No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[SirCowdog]

Serious question... which products are these?

Not that I seek to agree or disagree with the argument as a whole, but other than WoW and Final Fantasy (the former with content drought and the latter which is sooooo slow I can go make a coffee between GCDs) what is there? Unfortunately the MMO scene for PVE folks in general is pretty dead right now :/

I think it's a little presumptuous to say you're not "sane" for playing WoW when there's hardly an alternative for someone who likes endgame PVE raiding gameplay.

MMO style games with decent end-game PVE?

SWTOR (one time $15 sub for permanent access to all expansion content)
GW2 (The paid expansion has raids)
Wildstar (Believe it or not. Some of the most challenging and fun raiding in an RPG)
FFXIV (which you already mentioned)
RIFT (Starting to feel its age, but still has ok end-game)
Elder Scrolls Online (While not so big on raid content, it has very good PVE)
Neverwinter (F2P, but has some raid-style content at end game)
Skyforge (Action RPG with lots of PVE. Not sure about raiding, but it does have group content)
The Secret World (Sorta action RPG, but does have raids)


While none of these are are the exact same level as WoW, they do provide a decent array of alternatives for your MMORPG fix, and generally are not costing the same as WoW. WoW is the clear leader, and sets the bar for quality in the genre when it comes to raid content. It's also still the most popular if you're looking for a 'competitive' raiding scene.

Out of the games I listed, I'd really only consider GW2, FFXIV, and Wildstar to come anywhere near the same quality of raiding content as WoW. However, all the titles have quite a bit of PVE content. SWTOR is the clear winner in the story category, matched closely by FFXIV. In a lot of ways I feel GW2 has better overall gameplay than any other title available right now. The Secret World has some VERY innovative PVE stuff that gets you to do some real brain work, using logic, investigations, and puzzle-solving.

It really all depends on what you're after.

[Deleted]

Serious question... which products are these?

Not that I seek to agree or disagree with the argument as a whole, but other than WoW and Final Fantasy (the former with content drought and the latter which is sooooo slow I can go make a coffee between GCDs) what is there? Unfortunately the MMO scene for PVE folks in general is pretty dead right now :/

I think it's a little presumptuous to say you're not "sane" for playing WoW when there's hardly an alternative for someone who likes endgame PVE raiding gameplay.

Well if you limit your needs to "endgame PvE raiding gameplay" that yes, it is hard to find an alternative. But the average player isn't that limited. In fact, the majority isn't that deep into "endgame PvE raiding gameplay" and WoW normally has a lot more to offer besides raids.

Me personally, i play other games that are not MMORPGs or even RPGs. I play all kind of games in PvP or PvE coop together with people i once met in WoW. I am not strictly limited to one part of a game, nor am i an (as SirCowdog said by needing an MMO fix) MMORPG addict. But even without WoW i don't suffer things like "having fun" or have to miss my friends i use to play together with for many many years now.

Even GW2 is offering more in terms of "content given vs money spend" and it is a way better bang for the buck than WoW is right now. The only two things that i really miss in GW2 is: true open world and mounts, especially the flying mounts...... well and with Legion the transmogsystem will be miles better then GW2's system.

[Leih]

MMO style games with decent end-game PVE?

Oh don't mistake my question for ignorance or WoW whiteknighting... As someone who has tried nearly all of these games... none of them hold a candle to WoW raids, which is a shame, but there really is no game that does it better.

SWTOR I'm still subscribed to, but you'd be having a laugh if anyone were to offer SWTOR as a raiding alternative to WoW. There hasn't been a new raid instance in years. They completely abandoned the idea of new raids/dungeons in the last xpac and made it a single player story game. Which... I mean, I'm having fun with, but I might as well be playing KOTOR in terms of mmo content. It doesn't even let me play the story with my friends!

