How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[RickJamesLich]

You aren't even trying replying to what I actually said or what's actually at hand. You are just spouting random irrelevant crap about LFR and proffessions and the catch-up mechanisms.

lol, you pretty much dodged everything I said. First, I was saying we should implement the fine as it is option because there's a majority here saying just that. Then I add that there's plenty of new content for people that can't handle normal modes: heroic scenarios, northern barrens, challenge modes, on top of all of that they can do tier 14 raids if they *really* want a raiding experience. And trust me, between VP, LFR gear, and challenge mode gear, it shouldn't be too hard for anyone. The "easy mode" guys don't really have any points left now that 5.3 is out.

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 04:17 PM ----------

some people literally just want gear handed to them for killing patchwerk.

This, pretty much. Blizz gave one mode where you can get epics while ignoring boss mechanics and even going afk, I don't think we need another mode like this.

[Nobleshield]

lol, you pretty much dodged everything I said. First, I was saying we should implement the fine as it is option because there's a majority here saying just that. Then I add that there's plenty of new content for people that can't handle normal modes: heroic scenarios, northern barrens, challenge modes, on top of all of that they can do tier 14 raids if they *really* want a raiding experience. And trust me, between VP, LFR gear, and challenge mode gear, it shouldn't be too hard for anyone. The "easy mode" guys don't really have any points left now that 5.3 is out.

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 04:17 PM ----------



This, pretty much. Blizz gave one mode where you can get epics while ignoring boss mechanics and even going afk, I don't think we need another mode like this.

The argument has not been "I want to ignore boss mechanics and go AFK" while still getting "phat lewtz" the argument is that the DIFFICULTY CURVE is too great for AVERAGE guilds in normal raids, where LFR is NOT a viable option for them. And that point continually gets lost in the sea of "It's fine as is" or "LFR is terrible" or "We need an easy mode for these people".

[Bombino]

I was just thinking today what if they made heroic and normal lockouts for past tiers separate? and current tier remained how it is.

This way you can use elder charms on LFR, Normal, and Heroic; all 3 once per week, with all the elder charms and increased % loot bonus, I would think people would have a harder time complaining about gearing alts/new characters.

I still wish that they would somehow add easier x-realm integration for recruiting/finding guilds.

[RickJamesLich]

The argument has not been "I want to ignore boss mechanics and go AFK" while still getting "phat lewtz" the argument is that the DIFFICULTY CURVE is too great for AVERAGE guilds in normal raids, where LFR is NOT a viable option for them. And that point continually gets lost in the sea of "It's fine as is" or "LFR is terrible" or "We need an easy mode for these people".

How is LFR not a viable option though? You can queue up with as many friends as you want to and you can use stuff like vent if you want to as well. Not to mention, they still have the tier 14 raids, so in a lot of ways, they already have the easy mode they are looking for.

[Deleted]

How is LFR not a viable option though? You can queue up with as many friends as you want to and you can use stuff like vent if you want to as well. Not to mention, they still have the tier 14 raids, so in a lot of ways, they already have the easy mode they are looking for.

Fun occurs at the point between frustration and success.

LFR is too easy.

Normals are too hard.

No fun.

Understand?

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 07:17 PM ----------

A couple of times I've asked people (Firefly, IIRC) to look over at WoW Progress and see just how raiding numbers have fallen off a cliff since WotLK. Another reason for doing that is reminding people just how small a part of the playerbase actually raids at all. That being said, I'll tell you what else has fallen off a cliff in Mists of Pandaria; the number of dungeons.

Although the number of heroic raiders is pitifully small in the grand scheme of things, I have a hard time believing that anyone who plays for a month or more doesn't, at some stage, go into a dungeon. Personally, I love dungeons - they're a small place where a group can go in and experience both some shiny loot, and a specific part of the story. In the history of WoW, I think dungeons are probably the most stalwart content the game really has (anecdotal, of course).

Unfortunately, as hinted by Injin earlier, when people ask Blizzard about dungeons, the response is typically this:

"Sure, we can do more dungeons, but would you not rather have more raids?"

On the forums, a lot of people nod their head and think that, actually, that's a fair trade off. Gief moar raidz, plox. But then I think that if Blizzard were to canvass the opinion of the entire current playerbase (impossible probably, but humour me) on whether they'd like more dungeons or more raids, I'm pretty certain that the choice would be more dungeons.

Overwhelmingly so.

I've argued many times that players of all stripes just like their toons to develop. Scenarios (even heroic ones) appear much too random in reward for me, and challenge modes don't develop characters in any way. Heroic five-mans are too easy and the gear is rubbish, so...

Maybe Blizzard have badly underestimated just how important dungeons are to players. And maybe, just maybe, challenge mode difficulty (as in, Burning Crusade) with proper rewards would have been a huge hit for those who want to develop their toons, but don't care much for raiding.

