Lack of 5 man content

[Deleted]

All I know is they're going about things with dungeons all wrong. Making them stupid easy was the wrong move, making the challenging mode a fucking race was wrong, making them reward LFR gear in WOD is wrong. If they reward LFR gear, then it's obvious which route most people will take to gear up: LFR of course! If dungeons are harder than LFR, and they better fucking be, then they ought to reward better gear. By making LFR the only real stop on the gear train, they seem to be effectively putting the final nail in the five man coffin.

Somewhat flawed argument - if you have two routes, the easy and the difficult and they both end up in the same destination (LFR ilvl gear) then what route *other* players take doesn't diminish *your* enjoyment at all.

So feel free to take the more difficult route - share it with other likeminded people and enjoy the damn game.
If others take the LFR route, then more power to them, but it doesn't take *anything* away from your enjoyment of running really fucking hard dungeons.

The fact that you want to boast about pre-raid level gear in front of some casual LFR players makes it seem like you're trying a bit too hard to be a wannabe elite but can't quite cut it. Feel free to taunt everyone once you stand in front of the AH in your Mythical Tier set though.

[Stormspark]

Hate scenarios ... And hate isn't a strong enough word tbh... I hate the loot system.. The half assed feel to them over all pisses me off. I'd rather have a few well done hcs with an excuse to keep running them throughout the expac than yet more bloody scenarios.

I honestly just wish they would make scenarios 5-mans. Merge the scenarios into the dungeon queue and be done with it. Normal scenarios = normal dungeons. Heroic scenarios = heroic dungeons. Same quality gear. Done.

[snuzzle]

Somewhat flawed argument - if you have two routes, the easy and the difficult and they both end up in the same destination (LFR ilvl gear) then what route *other* players take doesn't diminish *your* enjoyment at all.

So feel free to take the more difficult route - share it with other likeminded people and enjoy the damn game.
If others take the LFR route, then more power to them, but it doesn't take *anything* away from your enjoyment of running really fucking hard dungeons.

The fact that you want to boast about pre-raid level gear in front of some casual LFR players makes it seem like you're trying a bit too hard to be a wannabe elite but can't quite cut it. Feel free to taunt everyone once you stand in front of the AH in your Mythical Tier set though.

Well, ordinarily that'd be true. But in this case, it actually does because more people choosing to queue for LFR = less people choosing to queue for dungeons. It isn't about boasting, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to assume that. It's about ensuring there's a decent enough pool of players to choose from so the queues aren't ridiculous (or, if you can't queue for it, to search for in general chat without getting laughed at and told to do LFR).

When rewards are equal, most folks will just choose the easier route. LFR not only awards the same gear level as dungeons, but Blizzard has said they will also give LFR increased drop rates. It's easy to see how this would hurt five mans.

[Xayl1]

I actually agree on the scenarios thing the tech and general idea of them seem sort of useful but not as any sort of actual end game or gearing mechanic. i think they should stick with the idea of using them for more focused story moments that a person might not want a whole bunch of randoms /farting through.

[BurnetRhoades]

Mounts, transformation items, drops dependent upon speed, these can all keep running 5mans through the next tier and the tier after that still valuable. So what if you DE or vendor all the loot, you're going back for something maybe you never got or couldn't quite get in its original tier (look at all the people farming really old content, for non-viable gear used just for aesthetics and rare drops).

I hate the holiday bosses now that they implemented the LFD tool but they could also put special holiday loot in the table of previous tier 5-man dungeons. They've done this before with previous tier raid content as well, hence the vampire batling pet and the original Arcanite Ripper. It didn't matter that it was much later in BC, folks started running the crap out of Kara again and remembering why it was such a cool raid.

A dungeon or raid becoming totally forgotten or ignored after a subsequent content patch is a matter of bad big picture design. BC and Wrath were better in this respect but, still, this many years and this far in and Blizzard hasn't learned how to keep older content relevant through thoughtful design. There are so many places they could entice players to go back someplace or take more than a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am pass through content.

[notorious98]

Get rid of LFR and scenarios and put in a dozen or more really cool 5 mans.

Each major patch adds 3 more.

Put in some cool gear and its a win all round.

I hate how they destroyed 5 mans, it was the coolest thing about end game back in WOTLK for peeps like me who did not raid regularly.

It was the same during TBC as well. They've completely destroyed the small group/casual player experience.

Here's another solution, introduce Mythic dungeons. Escalate the damage, healing, etc. with every patch. Make it a requirement for pre-made groups, similar to Heroic Scenarios. Put a couple newer mechanics in it. Most of all, eliminate any B-rez, make it so that losing one player will likely end up in a wipe, and hand out raid quality gear.

- - - Updated - - -

When rewards are equal, most folks will just choose the easier route. LFR not only awards the same gear level as dungeons, but Blizzard has said they will also give LFR increased drop rates. It's easy to see how this would hurt five mans.

Also, if they bring back the coins, there's another chance at gear. However, the lockout still exists for LFR where it doesn't for dungeons. So clearing dungeons could still be more efficient.

