Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Lolsteak]

Dispels (rather than debuffs) today still cost a lot of mana. And in fights like Socrethar the dispelling is a necessary part of the fight, and if the caster adds don't get controlled, the debuff spamming from the caster adds can get quite out of hand, as you (as in, all the healers) won't be able to keep up with the dispelling.

Aye but as you said there's a CD, That inherently limits the amount of mana you can spend on it in any given time (Not saying it's a tiny amount of mana however)

In Vanilla it was basically spam decursive until everything is gone, I really did chew through mana at times

It doesn't make much sense, either. You're describing something that is almost akin to a random pug group, or worse, a LFR group, in terms of variance of player skill.

It was just a fact for the servers I was on that you had a mix of players with varying skill levels in the group, There was difficulties in getting geared people to join the guild for AQ/Naxx and the vetting process was pretty much "What's your furthest boss kill", It didn't take into account player capabilities / logs etc.

If you're going to compare organized raiding, compare similarly assembled groups: assume the whole group being being experienced raiders, or, at the very least, the great majority of the group being experienced raiders.

For the most part I've always joined "Friends & Family" type guilds (I did do some strict heroic raiding in Cata, however) so I was comparing my experiences in Vanilla and current. I'd say it's even easier now more so due to the fact that if you fuck up now over half the raid will likely have an ability to compensate, In Vanilla Classes were far more unique in their abilities which restricted things when you needed them.

[bluspacecow]

https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/72...996032?lang=en
https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/72...725185?lang=en

Left on his own due to exhaustion

These statements are contradicted by interviews done in 2006 who said he left to form Red 5 Studios :

http://www.shacknews.com/article/466...dios-mark-kern
http://www.edery.org/interview-with-mark-kern-red5/

Sounds like a bit of revisionist history to me.

[Dacien]

These statements are contradicted by interviews done in 2006 who said he left to form Red 5 Studios :

http://www.shacknews.com/article/466...dios-mark-kern
http://www.edery.org/interview-with-mark-kern-red5/

Sounds like a bit of revisionist history to me.

Maybe it was a bit from column A, a bit from column B. He was burned out with WoW, wanted to try his own thing.

Either way, I'm excited for tomorrow. I would absolutely roll on a sanctioned legacy server. I hope this week brings good news for legacy fans.

[Reapocalypse]

Maybe it was a bit from column A, a bit from column B. He was burned out with WoW, wanted to try his own thing.

Either way, I'm excited for tomorrow. I would absolutely roll on a sanctioned legacy server. I hope this week brings good news for legacy fans.

Him being burnt out from WoW would fit his description of his work put into this project after he convinced them, still its weird that he says that he thought he didnt want to do Games anymore when he just starts another games-studio right after leaving.

https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/724387590548250624

Its really hard to guess Mike Morhaime's reaction, from what i have read about him he seems kinda passionate about things, he keeps Starcraft and other old Games running after all but then again, he is the CEO of the Company alot of poeple learned to hate for their greedyness.

I dont see "them" just ignoring it anymore but im very undecided if i should expect a "ty but no" or maybe even a clear yes with plans for the future, either way im still happy that the wait will be over soon.

[Deleted]

Aye but as you said there's a CD, That inherently limits the amount of mana you can spend on it in any given time (Not saying it's a tiny amount of mana however)

In Vanilla it was basically spam decursive until everything is gone, I really did chew through mana at times


It was just a fact for the servers I was on that you had a mix of players with varying skill levels in the group, There was difficulties in getting geared people to join the guild for AQ/Naxx and the vetting process was pretty much "What's your furthest boss kill", It didn't take into account player capabilities / logs etc.


For the most part I've always joined "Friends & Family" type guilds (I did do some strict heroic raiding in Cata, however) so I was comparing my experiences in Vanilla and current. I'd say it's even easier now more so due to the fact that if you fuck up now over half the raid will likely have an ability to compensate, In Vanilla Classes were far more unique in their abilities which restricted things when you needed them.

I am not sure what raids you've done, sounds like normal, but you try to do Mythic raiding with one poor person in the guild and you are going to have an awful time. They might not screw up everytime, but good luck trying to beat Mythic Gorefiend with a person who doesn't deal with the mechanics properly. There's no saving the raid if one person screws up, unless you vastly over gear the content.

Normal raiding isn't exactly that difficult, raids are better now there's no way around it. 40 man raids were always a mess, gearing up the guild took way longer and in the current day it wouldn't work.

Vanilla raids took a lot of organization skills, nowaday you have all these tools to vet your applicants that getting those boss kills aren't that difficult. Often for me it seemed like over half the "challenge" was getting 40 man raid together. I am not exactly sure how anyone could miss the raiding from vanilla except for maybe the atmosphere. Everything else was complete shiat. I fell asleep in a few of my molten core raids back in the day, that's how thrilled I was with those.

