Dragon Ball Z Fan Thread!

[derpkitteh]

i'm pretty sure i've read that bills is the weakest of these universal gods. also, he is apparently weaker than whis "His power surpasses that of all the main Dragon Ball Z villains: Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu.[11] Going further, V-Jump notes that Bills is without a doubt the strongest being in the history of Z.[5] However, this is disproven in the film when Bills reveals that his martial arts master, Whis, is stronger than him." it's from the wiki, but that's the best i can pull and it's info is from the movie.

[Skorpionss]

Finally got watch Battle of the gods so I can come here again and discuss DBZ! Managed to stay spoiler free until I saw it too so it was just that much better.

I really enjoyed it, and was well worth the wait. The subs in some points were obviously way off, but it was good enough to get a decent idea of what was going on. Can't wait for the english dub. The movie was also just a giant tease for obviously more to come. It introduced us to so many new concepts in the DBZ universe, there's no way they aren't going to do more with it or they wouldn't of introduced it at all. I loved when they were trying to form the SSG and were tossing there energy around to eachother. Looked so cool.



Nappa and Vegeta didn't have the ability to power up at that time, that was the one advantage the Earthlings had on them. Nappa and Vegeta were always at they're max power level. Vegeta learned the ability to hide it after the battle. I don't think any enemy has that ability until they get to Zarbon. That's why I think the scouter's explode too. They are not designed to read power levels in flux because it's a rare ability so they overload.

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Also maybe someone can help me out with this one. So any "god" form does not use ki? As in the movie Bill states that ones kii(energy) level has no effect on how strong one is in god mode. Bills talks about kii or energy like it's some other noob way to fight or something. Bills is even surprised and impressed when Goku manages to convert the god mode energy into Kii and use it in SSJ form to keep up with him. Or at least that's how I understood it with the subs. Then there's also the question of if Bill doesn't use Kii, then what the hell is he and the god modes running on? Or is Kii just one form of energy in the DBZ universe? I thought kii was the term for energy.

Actually in the subbed version I think vegeta says he can increase his power too from 14k regular to like 21k, while goku had somewhere around 24k with Kaiox4 I think...

[GennGreymane]

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...mu-d69dow4.jpg

just some fantastic art I found

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As much as i personally dislike Honor trip, they have cool villain concepts. Like King Snake.

[Rendia]

just some fantastic art I found

That is an amazing pic of 16! Imagine if DBZ was redone with that level of detail as CGI... Would be fantastic.

[Deleted]

he is apparently weaker than whis "His power surpasses that of all the main Dragon Ball Z villains: Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu.

I think Whiz simply isn't included on that list because he's not a villain, isn't he the 7th universe God of Creation anyway? I think he's a good guy.

[derpkitteh]

I think Whiz simply isn't included on that list because he's not a villain, isn't he the 7th universe God of Creation anyway? I think he's a good guy.

later in the quote it says bills himself admits he is weaker than whis. buu, cell, and least of all frieza aren't even a blip on the radar at this point in the show lol.

[Pendulous]

later in the quote it says bills himself admits he is weaker than whis. buu, cell, and least of all frieza aren't even a blip on the radar at this point in the show lol.

Which is weird enough, because Goku had issues with Cell and Frieza in GT.

[Immitis]

Which is weird enough, because Goku had issues with Cell and Frieza in GT.

battle of gods continues the mangas storyline, not the animes.

[Pendulous]

battle of gods continues the mangas storyline, not the animes.

Yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that Cell and Frieza were absolutely nothing later on. And in GT they would have been even more powerful. Goku having problems with them was really weird. The only thing being that they couldn't die. But he still should have been able to handle them easily.

[derpkitteh]

dbgt had a lot of odd things, like goku being cut by glass among several other things. i liked the show because of ss4, and it continued my beloved dbz, but it was a bit of a mess compared to the original.a lot of people don't even consider it canon because it's not manga, but i don't even give a shit about manga. all about the anime for me xD

i guess you could say frieza and cell trained during their time in hell and were stronger. i know gohan one shot frieza at one point when he and every other villian escapes hell, i think that's during the janemba movie though.

