The future of Hunter PvE

[thunderdragon2]

if thats the case glurp why are u defending it by remaining silent and puting up with it?

deterence and disengage will be next

[ghotihook]

Simply put, having an interrupt didn't make Hunters so losing it won't break Hunters.

Since comprehension is not your forte I will make it more clear. Losing silencing shot will not make or break hunters, but it is a utility that is quite useful. I was comparing it with deterrence and disengage. Are you saying you would have no problems losing both of those abilities?

[Glurp]

Since comprehension is not your forte I will make it more clear. Losing silencing shot will not make or break hunters, but it is a utility that is quite useful. I was comparing it with deterrence and disengage. Are you saying you would have no problems losing both of those abilities?

They are utiltiy abilities but in different ways. One is an interrupt, one is a defensive CD and one is a movement ability. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[cashzilla]

They are utiltiy abilities but in different ways. One is an interrupt, one is a defensive CD and one is a movement ability. You're comparing apples and oranges.

they're all UTILITIES. he asked you how you would feel about losing those UTILITIES, he's not comparing them. fuck you're dense

[Astheria]

let's not forget to keep in mind that this is all still very early PTR, and some things are bound to change! but...


I can't help but feel we're just increasingly becoming more and more useless to a raid comp. Not only were we lacking before (currently i suppose), but now we're losing our interrupt.

do you think this could be their first few steps in making MM a more attractive spec for raiding?

it would be nice to have all 3 be viable options, actually putting the decision into our hands as to what spec is appropriate for the fight we're facing, rather than only seeing BM hunters running around.

how do you guys feel about it?

I feel the exact same way. While hunters bring a lot to 10 man raids, our usefulness is lacking in 25mans. The mid pack dps that can easily be topped by mages locks chickens and spriests on most fights this tier hurts not to mention our lack of a raid cool down. I would think as a "pure dps" class we would either have some kind of cool down to help dps of the raid or healing (bubble trap pls?) or at the very least be towards the top of the meters. At least then we can feel "useful" to 25mans. The only time I am feeling useful right now is when I can padd (heroic tortos) help with mds/pet tanking, and the occasional "all of our mages and shamans have disappeared, bring out that lust pet". I would love to bring something useful on a more consistent basis to our 25man raid group. It just sucks that gc says things like " they are still well represented" as a reason for why we don't need to actually be fixed and seriously looked at for pve.

[jax]

and raids still will want hunters, because of their unique niche that most classes don't have, and that's their mobility as a ranged. enough said for that.

I loled irl...

So raids want a subpar dps because we can jump up and down all fight while doing bottom 3rd dps on 11/13 fights?

/boggle

they're all UTILITIES. he asked you how you would feel about losing those UTILITIES, he's not comparing them. fuck you're dense

Just stop, hes being purposely obtuse for some reason and he isnt worth the time.

[Deleted]

That isn't really the same. People in this thread are complaining about the future of Hunter PvE because we are losing an interrupt. It's not the end of the world. Genetic Fallacy generally takes things out of context to justify a point. I didn't take anything out of context. People are saying Hunters will be worthless without an interrupt, yet they were never taken because they had an interrupt.

If you want to talk about the other glaring issues Hunters have then that's a different topic, not what we are talking about here.

I kinda have to agree with this. I play a Hunter as my alt for casual PvP and PvE, while I'm the main tank and officer of a 10 man 11/13 Heroic guild.

And from an officers perspective thinking about Hunters in our roster, their lack of an interrupt would never be the sole reason for not bringing one. Granted that on 10 man where you can't afford having more than 2 melee and pref only 1, having that extra interrupt on fights like Protectors, Horridon and even Council is nice. But in the long run, the interrupt or lack of it, should never be the reason not to want a Hunter.

Generally I actually prefer running with a Hunter in our roster. They bring some good AoE (Horridon, Tortos and Primordius), MD is really nice (Horridon and Tortos) but I honestly feel like losing Binding Shot was worse, when thinking of the current Tier (Megaera adds and the lack of stuns).

I do enjoy playing my Hunter but I agree, that the class need some re-designing. It feels like they haven't been properly updated compared to a lot of other classes and that's a shame with a class that's generally always been fairly popular (probably due to the low skill cap at the casual level).

I've never liked the idea, that in order to make more players play a certain spec, Blizz nerfs the other specs to the ground or make one spec completely FotM. But atm I believe, that Hunters are mostly suffering due to PvP issues and that's a shame.

