SoO Nerfs, infuriating.

[miffy23]

There has to be a cutoff somewhere. I'm sorry to be the one to break the bad news, but if you couldn't kill a boss before the nerfs you simply weren't good enough or didn't spend enough time on it. I'm not trying to insult you or anything but that's the cold hard truth.

The question is why there has to be a timer at all. The number of struggling and failing heroic guilds compared to the people clamoring over LFR or Flex is insignificant - why not give us what we generally want - unbending harshness. If we fail, it's our fault. Don't put a timer on it so only people with the abundant free time get to tackle the hardest content.

[Madruga]

Still not convinced that nerfs are in any way needed, when everyone can see content now. Why is Blizzard obsessed with everyone being able to clear HC?

People stuck for too long on a single encounter tend to give up. And that means losing subs.

You can be sure that the nerfs were so minimal because raids are still progressing and not quiting over the difficulty of a given boss. If that was the case, we would have blanket nerfs, which are far greater than the very small nerfs 3 bosses had, 2 if you are 25. People are making a storm out of nothing, really.

[Sting]

The question is why there has to be a timer at all. The number of struggling and failing heroic guilds compared to the people clamoring over LFR or Flex is insignificant - why not give us what we generally want - unbending harshness. If we fail, it's our fault. Don't put a timer on it so only people with the abundant free time get to tackle the hardest content.

Who is this "we" you speak of? Is that your opinion that's apparently shared by an unknown number of other people?
Historically, there have always been nerfs, only the people who spent enough free time on it got the prenerf kills. This should come as no surprise. If you want to kill the prenerf versions of bosses, just spend enough time on it. If you can't spend enough time, that's your problem not blizzard's problem.

[miffy23]

Who is this "we" you speak of? Is that your opinion that's apparently shared by an unknown number of other people?
Historically, there have always been nerfs, only the people who spent enough free time on it got the prenerf kills. This should come as no surprise. If you want to kill the prenerf versions of bosses, just spend enough time on it. If you can't spend enough time, that's your problem not blizzard's problem.

I generally don't know anyone in the raiding community on my realm who is happy about heroic nerfs at any point. Some are better teams, some are faster, others take longer or can't beat certain fights. We accept that. Personally, I've never expected or even wanted Blizzard to make heroic easier in any way or form.

Yep you're right there have been nerfs in the past, didn't agree with those either. It's a philosophical question.
Anyway it's clear this isn't going to lead anywhere - those that already cleared mostly just scoff anyway, those that are struggling skillwise now will be happy, those that struggle activitywise like us will simply be miffed, no way around that.

I'm hoping for Mythic to have more "integrity" and not bend the knee to people feeling they deserve their achievement for their sub fee.

[velde046]

So why nerf?[/B]

Because the number of kills/progression is falling behind on what Blizzard expected. They are adjusting to match.
Possibly their target was to have 3% of guilds kill Garrosh on heroic and they are at 1%. In order to achieve their target they nerf it.

Love it or hate it, but the reason is (or could be) as simple as that.

[Kowloon]

I'm in a 11/14H 25m 3 day/9 hour guild and I'm stoked for these nerfs. We've had a severe problem with keeping players around this tier and have constantly had to regear new players or teach them new fights and it was getting very tiresome. So as far as I'm concerned, nerfs are welcome. You have no idea how frustrating it is to not make any progression on new bosses FOR 5+ WEEKS because people flake out and our low pop realm does not have enough good players to support bringing in players from other guilds. We haven't had problems killing any of the first 11 bosses but the holidays decimated any chance at continual raid progression/momentum for my guild and since then, it's just been terrible... I can't stand reclearing normal or the beginning heroic mode bosses to gear people out, reteaching fights along the way, waiting for the undergeared recruits to gear up, and then finally, we can start on new bosses.... That is.... If people in my guild don't stop dropping out like flies 'wanting to be casual' after they got 575 item level.

[Deleted]

Because the number of kills/progression is falling behind on what Blizzard expected. They are adjusting to match.
Possibly their target was to have 3% of guilds kill Garrosh on heroic and they are at 1%. In order to achieve their target they nerf it.

Love it or hate it, but the reason is (or could be) as simple as that.

If that was the reason they would just nerf Garrosh.

