Why are Arthas and Bolvar such different lich kings?

[shoc]

I'd like a citation on this. If his soul was stolen it would have been inside of Frostmourne until it was destroyed which we know is not the case.

Dialogue between Arthas and Tichondrius in WC3.

Arthas: What trickery is this?
Arthas: Mal'Ganis! I don't know how you survived, but I will--
Tichondrius: Calm yourself, Prince Arthas. I am Tichondrius. Like Mal'Ganis, I am a dreadlord, but I am not your enemy. In truth, I've come to congratulate you.
Arthas: Congratulate me?
Tichondrius: By killing your own father and delivering this land to the Scourge, you have passed your first test. The Lich King is pleased with your...enthusiasm.
Arthas: Yes. I've damned everyone and everything I've ever loved in his name, and I still feel no remorse. No shame. No pity.
Tichondrius: The runeblade that you carry was forged by the Lich King and empowered to steal souls. Yours was the first one it claimed.
Arthas: Then I'll make do without one. What is the Lich King's will?
Tichondrius: The Cult of the Damned must be rallied once again. Many of the acolytes have been in hiding from the populace. Once you've rallied them, I will give you further instructions.

Frost DK Artifact Questline (Purge the last remnant of Arthas's Soul from Frostmourne)



Start at 8:30

[Combatbutler]

snip

Those have been changed to echoes, Ner'zhul and Arthas are not really in there anymore, just a remnant.

[Deleted]

Those have been changed to echoes, Ner'zhul and Arthas are not really in there anymore, just a remnant.

Yeah I imagine them as very small fragments of their souls.

[Aurabolt]

As was said when details of the Artifact Quests involving the Scourge were first revealed, much of it comes down to experience and when each of them became the Lich King: Arthas was a Paladin and then a Death Knight before he became the Lich King. He already had intimate knowledge of the Scourge before he donned the Helm of Domination. When he became the Lich King, he instantly gained access to all of the knowledge (and memories) of the previous Lich King, Ner'zul (The Lich King famously tells Alliance Heroes during a certain Howling Fjord Quest "I was once a Shaman."). Those who read the Arthas novel SHOULD be aware of the internal struggle between the three personas: Arthas, Ner'zul and Arthas' humanity represented by Mattias Lehner (anagram for "Arthas Menethil"; Lehner shows players what happened after Arthas "disappeared" when he first got Frostmourne). Mentally, the Lich King said "WE ARE ONE". Arthas' personality becomes the dominant one but the moment he put the helm on, he was no longer Arthas or Ner'zul. Just The Lich King.

...That isn't head canon. That's established Lore, like it or not.

Why are Arthas and Bolvar so different as Lich King? Knowledge and Experience. Arthas was dormant for a few years afrer he becmae Lich King, likely absorbing all of the knowledge he would need from his previous incarnation and mastering his control of the Scourge. Speaking of, Arthas had help: Kel'Thuzad. As the Majordomo would tell Arthas when he was rezzed as an Arch Lich, everything had been set in motion by The Lich King for Arhas from his mortal form being slain to his being rezzed as an Arch Lich. This also kinda explains why Kel'Thuzad is able to act independently in the Plaguelands while The Lich King was dormant. He acted as the Lich King's proxy more or less to remind folks of what was to come.

Bolvar became Lich King after Arthas died and had no prior experience to absorb. He was a Paladin when he was a mortal so...yeah. it'll likely take him far longer to gain the level of mastery Arthas had: For example we know so far Bolvar can only directly control Scourge on Northrend. Arthas had a much further range. It also helped Arthas being able to move whereas Bolvar is in a fixed location. From what's been revealed so far, Darion Mograine + The Ebon Blade might be more powerful than Bolvar is right now. Of course, it helps The Ebon Blade was personally trained by Arthas. Darion recognizes the usefulness of the current Lich King and this is why he doesn't mind working with the Lich King--with a few conditions of course.

...Remember: The Scourge split after Arthas died. From the way it sounds, only the undead Scourge on Northrend heeded Bolvar's order to stand down. Those outside Northrend likely heard the order but chose to ignore it. They likely knew right away there was a new Lich King. Hence the Battle for Andorhal, Scholomance, Stratholme and Razorfen Downs post-WOTLK. Will the Scourge ever become as strong as it was under LK Arthas? Only time will tell though at the moment, LK Bolvar has the help of the Ebon Blade.

Did everyone forget that Arthas betrayed the mercenaries that fought for him AND sunk the ships of his own troops while lying to them?
That all happened much before he encountered frostmourne.

He did all that for revenge and vengeance, those were the main reasons he went to northrend.
The safety and security of his people were clearly a distant second by the time he reached the frozen shores.

...Someone mentioned this early on in the thread.

[Rathbourne]

Arthas was fucked up badly by Invincibles death and how he was helpless and powerless at that moment.He seemed to have loved that horse more than he loved his own family and all the good he did as a paladin did not bring it back.He felt the same powerlessness when his people were being turned into the undead and that trauma drove him rather psychotic.Its one of the main plots of his story.If you wanna put a lable on it Arthas was evil;but there was a bit of good in him,although the powerhungry side dominated him more.

