The Legion table - Ion's additional response

[SoulSoBreezy]

Dammit Ion, I'm trying to script a quick video insisting that reactions from players and content creators (Belluar and Az) are premature. Then he mirrors much of what I wanted to say:

Some additional thoughts on the concerns that have been raised in this and other threads, loosely paraphrased:

Don't you understand that no one likes missions? Why are you keeping any piece of the system?

We understand that many players are unhappy with garrisons, and in particular with the prominence of follower missions in Warlords of Draenor. We're certainly not sitting around, saying to ourselves, "Wow, everyone loves managing followers and doing missions; let's just copy/paste this feature into our next expansion for an easy win!"

We agree that, especially in the long run, the balance of content and rewards between garrison missions and core world content was a big problem in Draenor. Players too often found themselves without much reason to bother with dungeons or outdoor content, possibly logging on to raid or PvP, and otherwise just checking in to collect mission rewards and send followers out on new ones. And after a little while of that, it's awfully easy for it to stop feeling like a proper MMO experience.

We've tried to tackle this problem throughout our design of Legion. We've focused on replayable and varied outdoor world content and dungeon content as the heart and soul of the Legion endgame, and on reward systems that will support the continued relevance of those systems.

But at the same time, there are people who do enjoy the mission minigame, and there are some positive elements, such as a bit of offline progression, and the fun of looking forward to a reward waiting for you when you get home and log in. Not all aspects of the game are intended to appeal to all players - that's part of the challenge of creating a single game that is played by such a diverse audience with different preferences and playstyles. But while garrison followers and missions were a substantial portion of the content in Warlords, Order Hall missions are probably more like 3% of Legion.

I understand that there is a fair amount of cynicism, and there are some who are probably reading this right now and thinking that it's just a bunch of nice-sounding words trying to cover up our sinister plan of mission-table supremacy. But even if we wanted to, we know that we can’t hide anything here. Well before Legion is in anyone's hands, people will be experiencing the system in its entirety in beta, and we'll be judged on that basis.

But there's key player power at the bottom of my Order Hall tech tree, so isn't that gated behind missions?

Actually, no. As I mentioned in my post in the Alpha forums, what players are seeing in Alpha right now lacks context, admittedly because we haven't provided much. The research you can initiate in your Order Hall to unlock various perks, culminating in a strong player-power reward, requires Order Resources. Order Resources are not in any way gained through missions. You gain Order Resources from quest content: from the one-time Order Campaign quest arc, from treasures around the world, and at max level from outdoor world quests. If anything, missions are more likely to serve as an outlet for excess Resources once you have your research needs covered.

The Order Hall campaign immediately has you do missions that take a day to complete. That sounds terrible.

That's good feedback, and definitely the sort of thing we may adjust. Let me try to explain the intent here: The core of the class Order campaigns is epic quest content that is custom to your class. If you're a Death Knight, you might be working to raise a new set of Four Horsemen who are powerful enough to stand against the Legion; as a Mage, you may be investigating a plot that threatens to undo Dalaran from within; and so forth. That's what the Order campaigns are. We start you on these chains during the level-up experience, but they're intended to be a story that unfolds over time, complementing the game's level-up and endgame progression.

In Warlords, when we had the Garrison campaign quests, we presented a new one each week, but there was no real indication where the next step would come from, or how long you would have to wait in order to continue. This time around, we want to avoid having gaps where there's no quest in your log. Having occasional steps where we ask you to run a few missions with long completion times seemed like a more elegant way to do that, allowing us to weave in a bit of storytelling, as opposed to just "hey, come back next week for the next step."

I understand that most of the discussion is based on bits of information that emerge from the Alpha, and I know that it's difficult to truly reassure you when you haven't yet seen the things I'm talking about firsthand. But hopefully trying to share our goals and philosophies, as well as acknowledging past missteps (we hear you - really!), can provide some guidance about where this system is going to end up when it's complete.

[sololux]

Just a bunch more bullshit. Stop reassuring us that we want something we don't want. Jesus Christ! Fuck these garrison-esque missions and give us missions that we actually go do ourselves! Like with our own character! Like we have to mash the buttons and do the movements! Dropping a square into another square and pressing go is not fun! How hard is this that he has to keep making posts to justify this stupidity!

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I will admit, that is a better response at least and much more in-depth. The former sounded too much like shipyards all over again.

However, I'm still bothered that they feel - what is clearly a niche feature, which only came about within the last expansion - needs to be carried forward. Arguably, this is not smart as they're better off discarding it entirely, now, so that it is no longer expected nor expanded upon in the future for the same niche group. What you're doing is just stretching yourself even further which WoW suffers from as is. It might be a small thing but those small things compound upon themselves until the weight of it all drags you into the ground.