[Frozendekay]

since I don't plan on farming any bosses.

What does that even mean? You're going to extend every single week? Because that's honestly insanity. Just reclearing to where you're at every week is going to significantly boost ilvl very quickly.

[Bigvizz]

That is sadly mutually exclusive though.

For example on Thok, my friends guild is currently progressig Thok, they got 572 averege ilvl. When we killed Thok we only had 553 (alliance guild), which as far as I can tell from WoWprogress is the lowest in the world of any alliance (and horde?) guild. We spent about 100 wipes on Thok which I bet a lot of guilds now feel is "average" and okay. The difference is, if we would have had 572 ilvl we would highly likely have one shot thok, at most we would have spent 3-4 wipes on it.

The fight is just two differet worlds with 20 item level difference.

You cant simply compare your amount of wipes for that reason, given the average item level of the guilds that progress Thok now, we would just have stomped the encounter down like it was flex or something.

Wondering what guild are you in? The lowest ilvl kill I see is 556 by Paragon for Heroic Thok. Unless your talking about normal /shrug

[miffy23]

What does that even mean? You're going to extend every single week? Because that's honestly insanity. Just reclearing to where you're at every week is going to significantly boost ilvl very quickly.

We don't plan on boosting ilvl or farming though, unless we hit a solid brick wall, which we may very well do at some point looking at the experience reports here. But so far, we're just going to keep going and extending.
Average ilvl is just above 560 atm for most of my team, some slightly below. Unless we reach a point where we just can't hack it i don't plan on cheesing it by piling on ilvl. It's doable.

[Deleted]

Wondering what guild are you in? The lowest ilvl kill I see is 556 by Paragon for Heroic Thok. Unless your talking about normal /shrug

I raided in NollTvåTre, but as the guild faction changed the old records are no longer available. We had a lot of gear issues due to having replace 3 people and having rerolls during the tier. The reason our item level was so low for Thok was also because we had two tanks at 54x item level aswell as a healer at 54x. So our item level being that low was not a result of anything other than having terrible planning and bad "luck" with members leaving and having to emergancy replace. Our item level should have been a lot higher at the kill, but we had to work with what we had and we made it work, could have done it with less. As far as I have seen the lowest ilvl horde kill is 555 and the lowest item level alliance kill other than our 559. But, our dpsers were probably around 556 average, and of course a lot of the guilds above us could have done it with lower item level. I think Thok is doable as alliance at 550~ and 546~ as horde as even on our kill we had a guy dead for well over 2 minutes. We also used 2 tanks and 3 heals.

- - - Updated - - -

That's nice for you, and i'm sure you're very proud of it, as you should be. But considering only <normal difficulty average ilvl to be the "real" difficulty setting on a heroic fight isn't exactly inclusive to others either. You're kind of putting up a pedestal that noone else after you can reach anyway, so why bother.
Heroic fights are roughly tuned to be feasible between 550-560, and ofc the higher you go the easier it gets. That says little about flat out nerfs or changes to the encounter apart from gear increase.

Your accomplishments are fine, but for all intents and purposes, heroic wasn't supposed to be tackled in 553 gear by the average heroic raiding guild. 560++ is just fine for difficulty. You can't really compare the 0.01% to casual heroic raiders like ourselves.

And for the record, we're not asking for the bleeding edge experience. We're not that good, fact of the matter is 99.99% of raiders aren't a) that good and b) that dedicated, most importantly. We just want the fights unchanged, the rest is up to the raiders themselves anyway.

I was not trying to flex my ego or anything, as really, Thok is only the 11th boss, who cares about thok :P.

Was merely trying to point out how silly the rage on these nerfs are. The nerfs are not even big, I do not get what all the crying is about. The hard part about Thok has always been his health, that remains unchanged. All damage on Thoks hard hitting spells also unaffected. Thoks kiting speed, unaffected. The only thing that changed on Thok was a meaningless tank attack and the RNG bolts. It does not make the fight any easier whatsoever, it only helps remove a few wipes due to RNG deaths that nobody likes anyway. It is more of a bug fix than a nerf really. The boss is exactly the same, you will just get less RNG wipes.

Same goes for Siegecrafter. Mines are now viable on 10 man, a few nerfs to some of the abilities to lower the need to stack certain tank classes and belt classes, but overall the fight is largely unchanged.

