[MARKSMANSHIP]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Azortharion]

Marksmanship on Alpha has an APM of about 40 right now when played correctly. Lot of room for improvement there, new spec.

Marksmanship on live has about 10% more depending on the fight. My rank 1 Archi is a 44 APM. Not as much room for improvement.

So even with the GCD bullshit the sky is falling over because the spec is oh so slow, it's still only ~10% "slower" than Marksmanship is on live, and keep in mind that Marksmanship on live has 4pc going for it and shit like that.

[construkt]

Not sure why you're carrying the assumption that if something happens that suggests that there is poor design within spec that it's only the player that is the problem and not the spec. I'll sit on a dummy for quite some time and there will be points that Marked for Death just falls off. I'm using Windburst to mediate the RNG, which is an obvious thing to do, but still there are periods where the debuff just falls off unless I were to focus cap myself spamming Arcane Shots. Then there's True Aim, which is entirely dominant now with the big Lone Wolf nerf. Single target tunneling is promoted by design. There isn't intrinsic incentive to maximize multi-target damage, it's all very vague. Not what you should do, as theorycrafting will dictate that, but how the spec is intended to be played is very vague. We don't have those problems on live. That is why these changes feel terrible.

Furthermore, it's not the fact that a debuff can fall off that is the problem. The problem is that there's no interesting mechanics within the spec. You hammer down your rotation and there is nothing to really watch for or react to. There aren't any stat interactions. At least on live there are some stats to balance to modify gameplay. In the current Alpha iteration, haste stacking is the only thing that modifies anything at all. Everything feels really passive and boring.

Playing the spec just feels clunky. It doesn't flow well. Adding targets just means you switch to multi-shot... it's boring.

[Youn]

Looking over the 4 hunters from the raid testing earlier on Mythic Nythendra.

Hunter 1: Specced: 1-2-1-3-1-1-2 - 205k dps average
Hunter 2: Specced: 1-1-1-3-1-1-2 - 197k dps average
Hunter 3: Specced: 3-1-1-3-1-2-2 - 179k dps average (Wolf was 1.96%)
Hunter 4: Specced: 1-3-1-3-1-2-2 - 182k dps average

That was over 14 fights. None of them reached more then the half way point.

[Bepples]

2.5 sec GCD in FFXIV? isn't it boring as hell? oO

It absolutely is. The game is unbelievably slow. It also has some weird ability queueing so if you get cocky and click two cooldowns in quick succession, the game will not cast either of them. The archer class (Bard) in that game has something like 5 cooldowns, all of which are on the GCD. It is a complete mess and sucks to play; it really makes you appreciate the combat fluidity of WoW when you see it so badly butchered in a different MMO.

It's pretty incredible that KrayZee actually used that as an example of long GCDs not being a big deal. It's the perfect example of why long GCDs suck.

Funnily enough, a similar thing happened to Bards in regards to mobility; before 3.0 (Heavensward) Bards had full mobility. After 3.0 they added an ability called "Wanderer's Minuet" which adds 1.5 sec cast times to all your abilities, increases their damage by 30% and takes away auto attack. You are pretty much forced to use it at all times due to the DPS gain.

You saw a lot of the same arguments and even a lot of the same excuses from it's supporters:
- "Bard can now do competent damage! We did less damage before to account for mobility."
- "We just have to live with the changes. Playstyle changes happen; deal with it."
- "I think it provides an interesting dynamic."
- "You still have a choice to not use it."

None of these excuses hold up to scrutiny. Mobility classes do competent damage on fights that require more movement (duh). Bad game design should NEVER be merely accepted because "shit happens". There is hardly anything interesting about it; just leave it on all the time and never move unless you absolutely have to. It is NOT a choice since not using it is a massive DPS loss that will get you sat in any raid.

I don't know why people can't just leave mobile ranged DPS the fuck alone. Yes, we can move while DPSing. As a result, we do less DPS. We are one of the only specs that fills that niche. When ALL the other classes are immobile ranged DPS, what is the logic in adding in another one at the expense of a mobile DPS? If you wan't to play like a mage and apparently fast GCDs are just too much for you, play a fucking mage instead. Don't kill off the playstyle that the rest of us enjoy.

[Deleted]

Looking over the 4 hunters from the raid testing earlier on Mythic Nythendra.

Hunter 1: Specced: 1-2-1-3-1-1-2 - 205k dps average
Hunter 2: Specced: 1-1-1-3-1-1-2 - 197k dps average
Hunter 3: Specced: 3-1-1-3-1-2-2 - 179k dps average (Wolf was 1.96%)
Hunter 4: Specced: 1-3-1-3-1-2-2 - 182k dps average

That was over 14 fights. None of them reached more then the half way point.