In other words, the game needs more focus on what matters, less on throwing little treats towards a million and one niche gatherings.

Also, the response to this reveal was in no way overstated nor dramatized. People had every right and expectation to freak out when they began to once again, introduce a feature that has aided in just about splintering this game. Seeing it crop up yet again is not something anyone expected and they sure as hell aren't going to sit on their ass and pretend it's not an issue. It very much is an issue. As can be attested to by Ion's need to rebuke and get ahead of this entire debacle.

I for one, am going to ease up a bit and give it some more time. I can always drop the game before it releases if it gets worse after all.

I'm still, personally, quite livid and even more livid toward fellow players who think I didn't have a right to be so. I think they did more damage than Blizzard themselves. One wants to tell me I have no reason to be angry while the other says it understands my anger and attempts to explain itself in an attempt to smooth out ruffled feathers. So which is it?

[Life-Binder]

order campaigns are a 10/10 feature which Im surprised they didnt market heavier, because its fucking amazing all-around



but now Im going to have to level a priest, monk and rogue too

[sololux]

I will admit, that is a better response at least and much more in-depth. The former sounded too much like shipyards all over again.

However, I'm still bothered that they feel - what is clearly a niche feature, which only came about within the last expansion - needs to be carried forward. Arguably, this is not smart as they're better off discarding it entirely, now, so that it is no longer expected nor expanded upon in the future for the same niche group. What you're doing is just stretching yourself even further which WoW suffers from as is. It might be a small thing but those small things compound upon themselves until the weight of it all drags you into the ground.

In other words, the game needs more focus on what matters, less on throwing little treats towards a million and one niche gatherings.

Also, the response to this reveal was in no way overstated nor dramatized. People had every right and expectation to freak out when they began to once again, introduce a feature that has aided in just about splintering this game. Seeing it crop up yet again is not something anyone expected and they sure as hell aren't going to sit on their ass and pretend it's not an issue. It very much is an issue. As can be attested to by Ion's need to rebuke and get ahead of this entire debacle.

I for one, am going to ease up a bit and give it some more time. I can always drop the game before it releases if it gets worse after all.

I'm still, personally, quite livid and even more livid toward fellow players who think I didn't have a right to be so. I think they did more damage than Blizzard themselves. One wants to tell me I have no reason to be angry while the other says it understands my anger and attempts to explain itself in an attempt to soothe ruffled feathers. So which is it?

Come back to this thread when subscriptions tank even further then you tell me which one it was...

[nazrakin]

But there's key player power at the bottom of my Order Hall tech tree, so isn't that gated behind missions?

Actually, no. As I mentioned in my post in the Alpha forums, what players are seeing in Alpha right now lacks context, admittedly because we haven't provided much. The research you can initiate in your Order Hall to unlock various perks, culminating in a strong player-power reward, requires Order Resources. Order Resources are not in any way gained through missions. You gain Order Resources from quest content: from the one-time Order Campaign quest arc, from treasures around the world, and at max level from outdoor world quests. If anything, missions are more likely to serve as an outlet for excess Resources once you have your research needs covered.

I think this is the most important bit. If you can unlock the third relic then theres no reason you have to engage with the mission table.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I will admit, that is a better response at least and much more in-depth. The former sounded too much like shipyards all over again.

However, I'm still bothered that they feel - what is clearly a niche feature, which only came about within the last expansion - needs to be carried forward. Arguably, this is not smart as they're better off discarding it entirely, now, so that it is no longer expected nor expanded upon in the future for the same niche group. What you're doing is just stretching yourself even further which WoW suffers from as is. It might be a small thing but those small things compound upon themselves until the weight of it all drags you into the ground.

In other words, the game needs more focus on what matters, less on throwing little treats towards a million and one niche gatherings.

Also, the response to this reveal was in no way overstated nor dramatized. People had every right and expectation to freak out when they began to once again, introduce a feature that has aided in just about splintering this game. Seeing it crop up yet again is not something anyone expected and they sure as hell aren't going to sit on their ass and pretend it's not an issue. It very much is an issue. As can be attested to by Ion's need to rebuke and get ahead of this entire debacle.

I for one, am going to ease up a bit and give it some more time. I can always drop the game before it releases if it gets worse after all.

I'm still, personally, quite livid and even more livid toward fellow players who think I didn't have a right to be so.

I feel that players' response, while justified, has been premature. My experience on the alpha isn't what Belluar and Az are displaying.
Between order hall missions I was going about leveling like a normal person, doing mining and engineering quests and trying to score as much artifact power as I could.
Heck, harping over the talent tree system has been overexaggerated. It's not gated by missions, only a level requirement. Yes, players need to amass about 16K order hall resources, and the best source for it appears to be from progressing through the order hall campaign, but we don't have max level content to compare this to.