[Turin]

Yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that Cell and Frieza were absolutely nothing later on. And in GT they would have been even more powerful. Goku having problems with them was really weird. The only thing being that they couldn't die. But he still should have been able to handle them easily.

Goku didn't really have much problems with Cell and Frieza though. Iirc he was fighting in base form most of the time and even then he was just toying around with them. He didn't really take the fight seriously. The only issue he had was when Cell and Frieza used some hell thingy against him.
With that said though, at that point Goku should really have been strong enough to defeat them using only his tongue in Mercenary Tao style.

[Deleted]

Dragon Ball was fucking awesome, with the exception of the Fortuneteller Baba saga, which - Krillin's "master plan" during Yamcha's bout with the Invisible Man excluded - was crappy and filler-ish.
The Tenshinhan saga is my favourite, with a close runner-up in the form of the Piccolo Jr saga.
Kid Krillin was such a badass troll, loved him.
Also, Launch was, still is, and forever will be the best female protagonist of the franchise (such a shame she wasn't utilized in DBZ).
Mai was, still is, and forever will be the best female antagonist of the franchise (it's more understandable why she didn't show up in DBZ though, admittedly).

Dragon Ball Z from beginning to the end of the Frieza saga was nothing but sheer gold-dust. Frieza was the ultimate antagonist of the series, BY FAR. He was the peak.
The Namek saga was also the peak of the entire franchise imo - I mean, it was Dragon Ball: In Space!! (for the first time ofc, before DBGT overused the theme).
Plus, it had the most interesting lore going (the Namekians, their planet, the origin of the Dragon Balls, the backstory of Piccolo and Kame fully explained etc).
It also focused mainly on Krillin and Gohan's struggles, which was a nice change of pace, their adventures somewhat recalling the bond of Krillin and Goku's childhood friendship (plus Krillin is awesome, and a more complicated character than Goku).
Also, Vegeta was at his most interesting, still being very much morally-aligned with the villainous characters, but also acting on his own accord, and as the perfect antihero at key-points aswell.
The plot was the most exciting because it weaved and changed course so much, as balances in power effected each side's tactics. This made it the most unpredictable (in balance with still being well-written) out of any of the sagas, overall.
The saga generally felt the most epic, and felt the most conclusive upon its closure.
I still feel like (as much as I love some of the material that came after) that the best point for the series to have ended once and for all would have been here, with Goku dying on the planet as a legend, and the Namekian Dragon Balls being lost forever with Guru's death (his resurrection made little sense, tbh) and thus, also leaving Chiatzu & Krillin dead forever too; we could have had a bittersweet scene with the 2 original best friends in heaven re-uniting, and fading into the mists of time as heroes, to spend the rest of their days as ascended-warriors, forever keeping King Kai company (and Krillin could have finally received some training from the God himself). Tenshinhan and Chiatzu could have done their own thing as always (with Tenshinhan staying dead ofc for Chiatzu's sake), and gone their separate way. It could have ended with a comical scene, with Krillin still trying to fruitlessly catch up to Goku's power, then juxtaposed this with a cutaway scene on Earth, with an emotional but brave Gohan looking to the heavens with determination, seeking to continue his father's legacy by getting as strong as he could (with ofc Piccolo watching over him, as always). Also, Yamcha could've been resurrected, and returned to Bulma, and they could've lived happily ever after, for a change, lol. Vegeta should have stayed dead aswell, his death-scene was so important - he retained his Saiya-jin pride till the end, but also revealed his true feelings (at the time) once and for all, and he also relinquished his goal of defeating Frieza and avenging their race to Goku, finally admitting that Goku was the stronger (and had the most potential). It was very fitting - yes, it was tragic, but it very much suited his characterization up to this point in the story. It just felt right.