Hunters were by far the weakest DPS class today, but I guess you already knew that. It's just pretty funny seeing Blizzard balancing at work. From hero to zero. Mages, Spriests and Boomers consistently pulled over 300k on Nythendra, and the latter two even more on Ursoc due to multidotting.

In before someone yells BUT BUT balancing isn't final. Yeah, it's never final. It can still suck.

[Bepples]

Furthermore, it's not the fact that a debuff can fall off that is the problem. The problem is that there's no interesting mechanics within the spec. You hammer down your rotation and there is nothing to really watch for or react to. There aren't any stat interactions. At least on live there are some stats to balance to modify gameplay. In the current Alpha iteration, haste stacking is the only thing that modifies anything at all. Everything feels really passive and boring.

It's worse than that. Buffs like Marked for Death and True Aim actively punish more reactive gameplay and encourage gluing yourself to one target for the entire fight. You can get rid of True Aim (at a considerable loss) but you are stuck with Marked for Death. Saying that there is ANY skill in this debuff is like arguing that there is skill in Serpent Sting on live. At least sometimes you would have to arcane shot a far-away target to apply Serpent Sting.... for Marked for Death you just switch to multi-shot/make sure Sidewinders hits everything and cast Marked Shot (which, by the way, removes Tue Aim). Marked for Death truly adds nothing but ramp-up times.

I do think that there is a stat interaction with Haste at least since it reduces the CD of Sidewinders, increases the RPPM of Hunter's Mark, reduces the cast time of Aimed Shot and reduces the GCD. I can't really say the same about any other stats. Our mastery is pretty laughable since it's basically a % damage increase with no extra effect on gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

Looking over the 4 hunters from the raid testing earlier on Mythic Nythendra.

Hunter 1: Specced: 1-2-1-3-1-1-2 - 205k dps average
Hunter 2: Specced: 1-1-1-3-1-1-2 - 197k dps average
Hunter 3: Specced: 3-1-1-3-1-2-2 - 179k dps average (Wolf was 1.96%)
Hunter 4: Specced: 1-3-1-3-1-2-2 - 182k dps average

That was over 14 fights. None of them reached more then the half way point.

No one picked Sidewinders?

The level 90 tier is also an odd one for me. All the choices have quite high focus costs. I don't really see what Barrage and Volley will do for you while your AoE will mostly be comprised of Marked Shot cleave. I guess Crows will be a decent ST cooldown.

It's also looking to me like Trick Shot will be the clear choice in the level 30 tier. It will work amazingly with the multi-shot legendary at least. I do actually like the idea of Aimed Shot cleave (even if I hate the current Aimed Shot design). I've heard pretty bad things about both Explosive Shot and Black Arrow.

Also, maybe this is just me being naive, but does Farstrider have a chance at all? I do like the idea of frequent disengages but I don't know how reliable the talent will be in practice.

[Youn]

Well, I was just analyzing the logs from the stream that I was watching. And since there was 4 hunters each with slightly different marksman specs. I figured it would be a good example to display the differences. I find it odd that the one using pet did the least and the one using Black arrow did the most.

Marksman's pets are pure crap.

[Deleted]

It's pretty incredible that KrayZee actually used that as an example of long GCDs not being a big deal. It's the perfect example of why long GCDs suck.

Yes the 2,5s is too long, but it's still not slow that you get bored, because unlike WoW, you have oGCD abilities and for pretty much every GCD, you need to weave in a oGCD ability. You also have to flank and move around the enemy and all that.

1.5 GCD is how it was for years for hunters... the 1.0 GCD is "new" and now we are back to the old style, with the exception that we can reduce it with haste, which was not possible back then.
The GCD issue is really not worth discussing, especially when you are the one complaining about the fact that the spec is less mobile in general. Casttimes don't work with 1.0 GCDs anyway. That's basically all I'm saying.

And you said it's the objective truth, when it's an opinion, which is not objective at all....

[Azortharion]

Hunters were by far the weakest DPS class today, but I guess you already knew that. It's just pretty funny seeing Blizzard balancing at work. From hero to zero. Mages, Spriests and Boomers consistently pulled over 300k on Nythendra, and the latter two even more on Ursoc due to multidotting.

In before someone yells BUT BUT balancing isn't final. Yeah, it's never final. It can still suck.

ROFL? Hunters, while not the best, were absolutely not the weakest DPS class. Jesus christ. -I- consistently pulled over 300-350k on Nythendra, all it took was me actually getting benefit of Marked for Death. Granted, I got tryhard gear on with sockets, but so did other good classes.

[Deleted]

ROFL? Hunters, while not the best, were absolutely not the weakest DPS class. Jesus christ. -I- consistently pulled over 300-350k on Nythendra, all it took was me actually getting benefit of Marked for Death.

Ye. We get it. You're "special". In more ways than one.