[lightofdawn]

i love this response. it's perfect. i'm glad that blizzard is addressing that they had something to let us know, and i'm glad that this may quiet the unrest about the order halls.

12/10 response. gonna go read it again

[SoulSoBreezy]

I think this is the most important bit. If you can unlock the third relic then theres no reason you have to engage with the mission table.

Correct. The two hard requirements are to earn 16K resources and reach level 110.

[lightofdawn]

Just a bunch more bullshit. Stop reassuring us that we want something we don't want. Jesus Christ! Fuck these garrison-esque missions and give us missions that we actually go do ourselves! Like with our own character! Like we have to mash the buttons and do the movements! Dropping a square into another square and pressing go is not fun! How hard is this that he has to keep making posts to justify this stupidity!

did you even read the response, like at all?

[Rivin]

I think this is the most important bit. If you can unlock the third relic then theres no reason you have to engage with the mission table.

Yeah, it seems like the biggest valid complaint I've seen is that the missions are required to get the third relic slot, making them absolutely mandatory. But this makes it sound like they're completely optional, which is great news.

[Lightwysh]

Just a bunch more bullshit. Stop reassuring us that we want something we don't want. Jesus Christ! Fuck these garrison-esque missions and give us missions that we actually go do ourselves! Like with our own character! Like we have to mash the buttons and do the movements! Dropping a square into another square and pressing go is not fun! How hard is this that he has to keep making posts to justify this stupidity!

What if some of us enjoyed it and want what they are presenting? You claiming its "content no one wants" is childish and self centered.

It sounds like they are taking the general concept of garrison table but making it more interesting, involved and a legitimate source of content.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I feel that players' response, while justified, has been premature. My experience on the alpha isn't what Belluar and Az are displaying.
Between order hall missions I was going about leveling like a normal person, doing mining and engineering quests and trying to score as much artifact power as I could.
Heck, harping over the talent tree system has been overexaggerated. It's not gated by missions, only a level requirement. Yes, players need to amass about 16K order hall resources, and the best source for it appears to be from progressing through the order hall campaign, but we don't have max level content to compare this to.

Well, if they were showing it to be something it is not, that isn't right.

That said, hard not to be cool about something when it feels like your worst fears were just realized. I've been playing WoD just to get prepped for Legion and I cannot tell you how much I hate it. It is most definitely a chore, just about every aspect of it... that said I want a decent amount of gold and progression amassed so that I can have a better time in Legion.

[Deleted]

No third relic gating = completely optional content.

Time to move one to a new non-factual rag... I mean, hot debate.

[sololux]

If you( the developers) have to make daily posts trying to convince millions it will be OK then it's obviously not a selfish and self centered opinion.

[KrazyK923]

I feel that players' response, while justified, has been premature. My experience on the alpha isn't what Belluar and Az are displaying.

What a surprise it's not what they're screaming about.

Because they're yelling out bullshit while throwing temper tantrums.

Watch them all do it exactly the same way again with this new post.

[Deleted]

Well, if they were showing it to be something it is not, that isn't right.

They are showing neither. Just a skeleton of what will be.

[TheFirstOnes]

Just a bunch more bullshit. Stop reassuring us that we want something we don't want. Jesus Christ! Fuck these garrison-esque missions and give us missions that we actually go do ourselves! Like with our own character! Like we have to mash the buttons and do the movements! Dropping a square into another square and pressing go is not fun! How hard is this that he has to keep making posts to justify this stupidity!

You do realize that the order halls are going to be only around 3% of the legion experience..right?

[Vynestra]

People just bitch about everything these days, I swear.

The new system is definitely different, they've been saying it since fricken Gamescom, and people want to take apart the small parts of the table that ARE IN, dissect them, and make it into something it isn't.

Simple as that, people overreacting over nothing.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Well, if they were showing it to be something it is not, that isn't right.

That said, hard not to be cool about something when it feels like your worst fears were just realized. I've been playing WoD just to get prepped for Legion and I cannot tell you how much I hate it. It is most definitely a chore, just about every aspect of it... that said I want a decent amount of gold and progression amassed so that I can have a better time in Legion.

Not all the information is given. I can't blame them - they're pressured to put out quality content quickly so it's more difficult to give a balanced analysis as opposed to a reaction piece. This is my advantage as a very small channel =).
I'm still convinced that the fears here are also a bit off course. I think the concern isn't about the table, but that the table will be better than being outside. It's a fear of the symptom, not the actual problem of WoD.