Wildstar and Rift are practically dead. Rift has gone almost pay to win at this point, populations are horribly low and I it's very dated now... and yeah, good luck getting 40 people raids going consistently in Wildstar. That was hard enough when the game came out, I tried, because I wanted to like that game SO bad, but it never really took off and well, the game is dead now and I can only imagine how difficult it would be to get in and raid now!

GW2 raids were a -massive- disappointment. I was very wary because of the lack of trinity thing... GW2 gameplay is iffy at the best of times... but the end product was below my already low expectations. I've yet to find anyone who actually really liked them :/

ESO I got to max level in... it was a cool story RPG, but the group content wasn't very good because the game's combat systems and engine are pretty lacking. But even if you do like that sort of thing, there's not really that much in the way of challenging endgame group content, certainly not on a large scale like raids.

Neverwinter and Secret World aren't really games you can raid in, and I wouldn't say they offer "more for less" than WoW's PVE content by any stretch. Admittedly, I've never tried skyforge.

The thing is I really wish there was a game that offered interesting, varied endgame raiding with large group content like WoW does, that did it better for less... but there isn't. WoW is still the best I can do in that respect, so I do take objection to someone saying I must be insane for playing it... I'm sorry, but there aren't other games to cater to what I like that do it better than WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

Well if you limit your needs to "endgame PvE raiding gameplay" that yes, it is hard to find an alternative. But the average player isn't that limited. In fact, the majority isn't that deep into "endgame PvE raiding gameplay" and WoW normally has a lot more to offer besides raids.

Me personally, i play other games that are not MMORPGs or even RPGs. I play all kind of games in PvP or PvE coop together with people i once met in WoW. I am not strictly limited to one part of a game, nor am i an (as SirCowdog said by needing an MMO fix) MMORPG addict. But even without WoW i don't suffer things like "having fun" or have to miss my friends i use to play together with for many many years now.

Even GW2 is offering more in terms of "content given vs money spend" and it is a way better bang for the buck than WoW is right now. The only two things that i really miss in GW2 is: true open world and mounts, especially the flying mounts...... well and with Legion the transmogsystem will be miles better then GW2's system.

I'm sure there are other games which can offer fun gameplay that aren't WoW... but as someone who really enjoys large-group (10 or more) PVE content, and the whole gameplay style of MMO raiding, there isn't really a game that offers "more for less" than WoW does. Never really has been and so far (despite trying!) haven't been able to find a replacement.

Like I said above, I think I take exception to you inferring that no sane person would be subscribed to WoW because there's so many other options, when there aren't any options that fit raiding fans like me out there.

It's great that you have fun in other games... I play other games too... but no one else has managed to do raids better yet, even despite WoW's flaws!

[quras]

SNIP.... I refuse to believe that anyone bitching about flying mounts will quit the franchise over being delayed their flying mount.
SNIP...

Refuse to believe all you want but you'd still be wrong.

No flying was one of my top reasons for leaving wow. Over the years I didn't play the game and get flying mounts so blizzard could just take it away in current content because they didn't want to put in the effort to have it or design with it in game. After getting flying and playing wow for so long, there is a time when riding on the ground just isn't entertaining anymore and my God slaying, demon banishing, undead killing, dragon slayer should be immersed in flying his robotic titan head if not his onyxia mount as he heads to more interesting areas of the game and not slog through the old boring parts he killed off when leveling up.

wow travel is bad enough without having to stay grounded till the expansion is worn out and AFK flight paths have sucked since day one encouraging gamers to do anything else but play wow.

Give me the Disney fast pass option please. I'd rather pass y the boring parts and get to the reason I'm out in the world in the first place. My quest. They want to make the quests more interesting and take longer, that would be great. Make the questing amazing but slowing down travel with a rat maze world and ground travel only and then adding in their amazing dismount mechanic was simply FUBAR.

So yea, keep refusing to believe but gamers did and have quit the wow franchise because they couldn't fly at max level in current content. Hell, if anything no flying was just a catalyst when mixed with all the other problems WoD brought.