Bolvar doesnt seem to have any traumas as far as we know.Well...not counting the torture and the semi burns.

[Aquamonkey]

Arthas always struck me as chaotic evil, maybe lawful evil but Bolvar seems neutral, perhaps even chaotic neutral.

Bolvar isn't at all bothered with world domination or the likes as Arthas is.

They're very different personality wise, basically. So what gives? Wasn't Arthas also "good" and "all that was holding back the scourge"?

Bolvar is good. Arthas held back the Scourge as a calculated plan to taunt the greatest champions so he could turn them into his minions.

wrong, arthas lost his soul to frostmourne after taking up the blade, basically he never had any moral compass because of it

He turned bad before he picked up Frostmourne.

I would presume that many of you know the story of Arthas, the paladin, the Prince of Lordaeron who, as the Scourge started to show itself in his homeland, he fought the good fight. And the harder he sought to stem the tide of death as a result of the Scourge, the more it wore him down. And the more worn down he got, he started to betray his morals, started to betray the tenants that defined him as a paladin. Ultimately, he succumbed to the darkness he was trying to defeat. Ultimately, he merged his spirit with the spirit of a villain we had from before called the Lich King. And Arthas now is pretty much the avatar of the Lich King. They're pretty much one fusion person, as far as anyone knows... (BlizzCon2007)

[Wildmoon]

At his core Arthas was not a good person. He was insecure not unlike Illidan. That's why his moral didn't last all the way through. At some point during the chase for Mal'Ganis, it stopped being about his people but about his quest for vengeance. He hated losing to Mal'Ganis. That was it.

[Deleted]

yeah, its not like he lost his soul before that point or anything
oh wait.

He was a bonifide arrogant prick that only cared about the "greater good" way before he set a foot on Northrend.

[Deleted]

Ner'zhul s intention was to built an army to take revenge on the Legion for torturing and manipulating him.
That was his reason to make the whole world undead to be strong enough to take on the legion.

Now times changed, the people of Azeroth themselves are strong enough to do so and have the same intention in mind: Destroying the burning legion.

So there is just no reason for Ner'zhul anymore to fight against the people who fight against his enemy. In fact he now just has to use them.

Ner'zhul has never been an idiot he was allways cunning and planned way ahead. It is just logical for him not to weakon the forces of azeroth now when the Legion is approaching. So the better way to achieve his goals is to actually support them.

Ner'zhul was in his place in the frozen throne because Kil'jaeden had put him there in order to build an army for the Legion. The Scourge was the Legion army and Ner'zhul was a Legion tool. He was a clever tool and a strong tool and plotted and planned all the while under their nose, but the Scourge wasn't his plan against the Legion. Arthas was his plan against Kil'jaeden. But at no point could he have hoped to use the Scourge against the Legion as a whole and as he was smart enough to know that.

[A dot Ham]

wrong, arthas lost his soul to frostmourne after taking up the blade, basically he never had any moral compass because of it

- - - Updated - - -



this is so incorrect i dont think you've ever even played warcraft 3, everything he did was for his people but he didnt know the price he'd have to pay for using frostmourne and it stole his soul

How you gonna try to tell this guy he is flat out wrong after reading the book.

Even your response here trying to use WC3 as your source suggests you didn't even play the game.

(1) Arthas' moral compass was questionable prior to taking up the sword (See the Culling of Stratholme)
(2) Arthas did pay a price... or rather a price was paid, by Muradin.
(3) The entire frozen throne xpac was about Arthas needing to get back to icecrown or he was going to die, its the spirit of Ner'zhul influencing/manipulating him the entire way.

I think (and someone else who has actually read the book can jump in here) based on my understanding of the events of WC3 that when Arthas put on the actual armor of the Lich King he lost any remnant of himself.

I have seen interesting theories of why he held back his undead army was not so much to lure Azeroth's greatest heroes, but a small remnant of himself still protecting the interests of living folk, and essentially a cry for help (not sure I buy that).

Now why Bolvar is any different from that I can't say... does it have to do with the destruction of Frostmourne? Is it because Bolvar's moral compass was strong prior to armoring himself as the Lich King?

Suffice to say I don't think you, Hellishreaper, are an authority on the subject.

- - - Updated - - -

Ner'zhul s intention was to built an army to take revenge on the Legion for torturing and manipulating him.
That was his reason to make the whole world undead to be strong enough to take on the legion.

Now times changed, the people of Azeroth themselves are strong enough to do so and have the same intention in mind: Destroying the burning legion.

So there is just no reason for Ner'zhul anymore to fight against the people who fight against his enemy. In fact he now just has to use them.

Ner'zhul has never been an idiot he was allways cunning and planned way ahead. It is just logical for him not to weakon the forces of azeroth now when the Legion is approaching. So the better way to achieve his goals is to actually support them.