[ls-]

I dont see "them" just ignoring it anymore but im very undecided if i should expect a "ty but no" or maybe even a clear yes with plans for the future, either way im still happy that the wait will be over soon.

TBH, I see them saying "no, we see no profit there" And it won't end, during blizzcon there once again will be someone who'll ask the very same question. And after Legion is released there'll be new threads about legacy realms. It'll never end T_T Vanilla phenomenon's been around since TBC pre-patch...

[Charge me Doctor]

Aye but as you said there's a CD, That inherently limits the amount of mana you can spend on it in any given time (Not saying it's a tiny amount of mana however)

In Vanilla it was basically spam decursive until everything is gone, I really did chew through mana at times

Correct me if i'm wrong, but if you was a paladin you had no issues with mana for cleansing (it costs literally nothing, like, 5% of base mana, and paladins had shitty base mana pool and huge amount of int off their blue BiS gear (because epics didn't had any int lololol itemization in vanilla)). Also there were some talents that reduce the mana cost even further, and there was libram from AQ that reduce cleanse cost to basically zero (obvious overestimation it was about 200 mana iirc, still really easy to manage when you run with about 6-8k mana depending on gear and buffs).

[Lolsteak]

I am not sure what raids you've done, sounds like normal.

All difficulties, I haven't finished WoD raids on Mythic however.

I really don't have the patience to do the raids 3 times.. Hell I don't even have the patience to do the raids on two difficulties nowadays, I honestly prefer the old style raids without the right clicking portrait to set difficulty bullshit (I'd love for some more Ulduar style encounters though, I loved the idea of activating the hardmodes through the fight).

Normal raiding isn't exactly that difficult, raids are better now there's no way around it. 40 man raids were always a mess, gearing up the guild took way longer and in the current day it wouldn't work.

It would need some attention I agree but the current method of abandoning every previous raid and including ways to catchup in ilvl really increases how quickly content is phased out, It's not good for the game as a whole.

I am not exactly sure how anyone could miss the raiding from vanilla except for maybe the atmosphere. Everything else was complete shiat. I fell asleep in a few of my molten core raids back in the day, that's how thrilled I was with those.

It really was the atmosphere for me, We had a lot of banter in chat which took away most of the tedium. It was also surprisingly fun teasing people who were after certain items which refused to drop (T2 shoulders never dropped for me in fact, rip).

Aside from progression we were always messing around in the farm runs, Pissing off my class leader by DPSing as Holy on trash.. Using the Piccolo of the Flaming Fire while the entire group was stacked up after Garr (I actually can't remember why we were stacked up, Some tactic or whatever). It really just boils down to having fun and not chasing epics.

[Deleted]

Ok lets half the amount of guilds who have killed Mythic Archi in NA to account for 20M

200+.. Still ten times that of Naxx 40


Indeed, However you going by the World First it was still a much much longer time before it was cleared, 154 days for WF Ragnaros, 90 Days until WF Kel'Thuzad and 32 or so for Mythic Archi?


The encounters are still being completed in far less time and I do agree that buffs etc increase that speed, I don't like how ilvl has inflated so much.


That's really one of the issues with current WoW, The pacing of the expansions is ridiculous when you have a burst of content at the beginning and a drought at the end, I really didn't get far in Sunwell either (Killed Eredar Twins near the end of expac).

I might be going a bit off-topic but I still preferred Vanilla / TBC raids due to the pacing that came with them, Sure they weren't as graphically intensive as current raids and had less mechanics but they made up with that in the raid size and amount you had per expansion, But yeah I do think Naxx & SWP could have been out longer

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Possibly, I take it all with a grain of salt however.

Kungen has some chill streams and some cancer streams and anywhere inbetween and I don't watch Soda at all tbh, Still they're the opinions of single people and I take whatever they say as such, They're just somewhat louder than the average person.

Vanilla had an insanely slow gearing process and extremely attunement heavy process, + that you needed bits and pieces from every raid.

No wonder it took so much longer, it was heavily gated and more so by 40 ppl needing gear.

And that is honestly sh't. The fact that you had to grind for months to find your few pieces is what D3 was at launch.

Shit.

[Lolsteak]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but if you was a paladin you had no issues with mana for cleansing (it costs literally nothing, like, 5% of base mana

Think it was 8%? something like that

and paladins had shitty base mana pool and huge amount of int off their blue BiS gear (because epics didn't had any int lololol itemization in vanilla)).

Think I was using the 5 set Judgement, Rest AQ, Mace from Nef and Shield from Rag (Vael shield wouldn't drop :/ )

Also there were some talents that reduce the mana cost even further, and there was libram from AQ that reduce cleanse cost to basically zero (obvious overestimation it was about 200 mana iirc, still really easy to manage when you run with about 6-8k mana depending on gear and buffs).