[Maudib]

WoD is WoW, just not the version you want to play.
Fixed that fix for you.
Do I hold WoW blameless? Blame them for what?
The people on their crusade spouting off useless whining and ridiculous arguements is just too much. An opinion of something is fine, but when you try to state your opinion as fact by pointing out non existent evidence or the lack of evidence as evidence, you are really reaching to make a point that is just not there.

10 million to maybe 3 million subs now? 7 million people quit playing the garbage and you STILL seem to think it's a ridiculous argument?

7 million isn't a few people with oddball opinions... it's a majority.. a VAST majority. And when you have that, it's common sense that something is VERY wrong with the game. This game resembles WoW, but it is NOT WoW anymore. It is not an MMO... ask your bodyguard tank or healer... or the supposed upcoming party of followers that will accompany you on a "mission".

I'm glad you love the game... just realize you are playing a mere shade of what WoW once was... too bad you missed it.

[Deleted]

@ Maudib:

And there will be people believing nothing is wrong or has changed in the world of warcraft. Even IF the numbers would go down to 500k (which Blizz won't tell us). But that is the way they see WoW.
What amazes me more (by far) is people whiteknighting WoW and refuse every critics and obvious flaws til this very day. People on a crusade...... reading this from a person who is on a crusade oh their own. You can read that from people who want flight gone from this game all the time: Flight is only bad and nobody wants or needs that. Strangely they have lost more than half their players after they announced that flight will never come back to current content. Of course this is all coincidence. People left because the game got old.... suddenly.... after 11 years.... Oh and it's all cyclical. But no way in hell there could possibly be far more people enjoying flight than there are people despising it.

[Dhrizzle]

They seem perfectly ok with posting all manner of unfinished content everywhere else, for every other part of the game. And yes, I do want them to at least re-confirm they're putting flight in the expansion so they don't pull another WoD and decide to remove it entirely after a bunch of sales have happened. I want them to keep saying it until it's in the expansion again.

It isn't silly at all when you take into consideration their actions leading up to WoD.

They're not really announcing exactly when patched content will make it into the game, and I get the feeling they're being much quieter about some of their ideas until they're near certain to be implemented.

This is basically where people who want flying are at. WoD took out a great deal of what was fun from the game without replacing it with anything of value. And so many of the arguments put forward by anti-flight people amount to "I don't care about flying so it must be fine." I've been trying, since the first rumors that Blizzard was going to try it, to get people to recognize that for a LOT of people it's not fine. It sucks that it took Blizzard an entire expansion to recognize that it was a bad idea, and is still sticking to the idea of pushing it back as far as possible into Legion.

You're trying to make too much of a distinction between "pro-flying" and "anti-flying" camps. I'm "anti-flight" from the perspective of open-world, level-cap content. I think the daily (Apexis) areas were much more enjoyable for being designed from the perspective of no flying, just like I found the Firelands and Sunwell daily zones to be some of the best in previous expansions.

On the other hand I do like flying just for the pure joy of it, and like to blast through old content with alts as quickly as possible, so from that perspective I'm "pro-flying." I just have no problem with flight being delayed until the end of the expansion (my guess was the pre-patch for the next expansion and for gold, so Pathfinder was a bonus.)

The one I saw was on reddit, which I now can't find(probably because it was wrong). But that's an interesting post. I'm willing to admit that I might have had bad info on this point. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are less dungeons and less raid bosses in WoD, as well as no new race, class, or profession. What we got instead was a selfie patch, and garrison facebook gameplay.

Mostly the size of the area isn't really important anyway. Pandaria is much smaller than Northrend but the higher graphical fidelity means it probably took much more effort to create.

There may be no new race in WoD, but there was a revamp to 10 of the existing races. For all that people hate garrisons, they offered a lot more game-play and took a lot more development than a new profession would, and I can't really see a new profession offering much to the game on top of all the pre-existing ones.