The Cell saga however, whilst awesome, was the starting point of the story's loss of focus (for example, the centre-point of the plot not being about the actual Dragon Balls anymore).
It started off extremely strong, in fact (although the multiple Super Saiya-jin aspect was obv ridiculous), with the introduction of Mirai Trunks' character (him being one of my all time favs of the series), and continued with the nice twist, in the form of Super Saiya-jin Vegeta taking over the ill Goku's fight, and winning it (one of the most badass appearances/fights in the entire series), then once more continued with the awesome with Piccolo taking it to Dr Gero, and the reveal of the true enemies (including 16's surprise activation).
Then, it upped the ante again with Cell's introduction (this form of Cell was a stroke of genius imo - he was the perfect horror movie-esque villain that the show needed). Again, like with the Namek storyline, the best part of this saga was the changes in power balance, and the constant second-guessing of the audience as to how things were going to transpire next, with awesome fights such as Piccolo vs #17, cool twists such as #16's power-level and character/motivations when he stepped up to fight, etc.
Although, imo the saga had peaked at this point, it still very much held up a solid standard during the Semi-perfect Cell arc, with some cool surprise moments like Tenshinhan's heroic moment, for example. Leading into Cell's perfect form, there was the cool fights with Vegeta and Trunks that played out interestingly enough.
However, it pretty much fell apart story-wise after this imo, with the plot-abortion that was the Cell games, and other unsavoury elements such as Mr Satan's horrible early persona and inclusion, his henchman and that bloody irritating commentator!
I will say though that the fight between Goku and Cell was freaking awesome - one of the best, for sure. Also, the "Gohan is our best hope" twist was nicely introduced, and #16's sacrifice was well executed. Gohan's fight though was mostly forgettable, with the inevitable power-up, and effortless beating he dished out to Cell being mostly a rehash of Goku's Super Saiya-jin scene on Namek. It was also lame, and frustrating how Gohan disappointed with his poor judgement, letting down his father, and how he still depended upon him even after he died. Just made it hard to support the guy (I was sort of rooting for Cell at this point, lol!) Also, Cell's resurrection and power-up made no fucking sense what-so-ever and his adoption of the instant-transmission technique was even more contrived. It was nice how Vegeta fought for Trunks' honour though, and his subsequent redemption by amending his brash action in this regard, by aiding Gohan right at the end.

As for the Buu saga, well, I rate it slightly higher than the Cell saga overall (for the negative points mentioned above), but admittedly, it's high points didn't peak as great as the Android arc's did. The plot is incredibly convoluted in this one, for sure - but one of the elements that I was pleasantly surprised to see return was the humour of Dragon Ball. It made for a nice change of pace, and thus you didn't take the up-scaling of ridiculousness as seriously, as a result.
I also enjoyed the introduction of the kids' Goten and Trunks into the series, as they added some much needed camaraderie to the series again, and were often times the most suited as the focus of the saga's jokes. In terms of other characterization, I also came to actually like Gohan more as an adult, and Mr Satan's personality was given much more depth, and thus was very much redeemed, as well. Buu (well, fat Buu) was interesting too, as through his interactions with Mr Satan, we saw there was much more to him then meets the eye. Vegeta also came full-circle here and ended his developmental arc in the second best way it could (only behind permanently dying on Namek), by the end of the plot.
Admittedly, it was pretty lame how Krillin, and even Piccolo were relegated to nearly completely useless territory. Piccolo was well-suited to playing the comically frustrated teacher though.
I also have to say, the part of the Evil Buu arc where he absorbs everyone was flat-out lame - I hated that part: it's such an OP ability! Plus it makes the fights' conclusions all but predictable. The shit with Vegetto splitting up again was terri-bad as well.
The cliche-turned-on-its-head conclusion was nice though, with Goku's Super Saiya-jin 3 form being unsustainable, and the people of earth lending a hand for a change. It was also nice how Vegeta came up with the master plan (instead of Goku, as is usually the case), and Mr Satan's input really wrapped up his character development nicely, too.