Guesswork, of course. I still think it's an interesting thought (and a bit of a tangent from what melodramocracy was saying).

Wonderful thinking - could it be that the amazing time everyone remembers from TBC was because 5 mans were the endgame (for 98% of the playerbase)?

To be fair challenge modes do recreate the feeling to a large degree, the issue with CM's though is getting people to do them when everyone has 150 dailies to get through first.

[Deleted]

What is with this constant attitude that the playerbase is "crying out" for nerfs? Blizzard will and always has nerfed content based on their server side progression statistics. What people do or do not bitch about on the forums is irrelevant.

It's all pretty stupid in any case. Unless you're a member of Method or Paragon or something and killed all the HM bosses in the first few weeks, you've geared up significantly beyond where they were so the content effectively nerfs itself. The vast, vast majority of raiders kill bosses that are "nerfed" in that sense. If you kill a boss a month after the world first guilds, what you accomplished is not the same as what they accomplished.

So just shut up about nerfs, if you're a world first guild they don't affect you, and if you aren't then you're clearing easier content anyway.

Not really sure what you're trying to say here, you say that I dont have a say if I dont kill a boss a month after the world first guilds? Well I cleared all bosses in ToT before any nerfs where done so there goes that "argument" of yours or whatever that was.

Im not in a world-first guild by any means but that doesnt mean I dont have a say in this shitstorm coming from people that dont want to improve their game and kill bosses like Injin and Zellviren and others in this thread, but cries for the developers to nerf the content so they can LFR their way through the raid instead.

So no, Im not gonna "shut up about nerfs" because I find it against the common sense.

Oh and I voted for the "Easy" difficulty, name it Easy-mode and make it drop pink and gay (happy gay) transmog-gear with no ilvl.

[RickJamesLich]

Fun occurs at the point between frustration and success.

LFR is too easy.

Normals are too hard.

No fun.

Understand?[COLOR="red"]

Then tier 14 would be perfect, understand? Not to mention they have a lot of other content, as has already been established.

[Deleted]

Then tier 14 would be perfect, understand? Not to mention they have a lot of other content, as has already been established.

The T14 they are already sick of the sight of?

The one where they already gave up either at SG, Elegon or if they were really committed, Garalon?

The T14 that hasn't gotten any easier mechanics wise?

The T14 that isn't as good as LFR ToT for character progression?

That t14?

Oh, and what other content can you do in a group socially?

[Deleted]

What about those who don't have the skills to clear a new easy mode? Should we just create another one then? Dumb it down even futher so even my mother can do them while cooking? It is fine as it is. If you can't progress trough normal modes you should look around for another game.

[Deleted]

What about those who don't have the skills to clear a new easy mode? Should we just create another one then? Dumb it down even futher so even my mother can do them while cooking? It is fine as it is. If you can't progress trough normal modes you should look around for another game.

Heres a suggestion. been made before, will bemade again.

Why not tune a normal mode until the average (i.e. normal) group can get through it? Currently they are tuned so that only 25% of groups who kill the first boss get to the end before the tier is over. it's very easy to detune until that figure is where it should be for the name normal to fit - 50% of groups clear it.

[RickJamesLich]

The T14 they are already sick of the sight of?

The one where they already gave up either at SG, Elegon or if they were really committed, Garalon?

The T14 that hasn't gotten any easier mechanics wise?

The T14 that isn't as good as LFR ToT for character progression?

That t14?

Oh, and what other content can you do in a group socially?

Yes, the tier 14 that is fresh since they are bored with tier 15.

The tier 14 where they out gear elegon and Garalon.

The tier 14 that is outgeared.

The tier 14 that doesn't give the best epics, but still gives them character progression.

Yes, that tier 14.

As for a group socially, tier 14, challenge mode (have to be grouped for this), heroic scenarios (ditto here, have to be grouped)... and you can group up for barrens epics. To be frank, if tier 14 is amazingly hard with LFR epics from ToT, I don't think that's blizz's fault anymore. I think we got the right answer for this poll finally.

[Deleted]

Yes, the tier 14 that is fresh since they are bored with tier 15.

You can't imagien why people would rather avoid stuff they wiped on endlessly?

The tier 14 where they out gear elegon and Garalon.

Gear doesn't matter, there are still too many mechanics. You haven't understood why people are struggling, really, have you?

The tier 14 that is outgeared.

The issue isn't gearing. it's mechanics.

The tier 14 that doesn't give the best epics, but still gives them character progression.

Compared to what? Spamming HC scenarios? Nope.

Yes, that tier 14.

As for a group socially, tier 14, challenge mode (have to be grouped for this), heroic scenarios (ditto here, have to be grouped)... and you can group up for barrens epics. To be frank, if tier 14 is amazingly hard with LFR epics from ToT, I don't think that's blizz's fault anymore. I think we got the right answer for this poll finally.