No, I mean exactly what I said. Using 'fun' as a metric when talking about business practices of a game company probably isn't the best idea, because it's far too subjective. There are too many factors which can change people's perceptions, not all of them good.

I just don't look at the development process and think of it in terms of business practices. Every expansion changes some aspect of the game, usually making it more or less convenient in some ways. Dungeons were made easier then harder then easier again. Reputation grinds were vital then important then vital then negligible. Entry-level raiding has been getting easier and easier. I don't look at these changes and think that Blizz are making the game mind-numbingly simple or artificially hard as some nefarious ploy. I judge the game based on how much fun I have playing it. Apart from anything else I don't have enough knowledge of Blizzard's internal workings to judge them on a corporate level.

My points have been that it was a coldly calculated decision to stretch content as much as possible.

And I find that a remarkably silly point. WoD had the least stretched content of all the expansions. TBC and MoP locked heroic dungeons or their currency rewards behind reputation grinds. WotLK and Cataclysm locked head and shoulder enchants behind reputation grinds. All of those expansions stretched 5 man content by offering new tiers of currency rewards as later raids were released, none of them offered such a quick and easy path to raiding as WoD's LFR did. In fact the main criticism of WoD that I can see is content wasn't stretched far enough, 5-mans and daily quests didn't offer enough of a reward and quickly got to the point where they were only worth doing if you enjoy them.

Blizzard isn't being lazy, they're just putting profits ahead of good gameplay and a better product. When I talk about them being under-handed, I'm referring to the massive hype and advertising campaign for WoD which was followed by a sub-par expansion that only BARELY fulfilled the thinnest technical definitions of what they claimed it would be.

Can you show that Blizzard cut back on costs and implemented mechanics with the intention of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions? Do you think with the inevitable backlash and loss of money from cash-shop mounts it really makes sense? To me it sounds like you have a negative subjective opinion and are trying to justify it by inventing objective reasons. Do your criticisms extend to WotLK and the fact they hyped an open PvP zone, aerial dog-fights, an underground zone dedicate to the Nerubians and the Dance Studio?

[tss]

The strong wins over the weak. There's nothing abusive about it. It's how nature works.

strong = doing chores for 2 weeks

[rda]

Can you show that Blizzard cut back on costs and implemented mechanics with the intention of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions?

Expansion legendaries - started in MoP, you have to sub all the way through the expansion to get it.

Garrisons - started in WoD, you have to log in twice a week to get superb rewards.

RNG stats - started in MoP (warforged, etc), you can no longer realistically top your gear, have to keep "trying" all the way till the new tier.

Piling up of difficulty modes on instances similarly to raids - mythic instances and all that, infinite instances in Legion. I'd list challenge modes here, but they were different enough, so, fine, let's not make it worse and say that it starts with mythic instances.

Etc.

All of these things are (a) very easy to do from the development point of view - they are nearly free, and (b) make you sub for longer, you are doing the same content with a twist or two because of rewards. Now, I am not saying that all of these things are bad, that's a different discussion (and I'd say that only most of them are bad, one or two are fine), but the direction is undeniable - do as little as possible, reuse everything 4-5-6 times, space rewards using cooldowns and other things so that people *have* to stay subbed to get them.

--
To put it even more simply:

The old way: we want people to stay subbed, let's release a patch with a couple of instances and a zone.

The new way: we want people to stay subbed, let's make the most powerful bit of gear require you to do something every week.

[Eapoe]

10 million to maybe 3 million subs now? 7 million people quit playing the garbage and you STILL seem to think it's a ridiculous argument?

7 million isn't a few people with oddball opinions... it's a majority.. a VAST majority. And when you have that, it's common sense that something is VERY wrong with the game. This game resembles WoW, but it is NOT WoW anymore. It is not an MMO... ask your bodyguard tank or healer... or the supposed upcoming party of followers that will accompany you on a "mission".

I'm glad you love the game... just realize you are playing a mere shade of what WoW once was... too bad you missed it.