As for Paragons, from a 10 man PoV, the fight is exactly the same. We never ever had someone die on either Multishot or Fiery Edges, both mechanics are complete jokes on 10 man and are not relevant to the fight in any way. The fight is exactly the same.

This is why I do not get the excessive hate on these "nerfs" as they are barely noticeable, a few quality of life changes and fine tunings. And it is also hillarious when people say they want to see the bosses in the "same difficulty" as other players, yet they overgear the content by 15 item levels. Makes no sense to me. These nerfs at best are worth 1 item level.

[Strepp]

I'm in a 11/14H 25m 3 day/9 hour guild and I'm stoked for these nerfs. We've had a severe problem with keeping players around this tier and have constantly had to regear new players or teach them new fights and it was getting very tiresome. So as far as I'm concerned, nerfs are welcome. You have no idea how frustrating it is to not make any progression on new bosses FOR 5+ WEEKS because people flake out and our low pop realm does not have enough good players to support bringing in players from other guilds. We haven't had problems killing any of the first 11 bosses but the holidays decimated any chance at continual raid progression/momentum for my guild and since then, it's just been terrible... I can't stand reclearing normal or the beginning heroic mode bosses to gear people out, reteaching fights along the way, waiting for the undergeared recruits to gear up, and then finally, we can start on new bosses.... That is.... If people in my guild don't stop dropping out like flies 'wanting to be casual' after they got 575 item level.

Oh I do know what you're talking about. We spent WEEKS wiping on Heroic Immerseus because our OT needed some time away (in fact I still have more wipes logged on Immerseus than any other heroic fight). We had some serious nightmares trying to replace him. Our GM recruited a dude, paid for his server transfer, only to have the guy server transfer again mid raid one night, after he rocketed in ilvl and got his Garrosh kill.

Sadly this stuff happens, the best you can do is accept it and move on.

Now I understand that these "nerfs" are more of bringing 10man in line with 25man, and that's cool. What I don't like is this timer that people keep putting on Heroic raiding. Why is 4 months (with a Christmas break) the litmus test for "skill"? Hell, why do people keep saying "if you aren't on Siegecrafter now, you won't kill Garrosh before WoD" when it's looking like WoD won't be until the summer? Like I said before, you don't know me, you don't know why I play this game, so stop making these assumptions that we have the same goals in this game and let me and my friends play the way we want to play. We have as much right to do it as you.

[Daetur]

My guild is a Heroic guild as well. 14/14 H is very likely possible for us by the end of the expansion, but our progression is pretty slow. We know that Blizzard hits raids with nerfs after a few months. We know that if we clear slowly, we won't have pre-nerf kills on some of the bosses. I don't see why you're pissed off or didn't see this coming a mile away.

There are sub-tiers of heroic raiders.

Bleeding edge raiders who clear the whole instance in the time before the nerfs.
Heroic raiders who take longer for a full clear and have post-nerf kills.

It's doesn't mean you're not in the top 5% of PvE players in this game, dude.

[Deleted]

Do ppl seriously think they have a chance to kill H garrosh before WoD if they haven't even downed H thok at this point unless they started like 2 weeks ago?

You've killed all of SoO hc within less than 4 months. Why should other guilds not be able to do it within 6 more? A good group will be completely fine with or without the nerfs. These statements are stupid, as you don't know what stopped the other groups from progressing.

[Deleted]

You've killed all of SoO hc within less than 4 months. Why should other guilds not be able to do it within 6 more? A good group will be completely fine with or without the nerfs. These statements are stupid, as you don't know what stopped the other groups from progressing.

A guild that is at 10/14H has completed about 30% of SoO. Presuming they will continue in the same pace, It will take them about another 8-9 months to complete the tier, at which point WoD will have been out a long long time ago.

For a vast majority of guilds that are not yet 12/14H, WoD will be out before they get to garrosh. Of course there will be exceptions, some guilds started late, havent raided etc, whatever the reason can be, but that does not change the fact that those are exceptions. If you got even lower to about 8/14H, those guilds have about 24 months of progression to go in the in their current pace to reach Garrosh.
A guild that have been actively playing and progressing since SoO came out will not clear the content without major nerfs unless they are currently 12/14 or above.