Moving on to DB:GT ... and what can I say ... other then I wish it had never happened, it was that crap - all in-universe logic and consistency was abandoned and the characterisation was at best stale, at worst, irritating. The antagonists were nothing short of obnoxious, the choreography of the fights was utter trash and the animation was poor. There were no interesting personal developments or any sense of progression what-so-ever for any of the protagonists, nor any memorable bonds and/or relationships to speak of. Large quantities of the material were directly lifted from previous parts in the series .... It would be easier (and quicker) to sit here and try to list the good points of the series ... honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one ... really ...
Anyhoo, I'm glad it's not considered canon now, but it's a shame (more-so on a personal level) that the canonical continuation of the storyline is only available in Dragon Ball Online, as us westerners can't even play that game

That's my overall 2 cents on the series anyhow.

PS. As a side-note, some of the games are fucking awesome, with my favs being Super Saiya Densetsu, Super Dragon Ball Z, & Hyper Dimension.

TL;DR - sorry, but what I said can't really be condensed so ... eh ...

[Turin]

Well, you definitely put time and effort in it ^^
First of all, I must say I agree with most of what you said.

The only thing I must disagree with about dragonball is the baba saga. To me it felt like a nice change of pace, going from a battle against an army to something more peaceful. The fact that Goku could meet his grandfather again was great. It showed us, for the first time, that Goku, while incredibly powerful and always capable of pushing on, can also have those moments that he just needs to let his emotions out. We often see Goku go into a rage, but it is rare to see him in pure overwelming happiness.

As for the Namek saga, this was the peak for me aswell. Everything about Frieza was awesome at that point. Unlike later on, we have a main antagonist with an army at his back. That was the most appealing to me. After Namek, we always had just 1 overpowered enemy.
It was also great that there was a real dragonball hunt. Unlike before, where they gathered the dragonballs one by one, they actually kept going back and forth. While Frieza couldn't lose at the time in battle, due to the nature of the search, he was never a definite victor either.

However, I disagree that it should have ended there. It's true that it was a good place to end, but the continuation was incredibly well done, IMO. Mainly Vegeta. His character development is one of the best. In many manga/anime, a villain that turns good, simply has a sudden change of heart. This was not the case with Vegeta and that's why it was so awesome.
His whole change was a process that lasted over 10 years and is now still continuing.
First, he came from being a full blown evil being that destroyed whatever came in his path. The first change didn't actually come from his own will, but came of necessity. Due to circumstances, he was forced to side with the humans. But even then it wasn't like he was a good guy. Then, during the whole Cell mess, we see Vegeta care about someone other than himself for the very first time. During the whole saga, he was still acting as his bastard self, but when it truly came down to it, it was shown that he cared.
And then lastly, during the Buu saga. A temporary return to his evil self, but it appears that even then, he is still in control of himself. It is shown that he cares about more than just fighting and himself. He now has a family after all. But the most amazing moment was Vegeta accepting that Goku had more talent. And for the very first time, he truly cheered for Goku.

It is rare that an evil villain has a believable path to becoming a good guy, but Vegeta's story definitely managed it. While I still watch dragonball for Goku, I don't want to see the series end, simply because of Vegeta and his continuous progression. Even with the recent movie, we see that Vegeta is still changing.
God, I love that guy ^^

Oh and for GT, it had a great idea, but was simply not 'implemented' well. Having the dragonballs scattered around the universe, instead of just earth, was a good way to make the dragonball search relevant again.
I didn't care too much about the 17 story.
And then the whole evil dragonballs was once again a good idea, but again badly done.
In short, GT had great potential but ended up very lacking.

[GennGreymane]

Gt just used a lot of old plot points

as for Freeza, he was certainly the best villain. He is also the only villain to not be automatically owned by a super saiyan. He still managed to fight Goku and had the upper hand a few times in their fight after Goku went ss.

[Deleted]

Gt just used a lot of old plot points

as for Freeza, he was certainly the best villain. He is also the only villain to not be automatically owned by a super saiyan. He still managed to fight Goku and had the upper hand a few times in their fight after Goku went ss.