I also vaguely remember having around 7k mana or, Giving what.. about 3% buffed mana cost?, Still in a 40 man raid there were quite a few people to dispell at times, The cost added up.

[Deleted]

All difficulties, I haven't finished WoD raids on Mythic however.

I really don't have the patience to do the raids 3 times.. Hell I don't even have the patience to do the raids on two difficulties nowadays, I honestly prefer the old style raids without the right clicking portrait to set difficulty bullshit (I'd love for some more Ulduar style encounters though, I loved the idea of activating the hardmodes through the fight).


It would need some attention I agree but the current method of abandoning every previous raid and including ways to catchup in ilvl really increases how quickly content is phased out, It's not good for the game as a whole.


It really was the atmosphere for me, We had a lot of banter in chat which took away most of the tedium. It was also surprisingly fun teasing people who were after certain items which refused to drop (T2 shoulders never dropped for me in fact, rip).

Aside from progression we were always messing around in the farm runs, Pissing off my class leader by DPSing as Holy on trash.. Using the Piccolo of the Flaming Fire while the entire group was stacked up after Garr (I actually can't remember why we were stacked up, Some tactic or whatever). It really just boils down to having fun and not chasing epics.

And you can't dick about in current content?

Seems like nostalgia and selective thinking to me.

[Lolsteak]

Vanilla had an insanely slow gearing process and extremely attunement heavy process, + that you needed bits and pieces from every raid.

No wonder it took so much longer, it was heavily gated and more so by 40 ppl needing gear.

And that is honestly sh't. The fact that you had to grind for months to find your few pieces is what D3 was at launch.

Shit.

I mean.. your opinion is your opinion.. the numbers really disagree though.

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And you can't dick about in current content?

Seems like nostalgia and selective thinking to me.

The pacing of newer content ruins it for me, That coupled with the fact you're running the same thing again and again and again just right clicking your name to change the difficulty.

[Deleted]

I kinda liked Warlords.

I had to quit due to unforseen circumstances and just never felt like coming back when that finished up. If they had WotLK/TBC/Classic servers or some kind of progression on them of old versions, I'd defo come back - that isn't to say I wouldn't play the new version, I would it'd just give me something to do when I'm bored or on off days.

[Deleted]

I mean.. your opinion is your opinion.. the numbers really disagree though.

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The pacing of newer content ruins it for me, That coupled with the fact you're running the same thing again and again and again just right clicking your name to change the difficulty.

Opinions? How the f'ck is math of drop rates and loot distribution upon 40 people, opinion?

Loot distribution was insanely high during Wrath, and the accesability was _even higher_ than it is today, with LFR rolling in and HC ICC being about for about a year, the first time that happened.

That's when WoW was about it's highest, higher than vanilla. So, yeah, no co-relation.

Also, the UI of a drop down to change difficulty, ruins your day? Give me a break, man

[Lolsteak]

Opinions? How the f'ck is math of drop rates and loot distribution upon 40 people, opinion?

And that is honestly sh't. The fact that you had to grind for months to find your few pieces is what D3 was at launch.

Shit.

Also, the UI of a drop down to change difficulty, ruins your day?

Indeed, Because immersion counts for some people. As I've previously written I really enjoyed the method of activating hardmodes in Ulduar.

Give me a break, man

There's honestly no need to get so worked up

[Jokerfiend]

Opinions? How the f'ck is math of drop rates and loot distribution upon 40 people, opinion?

Loot distribution was insanely high during Wrath, and the accesability was _even higher_ than it is today, with LFR rolling in and HC ICC being about for about a year, the first time that happened.

That's when WoW was about it's highest, higher than vanilla. So, yeah, no co-relation.

Also, the UI of a drop down to change difficulty, ruins your day? Give me a break, man

It was hell, but that's part of the charm of it.

You never knew what was going to drop. It could set pieces all week, it could be off pieces. It could be druid week, or rogue. I mean, I went personally from half and half to full epic in one week, a very lucky week, in Vanilla.

All of it together was the game. But when you have all of these extra amenities, like fast mounts, flying, and such. You cannot take them away. It's like forcing you to ride a horse all the time, after you have driven everywhere. When all you had was the horse, nothing as better and you dealt with it. But now that the car is unleashed, you will want that car.

Now that you have that car, you want a better one, or a flashier one. This is what happens as technology increases, QOL changes what people feel they want.

Even at the advent of the tractor, you know there was still the guy with plow. Shit, people CHOOSE to live without the extra amenities life has to offer now. Sorry, I am the Amish of the WoW community.

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Indeed, Because immersion counts for some people. As I've previously written I really enjoyed the method of activating hardmodes in Ulduar.