You haven't got it, have you? The raids have too much going on. That doesn't get fixed by gear alone except at the chronically overgearing stage.

Only thing you've been right about so far is the HC scenarios (the ones which make t14 irrelevent for toon progression.)

[HeedmySpeed]

You can't imagien why people would rather avoid stuff they wiped on endlessly?

Shouldn't gear help them overcome them?

Gear doesn't matter, there are still too many mechanics. You haven't understood why people are struggling, really, have you?

the mechanics are a lot easier to deal with when you don't have to worry about DPS or Healing as much as when it's current. Seriously, for FUCK sake, is it hard to move your directional keys to move out of stuff? We're not talking about downsyndrome afflicted patients, we're talking about average people.

Compared to what? Spamming HC scenarios? Nope.

You're chances at loot are greater and you see "new" content. Don't forget that just killing bosses you haven't been able to before is considered progression.

You haven't got it, have you? The raids have too much going on. That doesn't get fixed by gear alone except at the chronically overgearing stage.

Yes, we understand the point that HC's don't just GIVE you loot like LFR. That's why it's acceptable. It's a better learning environment when you outgear it because you still die you just worry about numbers less which makes things even more convoluted.

[Deleted]

Shouldn't gear help them overcome them?

Unless it's a LOT of gearing, not really.

the mechanics are a lot easier to deal with when you don't have to worry about DPS or Healing as much as when it's current. Seriously, for FUCK sake, is it hard to move your directional keys to move out of stuff? We're not talking about downsyndrome afflicted patients, we're talking about average people.

This is the thing, you see. Because we are talking about a limit on working memory, performing actions on your toon while moving is either so easy you don't even notice or a permanent challenge that will never be overcome.

You're chances at loot are greater and you see "new" content. Don't forget that just killing bosses you haven't been able to before is considered progression.

They will you mean, I cleared t14 just fine and Tot I am loving. Advocacy isn't personality, as someone else said.

Progression for most players simply = toon power. They flow towards it like water flows downhill.

Yes, we understand the point that HC's don't just GIVE you loot like LFR. That's why it's acceptable. It's a better learning environment when you outgear it because you still die you just worry about numbers less which makes things even more convoluted.

the HC scenarios are more doable because theres a lot less going on. I love them, personally, they feel great to play, rather like those bits in the old TBC 5 mans when the tank went down and whoever was left would cobble together a victory anyway by kiting etc

[Deleted]

Heres a suggestion. been made before, will bemade again.

Why not tune a normal mode until the average (i.e. normal) group can get through it? Currently they are tuned so that only 25% of groups who kill the first boss get to the end before the tier is over. it's very easy to detune until that figure is where it should be for the name normal to fit - 50% of groups clear it.

Why should people be able to clear the content faster and faster for each patch? If they don't have the skills let them wait for nerfs incoming with a patch. If you ain't good enough work on it. Like IRL.

[Deleted]

Why should people be able to clear the content faster and faster for each patch?

Why shouldn't they?

If they don't have the skills let them wait for nerfs incoming with a patch. If you ain't good enough work on it. Like IRL.

RL doesn't work that way, for a start, and wow is not a morality play either.

People pay for fun. Why deny them it?

[Deleted]

If you complain about too much going on in raids, maybe you should focus on other stuff in-game instead of trying to ruin that gameportion for others calling for nerfs to the left and right.

People play for fun, yeah there are tons of fun stuff to do in-game if you're too bad to raid.

I think this Injin guy is a troll with way too much time on his hands.

Infacted; Don't call other people trolls. (Sonnillon)

[Deleted]

If you complain about too much going on in raids, maybe you should focus on other stuff in-game instead of trying to ruin that gameportion for others calling for nerfs to the left and right.

I don't complain, I enjoy it (myself) I just know for a fact that loads of others can't keep up.

People play for fun, yeah there are tons of fun stuff to do in-game if you're too bad to raid.

Some of the people who are now "too bad" to raid used to raid juist fine.

I think this Injin guy is a troll with way too much time on his hands.

I am indeed a troll (darkspear) and I do have too much time on my hands (which is why i can play wow).

I think you want this to be about me because you can't answer any of the points.

[isadorr]

Why shouldn't they?


RL doesn't work that way, for a start, and wow is not a morality play either.

People pay for fun. Why deny them it?

How long will it take you to realize where Blizzard has always placed its priority? If they nerf content then people will just stay the same, mentally slow and bad. Next tier if not easy enough you will come here again and cry because you would rather post 1900 times then get better. Nerfing isnt the answer, people should stop being lazy and whiny.

[Deleted]

Why shouldn't they?

People pay for fun. Why deny them it?

Because clearing LFR gives you no satisfaction at all. Why would you pass that to normal aswell?