Cell beat Goku in SS form. Cell also didn't get automatically beaten by SS2 Gohan either. And as for Buu, he doesn't even take a serious beating from any kind of SS with the exception of Vegito.

And Vegito is just insanely retarded overpowered, heck just try to imagine Vegito SSG... I'm pretty sure all the different Gods of Destruction would give up. It's just not fair. Vegito vs a Broly who has had the time to build up power would be interesting though. But I don't think the universe would survive that, all creation would be wiped out hehe.

Anyway, as for GT. There's just so much wrong with that series, one problem is that they scaled down the significance of power a lot. First you had villains destroying planets and even entire galaxies and now they're back to destroying a city as if it's a major feat. Then you have some goofs that just don't make sense, like Vegeta having a different hairstyle and a mustache, even though Saiyan's hair should stay the same. And apparently Bulla is older than Pan, even though we see young Pan at the end of DBZ but we don't see any Bulla. It's also very weird that random robots in space are stronger than Buu. And Trunks is reduced to a helpless retard basically. And the return of Frieza and Cell a second (or is it third?) time is also getting tiresome. The double Android 17 didn't make any sense either, and that saga lasted like 4 episodes If I recall correctly. Not to mention how Pan never achieves SS form even though she shows more love for fighting than Goten did. Heck, I think I can go on a lot longer but it would just become a wall of text. GT did have some good ideas, but the execution was just poorly.

[Zoma]

And apparently Bulla is older than Pan, even though we see young Pan at the end of DBZ but we don't see any Bulla. It's also very weird that random robots in space are stronger than Buu. And Trunks is reduced to a helpless retard basically.

I agree with most of what you said, but a few things to point out. Bulla/Bra was in Z. Cover from second-to-last manga chapter. She appeared a couple times in the final manga chapters, but no dialogue. Random robots in space being stronger than Buu is weird, but so was random robots on Earth being stronger than Frieza. As pointed out several times in this thread, Trunks sucked (compared to Future Trunks) because his childhood was much friendlier (aside from the part where he died, but hey, at least they still had Dragon Balls in this timeline).

[Deleted]

I agree with most of what you said, but a few things to point out. Bulla/Bra was in Z. Cover from second-to-last manga chapter. She appeared a couple times in the final manga chapters, but no dialogue. Random robots in space being stronger than Buu is weird, but so was random robots on Earth being stronger than Frieza. As pointed out several times in this thread, Trunks sucked (compared to Future Trunks) because his childhood was much friendlier (aside from the part where he died, but hey, at least they still had Dragon Balls in this timeline).

Wow, I didn't know she was in the manga. But if I were to guess, that page serves as the inspiration they took to create GT? For the most part the character designs are the same as in GT and yet this is Toriyama's work. Quite shocking actually.

And yes, Trunks in GT makes sense. I just don't like what he's become. And I don't have a problem with robots being stronger than Buu, but I just can't take them seriously. I guess it has to do with personality, attitude and character design instead of simply them being strong though.

Edit: Oh, and I have to add. GT also seems to be very dark and depressing compared to Z. Sure there were still jokes here and there, but the general theme was depressing imo. The Earth looks like a mess near the end, Piccolo getting stuck in hell, losing the Dragonballs forever, etc. At least DBZ ends with everyone living their lives in happines, GT seems almost like a post-apocalyptic world. It's almost as if Future Trunks has a brighter place to live in than the main timeline.

[derpkitteh]

Wow, I didn't know she was in the manga. But if I were to guess, that page serves as the inspiration they took to create GT? For the most part the character designs are the same as in GT and yet this is Toriyama's work. Quite shocking actually.

And yes, Trunks in GT makes sense. I just don't like what he's become. And I don't have a problem with robots being stronger than Buu, but I just can't take them seriously. I guess it has to do with personality, attitude and character design instead of simply them being strong though.