There's honestly no need to get so worked up

Blizzard has admitted that implementing hardmodes will never happen again. It was too much work and too hard to do. Which is a pretty much direct quote.

[Lolsteak]

Blizzard has admitted that implementing hardmodes will never happen again. It was too much work and too hard to do. Which is a pretty much direct quote.

I don't disagree it would have been a hefty amount of work to implement in all raids, It did feel really enjoyable to me though.. I think by the time I stopped raiding Ulduar I had 30+ kills on the bosses and I still enjoy the raid now, To me the way the hardmodes were activated felt more natural and gave players greater interaction with the fight.

I may very well be in the minority but I'd love for raids to be less graphically intense (Is that even the right way to describe it?). The raid zones look absolutely amazing, That's got to take a fair chunk of time to design and flesh out compared to the older raids which still looked good but were far from todays standard.

Less manpower spent on designing and fleshing out the raid zones and more spent on Ulduar style fights would be my ideal game I guess, Won't happen but I can dream.

I can't remember exactly but Molten Core was partially created or something, Almost scrapped then finished in a week.. A stark contrast to todays raids.. The art team really outdo themselves nowadays.

Might be due to reusing art assets, Feels like a sizable chunk of some Vanilla raid zone objects were reused from other zones like ZG and all the troll things, Still miss old ZG.. Might be bias because I won 2 zulian tigers though.

[Eapoe]

I don't disagree it would have been a hefty amount of work to implement in all raids, It did feel really enjoyable to me though.. I think by the time I stopped raiding Ulduar I had 30+ kills on the bosses and I still enjoy the raid now, To me the way the hardmodes were activated felt more natural and gave players greater interaction with the fight.

I may very well be in the minority but I'd love for raids to be less graphically intense (Is that even the right way to describe it?). The raid zones look absolutely amazing, That's got to take a fair chunk of time to design and flesh out compared to the older raids which still looked good but were far from todays standard.

Less manpower spent on designing and fleshing out the raid zones and more spent on Ulduar style fights would be my ideal game I guess, Won't happen but I can dream.

I can't remember exactly but Molten Core was partially created or something, Almost scrapped then finished in a week.. A stark contrast to todays raids.. The art team really outdo themselves nowadays.

Might be due to reusing art assets, Feels like a sizable chunk of some Vanilla raid zone objects were reused from other zones like ZG and all the troll things, Still miss old ZG.. Might be bias because I won 2 zulian tigers though.

A little bit more expanded on Blizzards reasoning is also that they admitted in a post about Ulduar that while they had fun doing it and are proud of how it turned out, designing boss fights like that (normal fight where you do something specific to make it "hard mode") would be too challenging to keep coming up with new things and bosses would lose some of the idenity.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Ulduar, but I can see where they are coming from with that. Design process would become tedious and people would become so accustomed to it that it would feel old and tired. Especially given that instead of designing mechanics to make it hard mode they can just include them in the fight and have multiple difficulties to appeal to everyone at targeted raid sizes, or just having those things become an achievement toward the meta for a mount.

[kary]

Bringing up the naxx argument a couple pages ago... my guild cleared naxx 40 (before I joined unfortunately) and everyone that played back then unanimously agrees that current content is >>> old.

But anecdotes everywhere.

[Eapoe]

As far as which is harder, I really feel that at the time they are current most raids at the hardest difficulty are, well, difficult. Obviously some have their easy fights (lootship, HFA anyone?), and some have their hard fights (Mannoroth, Tyrant) and some have their RNG f'd us fights (Mannoroth). The differences being that on current versions most difficult fights can be out geared to an extent (I'm a 13/13 mythic raider and I agree on this), but outgearing won't help when you need execution on fights like Fel Lord and one person screwing up 1 time can cause a wipe; whereas in old raids it's harder to outgear the content with there only being the 1 raid size, but that's not to say old raids couldn't be out geared.
Mechanics always play a factor. Whether it's something that can 2 shot a tank or not running boxes on HFA quick enough on progression. As people get gear these mechanics can somewhat be ignored, at the same time, even at almost complete warforged gear, Iron Reaver can still one shot people that don't move for barrage, or people deciding to ignore bombs. Also when it comes down to the amount of abilities. Vanilla might have had less, but no doubt with player toolkits and scaling were hard to deal with, whereas current their might be more abilities but don't require as much precise handling, but fail enough and it's a wipe.
Bringing specific classes can also play a factor. 3 DK's and 1 shaman make Xhul face roll, but without that comp requires slightly better playstyle to execute.
I'm not going to say either is harder though, because let's face it, Blizzard designs the encounters with challenge in mind with the available abilities for the classes. Some fights will always be harder than others and some will even be face roll easy, just the style of a raid.