[Caliph]

They should make LFR and heroic dungeons equal in gearing so that we dn't have to suffer through lFR non sense and still have fun with some engaging content. That would mean heroic dungeons would need to be made difficult once again. If you prefer LFR it's still there but i would rather feel like i'm actually doing something.

[Rivin]

They should make LFR and heroic dungeons equal in gearing so that we dn't have to suffer through lFR non sense and still have fun with some engaging content. That would mean heroic dungeons would need to be made difficult once again. If you prefer LFR it's still there but i would rather feel like i'm actually doing something.

That's basically what they're doing in WoD. Heroic dungeons will be more difficult than LFR. The expected gearing path for higher-end players is normal dungeons > heroic dungeons > heroic raids > mythic raids, whereas the more "casual" path is normal dungeons > LFR > normal raids.

[Varabently]

I recall having a LOT of fun doing heroics in TBC and early Cata, so yes.

It would keep me playing a lot longer than raids I expect. Difficult heroics are fun. Heroics that you can't cheese with gear (MoP heroics were CHEESED as soon as you had full blue gear!) are fucking fun.

Scenarios didn't fail IMO. They are fun to solo, but the difficulty just isn't there. Blizz has this idea that people want to see content. My response there is people want to EARN to see content. They don't want to be handed gear. It's fun for a while, but it gets old.

That's why people liked attunements from TBC. It felt like you had to work to get into raids. They were a reward in themselves. Just being able to be in there, with the shot at new gear was great. They were challenging for a long time. Even Karazhan was fun for the duration of TBC. Even with full T6 gear, it was somewhat challenging. Not difficult really, but it took a LOT of gear to make it not a mild challenge. You still had to follow mechanics and such.

The way gear scales now, you can probably solo heroic 5 mans with good SoO gear. The difference between blue 90 gear and heroic SoO gear is enormous and I think therein lies some of the problem. Content just becomes obsolete so blizzard is stuck in this cycle of making more content that they can't get out fast enough. Then they do these "catch-up" mechanics because they can't lure new players back if they had to run all the old LFR for weeks and weeks to get gear.

I just don't think this is a race Blizzard can win. They need to bring back difficult content. Make Mythic scenarios and dungeons IMO. Don't make any content loot pinatas. It just isn't fun.

[nekobaka]

That's basically what they're doing in WoD. Heroic dungeons will be more difficult than LFR. The expected gearing path for higher-end players is normal dungeons > heroic dungeons > heroic raids > mythic raids, whereas the more "casual" path is normal dungeons > LFR > normal raids.

Depends on what you mean "casual". If by taking their time and progressing slowly then LFR to normals works. Depending on how Heroics and LFR pans out the LFR path could still require far more time investment. If you can do normal mode then you can probably do heroics solo queue after doing silver proving grounds. We are also still unsure of the fate of gear upgrades. If there are no gear upgrades and no midway content nerf then going the path of LFR to normal is the slowest and largest time consumer of a normal mode capable player assuming that the gap isnt that large between heroic and LFR gear. If you do a daily CM then you can get gear that sits between LFR and normal mode, but no word on how hard those are supposed to be. The effort to reward ratio is still in LFRs favor, but time wise doing heroic dungeons might be the most casual.

[Ineluki]

Im sure its been stated by now but they already said the plan on adding new dungeons through out the expansion.

We’re also planning our content schedule to include additional max-level Heroic dungeons beyond the initial expansion release. One thing we heard from players during Mists of Pandaria was that they missed having new dungeon content later in the expansion, and our plan is to get back to that and adding new dungeon content beyond the initial expansion release.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/11499600

[Bigbazz]

Was talking to a friend and he was complaining about a lack of dungeons, I mentioned scenarios to him and he thought I was talking about some shitty half-assed quest instance that drop no loot (which they kinda are) and basically did not know what I was talking about. Blizzard pushed the scenario thing but didn't advertise them well, you can't (to my knowledge) just walk into a scenario and solo it, you have to queue for it and you can't do a random queue for the heroic scenarios.

Scenarios would be cool if they were implemented better, if you could stumble across them in the world. But ultimately I think there needs to be more (and better) 5man content in the game, maybe something with an ounce of challenge. The most challenge you get from 5mans comes from the non-heroics while leveling up and of course the challenge modes.. Heroic modes are a complete joke though.

[Mormolyce]

Shrug. Considering you finish gearing in dungeons in like a week...

I wouldn't want them to make like 20 dungeons because then it'd take forever to get all my alts through CMs :P

[Fang7986]

Scenarios are kinda fun the FIRST time you go through them. Repeating them is just boring. Some might find boring redoing dungeons over and over, but I think they are way more fun then scenarios.

This expansion they decide to not give us 5-Man dungeons on later patches, but they gave us a couple of scenarios. I've played every scenario like one time... But kept repeating the same 9 heroic dungeons over the course of 2 years. The gear scaled to a point where I can pretty much solo any boss, so joining a dungeon feels almost like I'm playing an old expansion content. If we had at least 2 new dungeons for each pack instead of a boring scenario it could have been more interesting.