Again, I've played WoW since Wrath, I played at the so called "height" of the game (most subs ever). Last released numbers I saw showed WoW down 5 mil subs with 6 mil still active, so yes, roughly 1/2 the playerbase left. People try to argue it's all flying a fault, that's what is whining and ridiculous. I have continued to enjoy the content, the end.

- - - Updated - - -

@ Maudib:

And there will be people believing nothing is wrong or has changed in the world of warcraft. Even IF the numbers would go down to 500k (which Blizz won't tell us). But that is the way they see WoW.
What amazes me more (by far) is people whiteknighting WoW and refuse every critics and obvious flaws til this very day. People on a crusade...... reading this from a person who is on a crusade oh their own. You can read that from people who want flight gone from this game all the time: Flight is only bad and nobody wants or needs that. Strangely they have lost more than half their players after they announced that flight will never come back to current content. Of course this is all coincidence. People left because the game got old.... suddenly.... after 11 years.... Oh and it's all cyclical. But no way in hell there could possibly be far more people enjoying flight than there are people despising it.

Yes, it is amazing the people who "white knight" Blizzard and say there's absolutely nothing wrong. We aren't talking about that though. We are talking about flight, and somehow the shady dealings of Blizzard. Again though, you talk about more than 1/2 enjoying flight than those without, yet less than 1/2 quit last released number reveal, which shows even if it was all because of flight, more than 1/2 still enjoy the game it is or just don't care about flight compared to the overall game.

- - - Updated - - -

Expansion legendaries - started in MoP, you have to sub all the way through the expansion to get it.

Garrisons - started in WoD, you have to log in twice a week to get superb rewards.

RNG stats - started in MoP (warforged, etc), you can no longer realistically top your gear, have to keep "trying" all the way till the new tier.

Piling up of difficulty modes on instances similarly to raids - mythic instances and all that, infinite instances in Legion. I'd list challenge modes here, but they were different enough, so, fine, let's not make it worse and say that it starts with mythic instances.

Etc.

All of these things are (a) very easy to do from the development point of view - they are nearly free, and (b) make you sub for longer, you are doing the same content with a twist or two because of rewards. Now, I am not saying that all of these things are bad, that's a different discussion (and I'd say that only most of them are bad, one or two are fine), but the direction is undeniable - do as little as possible, reuse everything 4-5-6 times, space rewards using cooldowns and other things so that people *have* to stay subbed to get them.

--
To put it even more simply:

The old way: we want people to stay subbed, let's release a patch with a couple of instances and a zone.

The new way: we want people to stay subbed, let's make the most powerful bit of gear require you to do something every week.

No one is forcing you to stay subbed during all of this. You can easily unsub once you finish a part of the legendary and then resin for the next part, rinse and repeat. Arguably, the best gear in game is always the last raid tier and Blizzard always gives catch up mechanics, so a player could wait until close to the last content patch to play and catch up very close to everyone else in a short time frame. The long, arduous process is to keep players having something to do between patches who would like to keep playing. Everything you pointed out is, to a degree, content, something people have argued more of, yet now you say you want it gone.

[rda]

No one is forcing you to stay subbed during all of this. You can easily unsub once you finish a part of the legendary and then resin for the next part, rinse and repeat. Arguably, the best gear in game is always the last raid tier and Blizzard always gives catch up mechanics, so a player could wait until close to the last content patch to play and catch up very close to everyone else in a short time frame. The long, arduous process is to keep players having something to do between patches who would like to keep playing. Everything you pointed out is, to a degree, content, something people have argued more of, yet now you say you want it gone.

Of course, obviously, no one holding a gun to my head, etc, etc.

It is just that the question was - "Can you show that Blizzard cut back on costs and implemented mechanics with the intention of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions?" - and I was answering that question.

If you mean that what I listed was not made with the intent of having people keep logging in for longer on the cheap, well...

PS: And I am not sure where you get this - "yet now you say you want it gone". This is completely your invention, I said no such thing.