Hunters were the weakest class yesterday on avg for both bosses based on our testing and we had 4 Hunters rotate. What you did or didn't do is really irrelevant to my statement. I truly don't know what you're even doing in a balance and design discussion, when your every response to bad design or bad tuning is "Well, HUEHUEHUHU, I'm still the best player in my guild. You guys must suck!" Your anecdotes aren't any more real or to be taken seriously than anyone else's in this thread.

[Azortharion]

Not what I am trying to convey at all. To say that hunters were by far the worst DPS class is an enormous exaggeration. Judging by Youn's post which indicated 4 independent hunters running shitty talents, I can't say it's surprising that you'd find this out. Maybe people are just shit, but why would hunters be extraordinarily shit at adapting to new mechanics compared to other classes?

But good job trying to make the argument into something that it isn't.

[Deleted]

Not what I am trying to convey at all. To say that hunters were by far the worst DPS class is an enormous exaggeration. Judging by Youn's post which indicated 4 independent hunters running shitty talents, I can't say it's surprising that you'd find this out. Maybe people are just shit, but why would hunters be extraordinarily shit at adapting to new mechanics compared to other classes?

But good job trying to make the argument into something that it isn't.

You've brought up your own play a number of times already on this very page. And even more often than you mention yourself, you mention that other people suck. It really doesn't take much to decrypt your messages. Especially ones that start with ROFL, and continue with =I=.

[Azortharion]

If Hunters were "by far" the weakest class, then it doesn't matter how good you are, you'll still be shit. No matter how good you are at Survival on live, you'll still be bottom or close to it. If Marksmanship on Alpha yesterday was "by far" the weakest DPS, then it's hard to imagine anyone being higher than mid-field with that class, and yet you'll find several logs of people that do. I was 2nd on DPS for both tests combined, I have tryhard gear, discount the tryhard gear and we're talking maybe 5th. Other hunter in my guild was close, doesn't have tryhard gear at all. Hunters are also topping add damage on Ursoc with just mediocre play. To say that they are by far the worst is incredibly far-fetched, and you would indeed have to be extraordinarily bad to pull results off that are worse than anything else.

The -I- was in reference to you pointing out how boomkins etc were doing lots of DPS (300k+), my point being that I achieved that, so did the other Hunter. Clearly, Hunters aren't the worst, and absolutely not "by far".

I'd like to see a log of yours where you're the worst.

[Youn]

What spec choices are you running that you're doing on average more then 100k more then those four hunters? I will tell you now that I know hunter four was messing up his rotation because he said so on the stream. He started by not using Windburst at all. Then when he noticed it actually does competitive damage he tried adding it into his rotation but kept forgetting about it. Which meant he was playing around with an unfamiliar rotation and dealing with mechanics at the same time.

And none of those 4 hunters were bottom of the pack. On average you would find them in 5-9th spot. With 2 shadow priests on top, followed by 2 boomkins.

Also, it should be noted if some of the better hunters (assuming people that can do 13/13M are at least competent) are finding the nerfs excessive. Then exactly what is going to happen to those players that are in the not so great category. I don't want hunter to be the class you sit to make room for more priests or druids.

[Azortharion]

Lone Wolf
Explosive Shot (both bosses)
Patient Sniper
Barrage for Ursoc, Crows for Nythendra
Sidewinders

[Youn]

Based on that, Arcane shot and Multi-shots damage needs to go up some and the tier with patient sniper needs to be reworked slightly. Also the hunters mark bug needs to be fixed.

[Deleted]

I'm new to MM, can someone sum up the playstyle? You use Marked Shot anytime it procs and try to keep up MFD buff? Or do you try to get as many Aimed Shots out as possible by waiting for almost full focus until Marked Shot?

[Youn]

As far as I can figure it looks as follows:

1. Marked Shot if Hunters Mark/Deadeye debuff on target (Debuff will fall off target after this)
2. Aimed Shot if you have Focus
3. Headshot if off CD and not specced Sidewinders.
4. Windburst if off CD (optional)
5. Barrage if 3 or more targets (Crows if talented instead on CD)
6. Sidewinders if off CD and need focus (Arcane shot/Multi-shot if specced Headshot) (Note: this will put up debuff from 1)

[Azortharion]

No.

• Use Marked Shot whenever available. This applies Deadeye for 8 seconds.
• Use 3 Aimed Shots within the Deadeye.
• Use Windburst on cooldown, in some situations you may wanna game its usage because if you're not at the 2nd hastecap (8s sidewinder), you can use Windburst to ensure Deadeye overlap with Marked Shots that you otherwise couldn't because the debuff would run off first. For this reason you also precast Windburst to ensure that the first Marked Shot has Deadeye overlap.

[Deleted]

A powerful aimed shot that deals 250%185% Physical damage.

They should remove this part. How it can be powerful and at same time HeadShot is powerful too, but the dmg is 3x++++ bigger than the aimed.