Edit: Oh, and I have to add. GT also seems to be very dark and depressing compared to Z. Sure there were still jokes here and there, but the general theme was depressing imo. The Earth looks like a mess near the end, Piccolo getting stuck in hell, losing the Dragonballs forever, etc. At least DBZ ends with everyone living their lives in happines, GT seems almost like a post-apocalyptic world. It's almost as if Future Trunks has a brighter place to live in than the main timeline.

i was gonna point out that the creator of dbz said pan didn't achieve super saiyan because he couldn't figure out how to actually draw a female super saiyan, and he invisioned her as a little girl growing up in a time of peace, so she had no reason to do it. now, i could understand that, but goten achieved super saiyan in a time of peace, didn't he? between the cell games and the start of the buu saga. i think he just couldn't get a design he actually liked, so he just made up something to write it off ;P

[Sal the Shieldhog]

i was gonna point out that the creator of dbz said pan didn't achieve super saiyan because he couldn't figure out how to actually draw a female super saiyan, and he invisioned her as a little girl growing up in a time of peace, so she had no reason to do it. now, i could understand that, but goten achieved super saiyan in a time of peace, didn't he? between the cell games and the start of the buu saga. i think he just couldn't get a design he actually liked, so he just made up something to write it off ;P

Yeah, but Goten and Trunks kind of... Screwed up Goku's whole "the Super Saiyan transformation is in response to a need, not a desire!" as we (along with Gohan) had shoved into our heads during the Android/Cell Saga. Goten and Trunks certainly never had a need (nor a desire, though I guess being just like Dad/big brother could count as one), though they managed to reach it.

I agree with the whole theory of Goten/Trunks having an easier time because Goku/Vegeta were already SSJs by the time of their conceptions, while GOhan did not. But the question is then changed to this; why does this not then extend to Bra and Pan? Vegeta was certainly a SSJ, even a SSJ2, by the time his daughter was born, and Gohan had gone far beyond it at that point.

So yeah, I think Toriyama just blew it off because he didn't know how to do it, and we end up with having only 2 SSJs, when the other 2 grew up in the same conditions.

As an aside: I can understand Bra not being a SSJ, given that she's nothing like Vegeta and doesn't train, but Pan could have been (should have been) so much more. Given Goten's and Trunk's similar theory, and the fact that Gohan was already a SSJ2, Pan should've been able to reach not just SSJ, but SSJ2, far easier than anyone, if we're going by the same theory. But that's just my opinion.

I don't think it'd be hard to make a female SSJ. There are plenty of fan-made concepts that look quite nicely, and there's even that female Saiyan in the video games. It shouldn't be hard. After all, most females have either long hair, or short hair, just make it similar to Gohan's first SSJ transformation ("OMG GOHAN WENT SSJ3 BEFORE SSJ2 EVEN EXISTED!"). Simply put, long haired females get the similar treatment, short haired ones get Gohan's "post haircut" look, or one similar to Vegeta or Goku's look.

I think it's a simple, easy fix, it doesn't have to be different from any other SSJ at all. In fact, most have mostly similar hairstyles, with just slight variations.

[Zoma]

I agree with the whole theory of Goten/Trunks having an easier time because Goku/Vegeta were already SSJs by the time of their conceptions, while GOhan did not.

Vegeta wasn't SSJ at the time of Trunks' conception, although he was close.

But the question is then changed to this; why does this not then extend to Bra and Pan? Vegeta was certainly a SSJ, even a SSJ2, by the time his daughter was born, and Gohan had gone far beyond it at that point.

So yeah, I think Toriyama just blew it off because he didn't know how to do it, and we end up with having only 2 SSJs, when the other 2 grew up in the same conditions.

As an aside: I can understand Bra not being a SSJ, given that she's nothing like Vegeta and doesn't train, but Pan could have been (should have been) so much more. Given Goten's and Trunk's similar theory, and the fact that Gohan was already a SSJ2, Pan should've been able to reach not just SSJ, but SSJ2, far easier than anyone, if we're going by the same theory. But that's just my opinion.

Pan is also only 1/4 Saiyan, which according to the Daizenshuu, isn't enough Saiyan blood to transform. Of course, GT contradicts this in the final scene of the final episode with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr.