No US 10 man heroic kills on garrosh?

[Raiju]

Games like WoW have such a negative rep here in Aus and the US in general which means its way harder to do things like get time off work. For example I read a while back an interview from Kruf where he essentially said his boss knew what he was doing for the next 3 weeks and was ok with it. Here you'd get laughed out so hard and get fired on the spot.

Another issue is connection issues. Here you get drop outs and spikes more often. When you combine that with a starting MS of about 200....one spike and you are most likely dead. Those wipes add up over time and waste the little time we have.

Another huge difference between Oceania and EU is time difference. To get the best of the best you are spread out across the country and usually to NZ as well. Setting up a raid time when you have time differences of 5hours across your raid group compared to maybe 2 hours in europe is huge.

Someone needs a geography lesson BADLY. 2 hours across EU? Not to mention here I would get equally laughed at for taking an extended amount of time off for a video game.

The MS has been better in EU (not all of it but in general) over the past couple years. A lot of countries see under 100 in most areas, I run about 120 usually. Can't say I ever caused a wipe below 200 MS though.

[Knyphyn]

Someone needs a geography lesson BADLY. 2 hours across EU? Not to mention here I would get equally laughed at for taking an extended amount of time off for a video game.

The MS has been better in EU (not all of it but in general) over the past couple years. A lot of countries see under 100 in most areas, I run about 120 usually. Can't say I ever caused a wipe below 200 MS though.

I should have been clearer with that, as mentioned earlier in this thread in EU you have polish guilds and danish guilds and finnish guilds etc who are all in the same timezone, its rare to have a guild with members both in russia and spain for example..

[Raiju]

I should have been clearer with that, as mentioned earlier in this thread in EU you have polish guilds and danish guilds and finnish guilds etc who are all in the same timezone, its rare to have a guild with members both in russia and spain for example..

No, it's extremely common to have multi-nationality guild. I daresay a sweeping majority of EU guilds are multi-nationality with national guilds being the minority like paragon. The only country that *really* keeps to themselves is russia, even then a lot of the guilds have a bit of splash despite having their own realms.

[Hulkovius]

Its so pathetic talking about timezones and whatnot. Have u guys heard about russia? TimeZone_Russia. Add rest of Western EU to that and go figure.

I get that there might be some cultural differences between EU and US and that hardcore gaming is less accepted in US but when I asked my boss for some days of to race the world first He laughed in my face. Even tho I got time off it felt wrong to tell my boss that I was going to spend the time @ home in front of the computer. I guess it helped to tell him That I was currently in a World 2 guild. But I might just have excluded that info, telling him that I was going for a trip or what ever.

As I have mentioned before, how can there not be a single US guild that doesnt have any problems? Even tho u have, its not like they dont exist in EU. For example during our progression with Sanitas we had 1 guy constantly DCing due to his ISP and we lacked like 20 hours + due to that. Add additional problems like one guy who had his entire Addonfolder erased, me having issues with 400 MS frome time to time, 1 guy had is brother beaten up and had to go to the hospital. We reside in Sweden and we are supposed to have like the best Infrastructure in the world when it comes to Network. I still dont buy all those excuses.

The only reason they're not up there with Garrosh 10 HC dead yet is because either they dont care or they suck.

[Dawnrage]

Well the direction this thread went in was not my intention at all. I wasn't expecting all the EU guys to come here saying the US sucks, and the US guys who aren't at garrosh to come here defend us from that accusation. I was more expecting someone from a US 10 man guild on garrosh to explain what the deal is, but I guess they are all being hush about this since they don't want to give any advantage to the other guilds who are in the running for a first.

[Glogz]

Well Hulkovius, I don't think its a matter of not caring, I know for a fact my guild cares about killing garrosh, but in reality when you break it down, EU guilds just just want it more and put more time into it. When i look at twitch and I see a guild on week 4 of progress starting at 10:00 am local time on a saturday, sorry to say but that just doesn't happen here in the us, atleast not in my guild <Nightmare Asylum>. So i think when you say something like they don't care or they suck, that casts a wide net. Sure, every guild has problems during progress, like you noted, hell, we lost over 11 raiding days this tier for one reason or another, the biggest one being someone in our own guild was ddosing another player in our guild, so yea, as you can see everyone has some sort of excuse and i'm sure avast and modest will kill it this week, and im sure the other guilds are close too, but i just figured i would say something, cuz to say US 10m guilds don't care or suck is a pretty bold statement.

[Pyromelter]

Well the direction this thread went in was not my intention at all. I wasn't expecting all the EU guys to come here saying the US sucks, and the US guys who aren't at garrosh to come here defend us from that accusation. I was more expecting someone from a US 10 man guild on garrosh to explain what the deal is, but I guess they are all being hush about this since they don't want to give any advantage to the other guilds who are in the running for a first.

I'll give an explanation, I'm a bench sub in an 11/14H guild. Most likely would be 13/14H, but one of the main tanks had a car accident where they lost 3 days of heroic attempts. This guild is I'd say "casually hardcore" which probably fits the description of almost every 10man team knocking on the door of heroic Garrosh. Avast raids 4x/week for 5 hours. Divinity is also a well-known 10man guild, they raid 4 hours/night 4x/week.

Other guilds that are US-based are also raiding 4-5x/week, 4-5 hours at a time, generally a maximum of 20 hours per week.

Guilds such as these are generally very sensitive to any kind of player loss. Recruitment is always difficult, but I can tell you my guild's main raid team was significantly held back in ToT because of difficulty filling a certain dps spot. The churn rate can be quite high - I can't speak for Europe, but every raid team I've ever been on (here in the US) has some sort of significant loss at least every couple of months, and when luck is really bad, it can be every other week.

I see both Avast and Modest are recruiting, right now, the top 2 US ranked 10mans.

It is my belief that instability of rosters, in combination of no true "hardest of hardcore" type 10man raids that are going 7 hours a day, 7 days a week, is what is holding most guilds back. I personally don't think it has much to do with mechanics or fight difficulty versus the 25man version. There could be an argument made for a slightly higher difficulty level (when you consider like percentage of people getting MC'ed, or percentage of people pulled off a boss, or not being able to stack 50% of your raid with warlocks and rogues), but IMO it is simply a matter of lack of execution due to the nature of "casually hardcore" type raiding that doesn't put a premium on raiding for 50 hours every week.

- - - Updated - - -

The only reason their not up there with Garrosh 10 HC dead yet is because either they dont care or they suck.

To respond to this directly - these people care a great deal. The RL in my guild can get quite heated, and the raid team is filled with people who want to be held accountable, who want to be realm first, US first, etc.

They just don't care about it to the point where they are willing to alter their daily loves for it.

So the more accurate phrase is "they don't prioritize it over their real life responsibilities." That would be the best way to put it. Otherwise someone else on our raid team would have had a heroic geared tank ready to go to step in for our tank who was out, and would have had me fill in a dps spot. You'll notice I did not take the time to gear my tank toon for heroic progression, either. This is a common attitude. Very few players have multiple toons in separate roles for their main raid - of course they have alts, but those alts are not like the kinds of alts you seen in Method, where arguably the best mage on the planet will have an equally geared warlock ready to go when needed.

There is definitely not that level of dedication.

[Omfgjames]

Is this most players first game that's had any sort of competition? The US has dragged ass in competitive gaming ever since I've had an interest in it (counter strike 1.3 era). European and Asian gamers have always taken gaming much, much more serious than American players, and (at least when I was competitive during cs 1.3-1.6) had a better chance at receiving some sort of compensation for all of those hours logged (sponsorship, LAN tournaments, etc.) which could, and did, result in more free time to spend bettering themselves at said game.

[Togeshero]

Not all of Europe of course, but at least every Scandinavian country and many central/eastern European countries.

So i live in one of these Scandinavian countries, and atm i'm living of the debt my bank will allow me to build up while studieing as i can't find a job atm, and the state won't pay me social services because i've proven that i can take care of my self (by earning over 13k euro's in half a year). Now with no job i'm litterelly fucked (or i would be if i didn't have a good relationship with my bank and got a huge credit i can live on) and i'm 22....

I'm not American.

And I'm sorry that you interpreted it as if every single European didn't have to have a job while studying. I did not intend for it to come out like that.

I'm sorry for assuming you're american, but that's just a a pretty standard statement from one of them.

[willemh]

The Netherlands is already on a standard 4-day work week.

Hahaha I'm not sure where you got this information from. But I'm from the Netherlands and I work 40 hours a week and I'm certainly no exception. Standard full-time working hours are 36-40 hours a week.

All this argueing is quite funny tho. Especially Americans complaining as if they live in a third world country with bad social systems. Guess what, you're the richest country in the world, yet you CHOOSE not to have proper social systems. Increase taxes, make your rich less rich, and your poor less poor. Sorted. Look at all the trouble Obama has to introduce a very basic social healthcare system.

Also try to look at the general picture a bit more. The debts you make while studying in the US are payed off far easier because you dont pay 40% taxes on your salary like we do here in the Netherlands.

In the end the money is coming from somewhere you know. Europeans didnt invent a system to create free money, trust me.

[Deleted]

I'll give an explanation, I'm a bench sub in an 11/14H guild. Most likely would be 13/14H, but one of the main tanks had a car accident where they lost 3 days of heroic attempts. This guild is I'd say "casually hardcore" which probably fits the description of almost every 10man team knocking on the door of heroic Garrosh. Avast raids 4x/week for 5 hours. Divinity is also a well-known 10man guild, they raid 4 hours/night 4x/week.

So if you just check the guilds you mentioned, avast raided for 13 hours on release day, that is not a casual hardcore guild. I highly doubt they sticked to their 4x5 schedule if they raid 13 hours the first day. Same goes for divinity who sported a 10 hour raid on release day. Whichever way you twist it, they are not casual hardcore.

Checking some US progress, they fit the pattern of a guild using time to down bosses. By every boss kill they got they drop and drop and drop rankings. Which is the standard pattern. What is happening is that guilds spending less time raiding but have better players catch up and surpass. The guilds that spend more time raiding often get a head start in the first few weeks since the first bosses is not really hard, they are just a time sink. But once you get to the harder bosses, those guilds get stuck longer, and the guilds in the back raiding for fewer hours catch up. Now there could of course be other factors such as people going away/leaving or whatever. Without knowing the facts and just checking the data available, I say your premiss falls short.

My guild has 5 official raid days for 5 hours, we never bend or twist that schedule. We do however ask the entire raid if people want to start earlier/finish later, but by no means it is mandatory. At midnight we ask "Anyone needs to leave?", and as soon as someone needs to go we call the raid. This means our raids often average 6-6.5 hours. Our 5 raid days often averages 4 raid days, we only raided 3 times last week. Yet I would not call us, or any of the guild you mentioned as casual hardcore. If you are having 5+ hour raids 4+ days a week, you are not casual. You are maybe not extremely hardcore raiding 12+ hours 7 days a week, but you are still hardcore.[/QUOTE]

Guilds such as these are generally very sensitive to any kind of player loss. Recruitment is always difficult, but I can tell you my guild's main raid team was significantly held back in ToT because of difficulty filling a certain dps spot. The churn rate can be quite high - I can't speak for Europe, but every raid team I've ever been on (here in the US) has some sort of significant loss at least every couple of months, and when luck is really bad, it can be every other week.

I see both Avast and Modest are recruiting, right now, the top 2 US ranked 10mans.

My guild have dealt with losing a tank, 2 dpsers and a healer double reroll (first rerolling in the start of the tier to a 530 ilvl resto druid and then rerolling back to his mistweaver for garrosh), while it hurts, it is not the end of the world. It set us back a few raids for sure, would probably have killed garrosh by now with a set team, but honestly it is our own fault, so nothing to complain about.

Also all top100 guilds is always recruiting. Just check wowprogress and 75% of the guilds has ticked in recruiting and the other 25% is also recruiting for sure.

It is my belief that instability of rosters, in combination of no true "hardest of hardcore" type 10man raids that are going 7 hours a day, 7 days a week, is what is holding most guilds back. I personally don't think it has much to do with mechanics or fight difficulty versus the 25man version. There could be an argument made for a slightly higher difficulty level (when you consider like percentage of people getting MC'ed, or percentage of people pulled off a boss, or not being able to stack 50% of your raid with warlocks and rogues), but IMO it is simply a matter of lack of execution due to the nature of "casually hardcore" type raiding that doesn't put a premium on raiding for 50 hours every week.

There are not that many EU guilds going the hardest of hardcore either though, outside of the top 5. There are several EU guilds that has more sensible raid times that killed it.

Also, I do not think people comprehend how big the difference on Garrosh is between 10 and 25 man. This tier overall has been pretty good in terms of 10 and 25 man balance, Thok was significantly harder in 10, and Paragons significantly harder in 25, but overall it was kinda fine until 13/14, but Garrosh favors 25 man guilds beyond words.

[Deleted]

I think its nonsense trying to compare US average work hours to the EU average work hours, each person is different some people playing in the US might not even have jobs while some EU players might work 40+ hours a week and vise versa. There isn't just one reason why no US guild has not killed Garrosh yet, i believe each guild has it's own strengths and weaknesses and the US 10 man guilds may be lacking in things what the EU 10 man guilds are stronger at.

[Deleted]

are people seriously blaming this on workhours?

there is probably a lot of nolife gamers in the US as well, and it is pretty strange that there is no 10m HC kill at all so far.

[Hexz]

The oceanic community just doesn't have the talent to give us the indomitable 15 players we'd need to be able to field proper kill-comps outside of 4-5 standard raids after the first few weeks.

I would say one thing that goes threw the oc community, is there is a lot of talented players that are loyal to there guilds even if they are not doing so well, that being said there are some amazing players in oc and its not just loyalty that keeps them from moving, its the time frame they have to play, just a numbers thing really, if you could just put all the oc players together regardless of those facts then sure np. You also got to remember choice that majority of the top us guilds, at least in 25man have a few Australians in them as well.

[Mulled]

Avast is an Oceanic guild, while yes, they are still technically on an American server, they are playing on 3-4 times your ping.

more respect.

[Hexz]

Speaking of ping, this kind of made me lol

me having issues with 400 MS frome time to time

So common for me to deal with like 400 ms during raiding time 7-9pm is like so peak time here its easy for my ping to be sitting at 400ms, bad net is like when you talkin 600ms + I'm sure there are many oc players that deal with that, at best most sit on like 200 heh, honestly its not that massive but then when you start talking about world top 20 ranks it makes a diffidence, especially on fights like thok. that 2.4 seconds between interrupts at the 20-30 stack level isn't 2.4 seconds cast time it like 1.5 by the time everything registers

[Ailylia]

How on earth do you play on 600ms lag? You'd have to have like ESP or something. Or use the force.

Oh shit! EU/Aus are force sensitive! Of course it all makes sense now!!

[Raiju]

How on earth do you play on 600ms lag? You'd have to have like ESP or something. Or use the force.

Oh shit! EU/Aus are force sensitive! Of course it all makes sense now!!

consistent lag is easy to deal with, spike lag is not.

I know in 4.0 I had consistently high lag and would count to hit interrupts on bosses.

[Hulkovius]

Speaking of ping, this kind of made me lol

So common for me to deal with like 400 ms during raiding time 7-9pm is like so peak time here its easy for my ping to be sitting at 400ms, bad net is like when you talkin 600ms + I'm sure there are many oc players that deal with that, at best most sit on like 200 heh, honestly its not that massive but then when you start talking about world top 20 ranks it makes a diffidence, especially on fights like thok. that 2.4 seconds between interrupts at the 20-30 stack level isn't 2.4 seconds cast time it like 1.5 by the time everything registers

First of all OC doesnt belong to US even tho they do play on US servers and I dont even know how all this ended up in the discussion about US. I am perfectly aware of the MS issues in Australia However and have read a lot of posts from player/s in Avast. I pay my respect to those guys and think they are rly impressive playing with Significantly higher MS 150-250 If I remember correctly?. The difference between 400 MS and 600 is just meh anyhow. Lag is lag and u cant perform especially if it is spiky.

The lag or high MS is a problem in the entire world I tell u that, not only in US and OC.

[Deleted]

In the US 25 man raiding is more popular in the hardcore scene. There simply are not as many good and hardcore 10 man US guilds as EU guilds. The top 10 man EU guilds are just that far ahead of the top 10 man US guilds.

40% more 25man heroic EU guilds than US. EU player base is actually smaller than US. Your argument is invalid.