They did gave us LFR and Flex, which can be interesting for getting some higher quality gear for alts or something, but at the same time, LFR can be a pain in the ass with non-optimized characters joining groups with people that still don't know they must get off Elegon's platform 2 years later (even though the game clearly says GET OFF THE PLATFORM YOU <CURSE WORD HERE>).

Now they are giving us only 6 all new dungeons, one reformed for heroic at top level and another 3 low level reformed. Ten total, 7 heroic, but only 6 entirely new. Hopefully it won't be like this for the whole expansion.

5-mans are only fun the first time you go through them too

- - - Updated - - -

I recall having a LOT of fun doing heroics in TBC and early Cata, so yes.

It would keep me playing a lot longer than raids I expect. Difficult heroics are fun. Heroics that you can't cheese with gear (MoP heroics were CHEESED as soon as you had full blue gear!) are fucking fun.

Scenarios didn't fail IMO. They are fun to solo, but the difficulty just isn't there. Blizz has this idea that people want to see content. My response there is people want to EARN to see content. They don't want to be handed gear. It's fun for a while, but it gets old.

That's why people liked attunements from TBC. It felt like you had to work to get into raids. They were a reward in themselves. Just being able to be in there, with the shot at new gear was great. They were challenging for a long time. Even Karazhan was fun for the duration of TBC. Even with full T6 gear, it was somewhat challenging. Not difficult really, but it took a LOT of gear to make it not a mild challenge. You still had to follow mechanics and such.

The way gear scales now, you can probably solo heroic 5 mans with good SoO gear. The difference between blue 90 gear and heroic SoO gear is enormous and I think therein lies some of the problem. Content just becomes obsolete so blizzard is stuck in this cycle of making more content that they can't get out fast enough. Then they do these "catch-up" mechanics because they can't lure new players back if they had to run all the old LFR for weeks and weeks to get gear.

I just don't think this is a race Blizzard can win. They need to bring back difficult content. Make Mythic scenarios and dungeons IMO. Don't make any content loot pinatas. It just isn't fun.

Nobody I've met since I started during BC has said they like attunements, just that they hated them.

[BurnetRhoades]

You hang out with noobs.

[Teebu]

"When there are 10 you don't get bored." What a load of crap. There's 9 now in MoP and there was more in Cata with ZA/ZG+the three CoT ones. Stop lying to yourself, dungeons weren't any better in WotLK. TBC they were nice because heroics were time consuming and required people who had never heard of Polymorph and Freezing Trap to actually use them every two minutes.

[Alvito]

It was made pretty clear by what they said and the content they gave us that they are all in with 3 man scenarios and that seems to be their idea for the future. I hope they put more 5 mans in and they aren't the zerg roflstomp they have been for so long. Something with a hint of a chance of wiping at the very least that requires a tank and healer would be great.

[Golden]

As to the post above, that's a fantastic idea, keep LFR though, and keep it one raid tier behind so people can run one tier old content and get geared for flex while adding a few more 5 mans that have a chance to drop some great gear. Idk, I just really enjoyed 5 mans.

I've been saying this for the last 2 years. There are a lot of things Blizz could do if LFR was a raid tier behind. They wouldn't even need to re-itemized it; LFR could just drop the old flex raid gear at that point. There would be no need to make special armor sets for LFR. Additionally, new 5 mans could be the same item level as the last LFR tier. People would then have the option of skipping LFR for 5 mans, or going into LFR for old set bonuses, transmog gear, etc. If Blizz really wanted to go crazy they could even give a small chance of dropping an old heroic mode raid piece in the tier-behind LFR (aka. something for non-raiders to grind over the long term similar to how Valor gear once was).

[goblingirl]

My favorite end game dungeons (post-Classic) have been the ones they do late in the expansion. The three Well of Eternity 5 mans were great, I ran them over and over. Being able to experience a bit of "history" with Illidan, Malfurion and Tyrande was good.

Ditto on the three Icecrown Citadel dungeons - those were a blast too. Marwin and Falric had some of the best voice work, and being chased up that hill by the Lich King for the first time gave me the creeps. Decently challenging in heroic mode even if you had pretty good gear.

I was sad they didn't do a final set of dungeons this time. However, if they'd done them in Orgrimmar, I doubt I would have enjoyed them anyway; I've had enough orc for now. Something in Caverns of Time would have been nice.

[Nutri]

I vote for more dungeons too

Scenarios didn't do much for me. Played them a few times, used them for gear a couple of times but the overall lack of difficulty made me neglect them. The MoP (heroic) dungeons didn't offer any reason to re-run them at all. Maybe if you enjoyed the scenery tho haha.

And with me not being a dedicated raider, I miss doing social activities in WoW. (LFR isn't a social thing). Scenarios are too short for most to even say 'hi' :-P

Personally, I think dungeons where at it's best during TBC. There where a lot of them, the HC versions where challenging (if you didn't had a T6 geared party that is, but that's unavoidable at some point), they offered rewards used to gear up and where a stepping stone to get into raids. Now, it had it's downside too tho, if you take alts into account. But every weekend we did have fun with our guild just doing timed runs etc in the heroics, and it did feel like somewhat of a challenge up until the last patches.

So yeah, I do feel Blizz is neglecting the 5man players.