[Adaon]

For those who can't think further back past this expansion, you know, when only MM had Silencing Shot, Ghostcrawler had a tweet (possibly posted elsewhere in this forum) that should help you inch back from the roof ledge.

Greg Street @Ghostcrawler
@emped We *might* add a glyph that converts Scatter into a long-range interrupt. TBD.


This would be an even longer cooldown than Silencing Shot is now, but not that much. Maybe the glyph would lower the cooldown as well. Also unclear is if this means that MM would have 2 interrupts (I suppose so). Interesting PvP implications, as you'd have to give up Scatter-Trap as a technique to get it.

[hareu]

I loled irl...

So raids want a subpar dps because we can jump up and down all fight while doing bottom 3rd dps on 11/13 fights?

/boggle



Just stop, hes being purposely obtuse for some reason and he isnt worth the time.

so they can do all the shit other classes lose dps while doing from moving. and we aren't even sub par anymore, if you are then you should quit.

also it might not be noticeable in 25 man, but having a hunter in a 10 man is nice.

[khalamo]

From 10man raid leader point of view, hunters are still good option.

- Agi mails. The other class that uses them is enh shaman who is melee (wow doesnt like melee)
- Misdirection. I think a lot of guilds use hunter MD to progress on Tortos
- Movement. You should give a hunter most of the fight mechanics to deal with since they move so fast and can still dps.
- Universal buffer. In 10man when someone is skipping the raid you can find replacement easier since the hunter can easily cover missing buff.

All of the above points are not valid for 25m (maybe the MD one is still an option).

When guilds are progressing they want best players with best classes. Right now hunters are only running in 25mans because they are good players. They are not top dps, they have no great utility.

Regarding the issue with interrupt. As per my list above this is no a reason why they have spot in 10m (interrupt in 25m...lol). If I could list any skill that was actually useful on some fights, then I would say Bind Shot (Council/Tortos/Megaera/Lei Shen). Why was noone complaining when it was taken?

[Okacz]

Blizzard needs to decide: either the classes ae similiar - every dps has a cc, interrupt, raid buffs and raid cooldowns, or there are class specifics, rewarding you for choosing a mixed team. Anything in between is a design flaw, where there always be the "worse" class.

Hunters either need an interrupt, or the raid encounters shouldn't be like Horridon or Council. Feeling helpless while doing your best is not the best thing. I kinda opt for interrupt/silence being a thing thats - like stun/disarm - avaiable only for a few certain classes.

[ritchie37]

I am new here and not sure if I am reading this right where we are not pulling numbers....So I will say this...I personally hold 160 - 180k in a raid and use my interrupts often, there's another hnter n my guild that holds 20k more than I and he also interrupts often...no shaman in our guild or too many I've seen so far can hold a full fight at those numbers...So I wanna say we are completetly useful and screwing with us every ppatch is quite aggravating

[Libertarian]

As of right now, there is ZERO reason to bring more than 1 per raid.

This part seems very true to me. I don't see why you would ever bring more than one hunter, and especially when you can just bring a mage who with minimal effort does more damage than a hunter in all 3 specs.

[cashzilla]

For those who can't think further back past this expansion, you know, when only MM had Silencing Shot...

very true, but MM hunters were running the show back then. now it's not even an option if you want to compete

[Sqeen]

The best solution for all the classes out there would be two seperate spellbooks for PvE and PvP. It would solve so much problems and many of these discussions wouldn't be needed at all.

I am not sure how big of an impact it will be for PvP to remove silencing shot from 2/3 specs since you can still choose intimitation to interrupt a healer for a few seconds but it will have (at least for me) a rather big one in PvE. Yeah, there are some classes which got way better interrupt mechanics then we have but in the end they also have to use them. Countless times I have seen casts go through because everyone in your group or raid was just too lazy to switch or plain interrupt it (f.e. Horridon LFR dinomancer, mass ress in scarlet monastery, ...).

But SS isn't the real issue. Nerfing our dps output when we are already in a bad spot dps wise is one. Although the stampede nerf was countered by minor buffs we still need some more to get at least closer to other classes. One possibility would be adding a passive spell which adds a debuff to PvE mobs/bosses only which increases our dps by a specific amount.


edit: aye and claiming that SS was exclusive for MM all the way up to MoP. That's true but we also had a different talent tree setup, other spells and MM was the only real PvE spec back then. That's why blizzard introduced the new talent system, to give the players a choice to raid or PvP with the spec they prefer and/or easily switch between PvP/PvE by just switching some talents. This may be not that important for pure dps classes since they always had a free talent set free for PvP but gave hybrids a chance to get into pvp too without dropping either their healing/tank/dps spec for some PvP fun.

