numerical.

i.e. most players are up against their ability to remember and react. Can't be overcome with "effort".