[Dhrizzle]

Expansion legendaries - started in MoP, you have to sub all the way through the expansion to get it.

Garrisons - started in WoD, you have to log in twice a week to get superb rewards.

RNG stats - started in MoP (warforged, etc), you can no longer realistically top your gear, have to keep "trying" all the way till the new tier.

Piling up of difficulty modes on instances similarly to raids - mythic instances and all that, infinite instances in Legion. I'd list challenge modes here, but they were different enough, so, fine, let's not make it worse and say that it starts with mythic instances.

Etc.

All of these things are (a) very easy to do from the development point of view - they are nearly free, and (b) make you sub for longer, you are doing the same content with a twist or two because of rewards. Now, I am not saying that all of these things are bad, that's a different discussion (and I'd say that only most of them are bad, one or two are fine), but the direction is undeniable - do as little as possible, reuse everything 4-5-6 times, space rewards using cooldowns and other things so that people *have* to stay subbed to get them.

--
To put it even more simply:

The old way: we want people to stay subbed, let's release a patch with a couple of instances and a zone.

The new way: we want people to stay subbed, let's make the most powerful bit of gear require you to do something every week.

Now look at WotLK. My raiding warlock and warrior alt were running heroic dungeons for the entire time I played the expansion, over 190 on my main and 150 on my warrior. My warrior came out of that expansion in near-full TotC-level gear with a couple of bits at ICC-level, yet never entered a raid. The way they changed the currencies over the course of the expansion meant you could always go back to those dungeons and work towards a new level of power, and you earned a pitiful amount of the higher-tier currencies.

In Warlords of Draenor my warlock ran each heroic 3 or 4 times and got pretty much the best gear I was going to get. In raid-finder it took 6 or 7 weeks to get the gear I needed and collect the items for the legendary chain. WoD had a much lower incentive for staying subbed and re-running old content than any previous expansion.

This was a double-edged sword for Blizzard. Whilst it was fine for me to do all I wanted and move on to other games, some people want to stay subbed. People liked doing the same content over and over in WotLK. At the time I did too, it's only when I started raiding in Cata that I realised I was sick of the gear treadmill and would rather sub for ~2 month intervals and enjoy other games inbetween.

[Deleted]

Yes, it is amazing the people who "white knight" Blizzard and say there's absolutely nothing wrong. We aren't talking about that though. We are talking about flight, and somehow the shady dealings of Blizzard. Again though, you talk about more than 1/2 enjoying flight than those without, yet less than 1/2 quit last released number reveal, which shows even if it was all because of flight, more than 1/2 still enjoy the game it is or just don't care about flight compared to the overall game.

Well.... thinking half of the players did quit over no flight would be naive, wouldn't it? But on the other side, thinking it's been only a small minority that did quit over no flight would be naive as well. More so: it would be even more naive.

And then you go on by defending the game by saying "only half of the players quit"..... seriously? Not that every loss is bad on it's own, a drop that big in such a short time is not only bad, it is humiliating bad. There is NOTHING good about "other half is playing" (which neither you or me knows). So it still stands that flying, no matter how much you like it or not, is an essential part of their game experience to many players.

If you just look at Blizz being ready to cut flying out of any future content and reverting it in a blink of an eye clearly shows that taking out flight has been the most stupid idea the devs ever had. And that people wanting flight gone are in a very small minority. You can't really count the people that don't care either way, cause they will stay even with flight coming back. So it is save to say that flight coming back to the game rather sooner than later is definitely better for the game. Even the small drop of 100k after they announced flight coming back to the game in Draenor via achievement should give you a hint.

By the way: over the half is still playing? Besides that 95% of all people who once played WoW don#t play it no more, what makes you think that over the half (since WoD start) is still playing? Are you really that delusional to think the numbers didn't drop any further since the last sub-count being announced?
I don't mind that people still like the game, even though i am in the vast majority (95% of all players since release 2004/2005) that don't deem WOW worth the price, neither the purchase nor the monthly fee. And there have been many reasons for people to quit. But no-flight certainly had the biggest impact in a specific timeframe in the games history.