[Luxeley]

BM came out of the gate in 5.0 off the charts OP. No one can deny that with a straight face. Since then, they've been nerfed into the ground and more nerfs appear to be coming soon. What is sad and more appropriately stated "fucking pathetic" is that Stampede gets nerfed twice, Intimidation - essentially gone, Cds on pet special abilities more than doubled, Lynx Rush burst turned into a bust, Rapid basically useless, Blink strike rendered useless and the biggest whammy of them all pet immunity to CC gone. And guess what, even though it isn't official, I am 100% certain Blizzard will take beastial wrath off the readiness reset. When they do this, they will essentially turn BM into arcane and combat - thoroughly useless for PVP.

Let the truth be told, this has been the problem the whole time. If you recall, PVP use trinkets used to be on a two min CD. When Blizzard put them on a 1 min CD, they gave BM Hunters insane burst by using their trinket with BW once every min. And if you're an engineer like my Bm hunter, you're stacking 3 cds every minute. Here's the problem, Blizzard took away or nerfed 6 or 7 things from BM and they will take away the one thing keeping the spec viable. When they do this - the Spec will DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD! You can take away some of the other things mentioned and the BW reset, but do both and it's over for BM.

[Kalcheus]

Am I the only person that uses Wyvern Sting as an interrupt? Granted the CD is much longer, but when you're talking about something like the Venom Priests, you only need one interrupt before they're dead.

Also, Tranq Shot as a ranged Dispel is still a nice trick to have.

As for 25-man, Hunters can bring Tallstriders! Of course, that's only one pet so you still would only need one Hunter ... on fights where there is more than one target ... but still! Tallstriders ftw!

[jax]

so they can do all the shit other classes lose dps while doing from moving.

Such as?
Here's a thought, no one cares what we can do while moving when we cant out dps fulling 3/4 of a raid that cant move and dps... When a class can do the mechanics we do but has to stop dpsing and yet still out dps's us... your point is completely invalid, and 3/4 of the specs can do exactly that in progression raiding.

and we aren't even sub par anymore, if you are then you should quit.

I'm sorry but your statement is completely false where I raid, (progression 25 mans) We are absolutely sub par.
True if your doing heroic raiding and are a average player or 50% of what you should be doing then we are doing middle of the pack dps... when you step up to where the people with skill play and that are surrounded by skill and you will see yourself plummet.

Your advice is because I am bottom 3rd dps in my guild yet constantly rank in the top 200 on WoL I am bad and should quit?
Sorry, but when you can rank in your class/spec but cant hit the top 10 in your raid... its clearly NOT the player, its the class.

also it might not be noticeable in 25 man, but having a hunter in a 10 man is nice.

I dont think anyone is arguing that point, but in the 10 man we run, we do not take a hunter unless its all we have on.

This part seems very true to me. I don't see why you would ever bring more than one hunter, and especially when you can just bring a mage who with minimal effort does more damage than a hunter in all 3 specs.

Exactly...
Or 2 to 4 locks to make certain fights pathetically easy.

[Sqeen]

although you can argue that hunters when min-maxing in heroic guilds should bring a pet which benefits the raid the most I have to say that blizzard gave all 3 specializations to every pet for a reason so you can pick the pet of your personal preference. So no, I will not use an ugly moth just to be able to interrupt a spell cast and the tallstriders unique raid ability isn't that strong either to specifically bring a hunter at the current state and as you stated that would be still only one spot. But yeah, tallstriders ftw!

[Glurp]

although you can argue that hunters when min-maxing in heroic guilds should bring a pet which benefits the raid the most I have to say that blizzard gave all 3 specializations to every pet for a reason so you can pick the pet of your personal preference. So no, I will not use an ugly moth just to be able to interrupt a spell cast and the tallstriders unique raid ability isn't that strong either to specifically bring a hunter at the current state and as you stated that would be still only one spot. But yeah, tallstriders ftw!

I take my Monkey with a hat because..... IT'S A MONKEY WITH A HAT. On odd occasions I'll use a Core Hound for Herosim or a Quillen for a Brez.