Where is this info? I would definitely like to see (especially after WoD) how Ner'zhul became the Lich King, the crafting of the armor/frostmoune (or gift I suppose). Seems like there would be a lot of rich story there. (Maybe it'll make into a movie sequel)

[Zulkhan]

he was a paladin lol, are you going to claim he was anything but? if anything his journey tore him down to the point he was willing to sacrifice even his soul if it meant he could save his people

Enough with this bullshit. Arthas did all the awful things he did in Northrend not to save his people but to sate a bloodlust. Sure, that's the justification he gave to himself but there's a reason if later Arthas will claim that the Light "abandoned him" and was foolish having any trust in it. If Arthas was fully convinced that his actions were necessary for his people's sake, he would have never lost his connection to the Light. But deep within he knew that, in truth, he was guided by his hatred alone and wanted Mal'Ganis dead at all costs. When he's in front of Frostmourne he says cut and clear to Muradin that he and the soldiers had just to go fuck themselves since nothing was going to stop him from claim his revenge.

Arthas was not a good person. He was a good-intentioned guy (at first) because he felt the burden of his title and father's judgement, but he was pretty rotten inside. That's why Ner'zhul chose him. Frostmourne's whole task was to suck every bit of softness out of Arthas to elevate the monster within.

you're basically saying someone that watched their family and friends get murdered in front of them and then went on a killing spree before committing suicide was evil before watching their family get killed

You're evil if you consciously and deliberately use and sacrifice other people in your killing spree.

Arthas Abandoned the Light because the Light abandoned him
in the Book there is a Scene when Arthas Horse was injured and needed the Light to be healed, yet the Light didn't answer Arthas Prayer, so he accepted Frostmourn Curse for the Cause of justice

Yeah, and why the Light abandoned him? The Light has no sentient will, is all tied to personal convinction and faith.

The Light abandoned Arthas because Arthas himself doubted the righteousness of his actions, he knew deep within that vengeance was moving his actions, not nobility or justice.

[steelballfc]

Enough with this bullshit. Arthas did all the awful things he did in Northrend not to save his people but to sate a bloodlust. Sure, that's the justification he gave to himself but there's a reason if later Arthas will claim that the Light "abandoned him" and was foolish having any trust in it. If Arthas was fully convinced that his actions were necessary for his people's sake, he would have never lost his connection to the Light. But deep within he knew that, in truth, he was guided by his hatred alone and wanted Mal'Ganis dead at all costs. When he's in front of Frostmourne he says cut and clear to Muradin that he and the soldiers had just to go fuck themselves since nothing was going to stop him from claim his revenge.

Arthas was not a good person. He was a good-intentioned guy (at first) because he felt the burden of his title and father's judgement, but he was pretty rotten inside. That's why Ner'zhul chose him. Frostmourne's whole task was to suck every bit of softness out of Arthas to elevate the monster within.



You're evil if you consciously and deliberately use and sacrifice other people in your killing spree.



Yeah, and why the Light abandoned him? The Light has no sentient will, is all tied to personal convinction and faith.

The Light abandoned Arthas because Arthas himself doubted the righteousness of his actions, he knew deep within that vengeance was moving his actions, not nobility or justice.

The Light has a sentient will
all light Come from the Naru
- yet I agree with you that Vengeance was his moving actions

[Ethenil]

I imagine it's because Arthas took on first Frostmourne for power and revenge, and layer the crown, also for power.

Bolvar took it as an act of sacrifice to become the jailor of the damned.

[Rafoel]

Am I the only one that would do the same as Arthas in Stratholme if I was him?

I mean, what the hell did Uther expect him to do? Cure for curse of undeath doesn't exist! Mal'ganis would indeed turn the whole population of Stratholme into his army. These people were already dead basically.

[Aquamonkey]

The Light has a sentient will
all light Come from the Naru
- yet I agree with you that Vengeance was his moving actions

Light doesn't come from the naaru. Naaru came from the Light.

[Deleted]

Because they're different people.

Not necessarily? I would assume anyone can become the Lich King. The Lich King is the person not Arthas or Bolvar. At least that's what I thought.

[steelballfc]

Light doesn't come from the naaru. Naaru came from the Light.

the light that paladin use come from the naru

[Aquamonkey]

the light that paladin use come from the naru

Naaru taught them about the Light. Light is a cosmic force.

[steelballfc]

Naaru taught them about the Light. Light is a cosmic force.

wait wait wait
isn't Tyr the one who taught Paladin about the Light
and the priests just used the light by praying for whoever god ?!
- and even if the light is cosmic force there was many cases when the light couldn't answer the Call
like in Rise of the Horde Novel

[Mirishka]

Sorry for the Legion spoilers, but Bolvar isn't quite so... benevolent as you're working on the DK artifact stuff. There's a lot of 'YOU SHALL BE MY INSTRUMENT OF DESTRUCTION' type comments that all sound very, very much like a proper Lich King.