TL;DR: Flight isn't bad for the game and there is nothing good to talk about in the subject of removing flight. Those few people that come here and claim to see more people in the world (ignoring the fact that OVER the half left since WOD start) don't count. They are simply delusional and blind fanbois at best.

[rda]

Now look at WotLK. My raiding warlock and warrior alt were running heroic dungeons for the entire time I played the expansion, over 190 on my main and 150 on my warrior. My warrior came out of that expansion in near-full TotC-level gear with a couple of bits at ICC-level, yet never entered a raid. The way they changed the currencies over the course of the expansion meant you could always go back to those dungeons and work towards a new level of power, and you earned a pitiful amount of the higher-tier currencies.

In Warlords of Draenor my warlock ran each heroic 3 or 4 times and got pretty much the best gear I was going to get. In raid-finder it took 6 or 7 weeks to get the gear I needed and collect the items for the legendary chain. WoD had a much lower incentive for staying subbed and re-running old content than any previous expansion.

This was a double-edged sword for Blizzard. Whilst it was fine for me to do all I wanted and move on to other games, some people want to stay subbed. People liked doing the same content over and over in WotLK. At the time I did too, it's only when I started raiding in Cata that I realised I was sick of the gear treadmill and would rather sub for ~2 month intervals and enjoy other games inbetween.

Look, your question was:

"Can you show that Blizzard cut back on costs and implemented mechanics with the intention of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions?"

I believe I did that.

It'd be useful if you said something like "OK, I see" - or even "no, I disagree", whatever - but don't just jump to something else (and, frankly, I don't see much of a connection).

No one has issues with people wanting to stay subbed. I am saying Blizzard are doing this (luring people into wanting to stay subbed) now mostly by various tricks and heavy reuse of a small amount of content, while before they were doing that by mostly adding new content.

[CheeseSandwich]

Now look at WotLK. My raiding warlock and warrior alt were running heroic dungeons for the entire time I played the expansion, over 190 on my main and 150 on my warrior. My warrior came out of that expansion in near-full TotC-level gear with a couple of bits at ICC-level, yet never entered a raid. The way they changed the currencies over the course of the expansion meant you could always go back to those dungeons and work towards a new level of power, and you earned a pitiful amount of the higher-tier currencies.

In Warlords of Draenor my warlock ran each heroic 3 or 4 times and got pretty much the best gear I was going to get. In raid-finder it took 6 or 7 weeks to get the gear I needed and collect the items for the legendary chain. WoD had a much lower incentive for staying subbed and re-running old content than any previous expansion.

This was a double-edged sword for Blizzard. Whilst it was fine for me to do all I wanted and move on to other games, some people want to stay subbed. People liked doing the same content over and over in WotLK. At the time I did too, it's only when I started raiding in Cata that I realised I was sick of the gear treadmill and would rather sub for ~2 month intervals and enjoy other games inbetween.

They seemed to plan raids to replace the repetitive grind for gear, as shown by the no tier, average LFR gear that was meant to push people into harder modes. They just tried to replace dungeons with raids and kill 2 birds with 1 stone, but don't seem to fully grasp that people like doing stuff in small groups.

In relation to rda's post it is also worth mentioning the weekly events. Cynically, directly designed to draw out sub time. Gone are the days of earning something at your own pace, they have to be held back behind bonus time periods weeks apart. Can't have you getting that 1% mount drop to fast, or earning currency to quickly.

[rda]

In relation to rda's post it is also worth mentioning the weekly events. Cynically, directly designed to draw out sub time. Gone are the days of earning something at your own pace, they have to be held back behind bonus time periods weeks apart. Can't have you getting that 1% mount drop to fast, or earning currency to quickly.

Or another blatant example:

Spreading the release of a raid tier over time.