People really underestimate how much easier the first part of SoO is than the later parts. If you are not breezing through the first bosses then you will not down Garrosh. Period.

[Count Zero]

My guild is a Heroic guild as well. 14/14 H is very likely possible for us by the end of the expansion, but our progression is pretty slow. We know that Blizzard hits raids with nerfs after a few months. We know that if we clear slowly, we won't have pre-nerf kills on some of the bosses. I don't see why you're pissed off or didn't see this coming a mile away.

There are sub-tiers of heroic raiders.

Bleeding edge raiders who clear the whole instance in the time before the nerfs.
Heroic raiders who take longer for a full clear and have post-nerf kills.

It's doesn't mean you're not in the top 5% of PvE players in this game, dude.

That's the thing. There are some raiders who maybe/might/could/would have cleared H Garry pre-nerf if they'd had more time. These folks are pissed because now there is little/no delineation between those that needed the Thok/Blackfuse/Paragons adjustments and those that didn't. They want to be closer to the .23% than to the 2%, and in their minds it's Blizz's fault, not theirs.

[Senen]

That's the thing. There are some raiders who maybe/might/could/would have cleared H Garry pre-nerf if they'd had more time. These folks are pissed because now there is little/no delineation between those that needed the Thok/Blackfuse/Paragons adjustments and those that didn't. They want to be closer to the .23% than to the 2%, and in their minds it's Blizz's fault, not theirs.

I would love to see guilds saying "We would have killed 'end tier boss' if we had more time, but Blizzard decided to release a new raid tier, that's so unfair!"
Oh, wait, I've already seen some of this.

[Crowfeather]

A guild that is at 10/14H has completed about 30% of SoO. Presuming they will continue in the same pace, It will take them about another 8-9 months to complete the tier, at which point WoD will have been out a long long time ago.

For a vast majority of guilds that are not yet 12/14H, WoD will be out before they get to garrosh. Of course there will be exceptions, some guilds started late, havent raided etc, whatever the reason can be, but that does not change the fact that those are exceptions. If you got even lower to about 8/14H, those guilds have about 24 months of progression to go in the in their current pace to reach Garrosh.
A guild that have been actively playing and progressing since SoO came out will not clear the content without major nerfs unless they are currently 12/14 or above.

People really underestimate how much easier the first part of SoO is than the later parts. If you are not breezing through the first bosses then you will not down Garrosh. Period.

You yourself stated that your guild downed heroic thok with a much lower ilvl than those getting him down today, and fighting him at 575 is vastly different than fighting him at 555, which is something I agree with. So what makes you think it's literally gonna take 24 months for a 8/14H guild to get past content with their gear being as high as it is? There are already a couple of guilds who are by no means bleeding-edge who've gotten past Siegecrafter already....a lot of it due to the fact that they have 575 gear.

[Deleted]

Are there any numbers out yet? I heard someone say something about a tweet saying that the Thok nerfs are at about 10%, where do I find this? If its true, most resonable would be ~10% to all the things they are nerfing.

[Deleted]

You yourself stated that your guild downed heroic thok with a much lower ilvl than those getting him down today, and fighting him at 575 is vastly different than fighting him at 555, which is something I agree with. So what makes you think it's literally gonna take 24 months for a 8/14H guild to get past content with their gear being as high as it is? There are already a couple of guilds who are by no means bleeding-edge who've gotten past Siegecrafter already....a lot of it due to the fact that they have 575 gear.

Pure statistics from a friend of mine that made a graph of how much time it takes on average to down each boss. After 8/14H, guilds are roughly 17% into SoO, at 10/14H roughly 33% into SoO (speaking about time spent / time remaining). Taking that into consideration if they continue in their current pace it would take that insane amount of time. Of course there will be exceptions to that rules, mileage will vary and further nerfs are likely to happen. A lot of guilds will never be able to kill Garrosh either way. As I mentioned earlier in I believe this thread, a friends guild is at Thok currently with 572 item level average, and they are struggling with the dps check, heck shouldnt say struggling, they cant beat the dps check. If they cant beat the dps check on Thok with 572, they will never beat Garrosh even with full 580 unless they replace people.

On average, it almost takes longer time to kill Siegecrafter than it takes to kill the previous 11 bosses together.