Before: all raids in a raid tier are released in 1-2 weeks. Now: try 3 months. Obviously, it's for the greater good, yeah, sure. It just so happens that it makes the same content last significantly longer, somehow most of the ideas that "make the game better" that they decide to implement also have them charge for longer while doing less. Obviously, if some great idea in the name of raider's health or whatever was calling for raid tiers to be changed faster or raids to be more numerous, etc, it would have a hard time being implemented - but as soon as there is a trace of an excuse to make something last longer, yeeeeah, sure, they are going to do that.

The list is damn big.

[Dhrizzle]

Look, your question was:

"Can you show that Blizzard cut back on costs and implemented mechanics with the intention of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions?"

I believe I did that.

It'd be useful if you said something like "OK, I see" - or even "no, I disagree", whatever - but don't just jump to something else (and, frankly, I don't see much of a connection).

No one has issues with people wanting to stay subbed. I am saying Blizzard are doing this (luring people into wanting to stay subbed) now mostly by various tricks and heavy reuse of a small amount of content, while before they were doing that by mostly adding new content.

And like I said, in WotLK I ran the same small amount of content for the entire expansion because Blizzard kept increasing the rewards that could be earned. In WoD I was done with the content after a few months because they didn't increase the rewards.

They seemed to plan raids to replace the repetitive grind for gear, as shown by the no tier, average LFR gear that was meant to push people into harder modes. They just tried to replace dungeons with raids and kill 2 birds with 1 stone, but don't seem to fully grasp that people like doing stuff in small groups.

In relation to rda's post it is also worth mentioning the weekly events. Cynically, directly designed to draw out sub time. Gone are the days of earning something at your own pace, they have to be held back behind bonus time periods weeks apart. Can't have you getting that 1% mount drop to fast, or earning currency to quickly.

How is it different from things like the weekly valour-cap, or daily dungeons, or raid lockouts in previous iterations of the game? Blizz have always had massive restriction on how much you can do in a week to draw content out. What about stopping you from raiding Malygos until you have picked up a key from Naxxramas, or keeping you out of BT until you've completed SSC and TK?

If you think Blizz have been using underhanded tactics to keep people subbed in WoD then you must consider them downright evil in earlier expansions with the restrictions and hoops they forced you to jump through for progress.

[rda]

And like I said, in WotLK I ran the same small amount of content for the entire expansion because Blizzard kept increasing the rewards that could be earned. In WoD I was done with the content after a few months because they didn't increase the rewards.

Does the above mean "I disagree that you have shown that Blizzard are cutting back on costs and implementing mechanics with the intention of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions"?

I have a hard time understanding what it is you are trying to say with respect to my answer to your question for the second post now.

[CheeseSandwich]

How is it different from things like the weekly valour-cap, or daily dungeons, or raid lockouts in previous iterations of the game? Blizz have always had massive restriction on how much you can do in a week to draw content out. What about stopping you from raiding Malygos until you have picked up a key from Naxxramas, or keeping you out of BT until you've completed SSC and TK?

If you think Blizz have been using underhanded tactics to keep people subbed in WoD then you must consider them downright evil in earlier expansions with the restrictions and hoops they forced you to jump through for progress.

Because all the events aren't just a weekly lock out. They are spread out over 7 different weekly events, rather than be standard incentives for people to play w/e the fuck they want. Rather than just letting people do extra stuff for extra rewards, they drip feed it out to entice players to remain subbed until the next event.

The restrictions and hoops present in earlier expansions were at the worst weekly lock outs. Not multi week events a player has to wait 6 weeks to do again.

[Dhrizzle]

Does the above mean "I disagree that you have shown that Blizzard are cutting back on costs and implementing mechanics with the intention of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions"?

I have a hard time understanding what it is you are trying to say with respect to my answer to your question for the second post now.

Okay then, I disagree that you have shown that Blizzard are cutting back on costs and implementing mechanics with the intentions of forcing players to sub longer than previous expansions.