[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[RsinRC]

If you don't have anything to contribute don't be a smartass. We are still in alpha and my concern is valid no mater how many times this topic has been brought. We still don't have a final outcome on the subject so we can still debate as much as we can.

It might be valid but the answer is always the same. Either no1 knows, someone claims it to be good or someone claims it's complete dogshit. It's a cycle. Nobody knows until it becomes beta where everyone can actually play and see where we are strong or weak. It has been brought up in this forum a shit ton of times and there are legit answers in here but still someone always comes thru and puts in their exaggerated opinion and fucks it all up again and it keeps going.

We can discuss it no doubt. You asked the question with much hyperbole in it whether you didnt intend it or not. And then the forum blows up with the same things. Been the same now for 70+ pages. It almost felt like a loaded question. I rather you ask the why and the hows and what works or what doesnt work rather than say yo we're so ass in aoe but others are so good with no real merit. Some people don't know how to go at it when it comes to fights with a lot of targets and others do but until there is a solid general feel and rotation nobody really knows. Everything in between is pure speculation at this point. Even Kretan has done plenty of tests and says how we're doing with actual experience + logs but right after his posts someone will outright say na we're garbage lol.

What I'm saying is we're, from the ground up, a multitarget spec. When it comes to 3-5 targets we do great. When it comes to single target we do great. When it comes to 6+ targets it becomes a, fuck what do I do? type of situation. And when we have all our perks thru set bonuses, legendaries etc then we can discuss, really get into it, on what is working and what is not and compare it to other specs.

What I do agree with Isentropy is that given that we as a class have 1 true dps spec it sucks that we do not have a talent that makes us excel or better in an "aoe" situation.
@Ilir. It is what it is. I meant we're good at multitarget but said aoe. You say we're bad at aoe but you meant burst aoe.

[l33t]

On top of all this...we are complaining about burst AOE...probably the least important aspect of raiding. For CMs, we have a ring that fixes this shortcoming solidly....this whole discussion is just ridiculous.

I see.

Well, would you kindly please create and maintain the list of non-ridiculous topics which we are allowed to discuss then?

[Juicebox]

It has been, and in my opinion it's kind of a non issue once your artifact is maxed. Sure it's a bit annoying, but I don't really think it's a big deal.

Could work in our favour early on, as our base damage has to be higher instead to counter the fact that not much is affected by artifact talents.
But if history is bound to repeat itself we'll get nerfed early on because of having a higher base damage, just to sit slightly behind the rest for the rest of the expansion.

There is a fundamental problem with the artifact talents being that imbalanced though.
While others will see more effect from upgrading their artifact, we wont see the same results.

[KrakHed]

Yeah sorry, my bad. Bénédiction = blessing (the opposing of a curse)

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In french malédiction = curse and bénédiction = blessing.

That's why I translated it directly into "benediction" but maybe that's not an english word...

"Benediction" is an English word, but it's not as commonly used as "Blessing" so it sounds a bit weird.

[Ilir]

@RsinRC what ? No aoe is aoe. We're shit at aoe. We're good for multidot/council. Multidot is not aoe last time I checked.

Anyways I got some new whispers but I'm way too tired atm so I'll post them tomorrow... for the two of you who're interested by them

Cheers everyone ! (oh btw, the last boss of the "Eye of Azshara" dungeon is godsend for Shadow... the fight starts in execute range =D)

[Kretan]

I see.

Well, would you kindly please create and maintain the list of non-ridiculous topics which we are allowed to discuss then?

Cut out the hyperbole already and stop with this trolling crap. I can have an opinion on the severity of an issue just like you can. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm shouting you down. Cut it out.

I'm open to debate, but if you keep throwing out these pointless baiting posts only intended to troll and get me angry, whats the point in talking to you? Debate and make meaningful posts. I've done that all along, and i'd appreciate it if you did too.

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Could work in our favour early on, as our base damage has to be higher instead to counter the fact that not much is affected by artifact talents.
But if history is bound to repeat itself we'll get nerfed early on because of having a higher base damage, just to sit slightly behind the rest for the rest of the expansion.

There is a fundamental problem with the artifact talents being that imbalanced though.
While others will see more effect from upgrading their artifact, we wont see the same results.

Yeah I understand it. That's why I said it's clunky. It likely won't mean much once maxed, but it's annoying as heck in the mean time.

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@RsinRC what ? No aoe is aoe. We're shit at aoe. We're good for multidot/council. Multidot is not aoe last time I checked.

Anyways I got some new whispers but I'm way too tired atm so I'll post them tomorrow... for the two of you who're interested by them

Cheers everyone ! (oh btw, the last boss of the "Eye of Azshara" dungeon is godsend for Shadow... the fight starts in execute range =D)

Yeah I love the whispers. I wanted to try out some dungeons for it, but I get spam DCd, or when the queue finally pops the healer bails and the group falls apart feelssadman.

[RsinRC]

@Ilir I think im pretty sure that, to most, aoe is an encounter where you hit a lot of targets. In fact, ive noticed since forever that peoole write aoe to shorten the meaning of 'hitting multiple targets'. But thats another discussion that ya can deal with it how you like. My bad if you misunderstood or that i misinterpreted what i was tryin to say but at the end of the day now we know what we're talking about and still I stand by it.

[Ilir]

Yeah let's agree to disagree on semantics

and @Kretan aww I had no issues for dungeon.... except one where we wiped quite a lot and at like 1% hp when we were about to kill it => we all got kicked from the server and the dungeon got reseted -.-

Hope you'll have better luck next time ! (if you do the arcway, just afk sleep during the ooze trash and the spiders trash. You'll thank me later haha.)

[KrakHed]

for the two of you who're interested by them

I'm sure there are more people interested, even if they aren't expressing their interest.

Yeah I love the whispers. I wanted to try out some dungeons for it, but I get spam DCd, or when the queue finally pops the healer bails and the group falls apart feelssadman.

Well, I hope that gets better. If I could go after the quotes myself, I would.

[Kretan]

Yeah let's agree to disagree on semantics

and @Kretan aww I had no issues for dungeon.... except one where we wiped quite a lot and at like 1% hp when we were about to kill it => we all got kicked from the server and the dungeon got reseted -.-

Hope you'll have better luck next time ! (if you do the arcway, just afk sleep during the ooze trash and the spiders trash. You'll thank me later haha.)

Yeah I was like ok this weekend it's not meant to be lol. So far I've made it to the mirror boss in vault of the wardens (a few weeks back when it was unkillable), through Violet hold, and then all the way through darkheart thicket. like 95% of my time has been spent PVPing mostly cuz I'm trying to hold off from going in to raids/dungeons to not spoil it for myself lol....but WoD is so boring I can't help it haha.

[l33t]

I'm open to debate, but if you keep throwing out these pointless baiting posts only intended to troll and get me angry, whats the point in talking to you? Debate and make meaningful posts. I've done that all along, and i'd appreciate it if you did too.

I'm trying man, I'm trying, but I can't debate anything when all you do is "oh this is nonimportant in the long run" about any negatives we have. You know, anything is unimportant in the long run, because in two years we will have another shadow priest.

Try to look at things more realistically - try to think like a player thinks who is going to play since expansion's day 1, who is going to take a vacation when raids are opened to be able to progress more with his guild. You'll quickly see that all things that are absolutely nonimportant to you in the long run are more important than life itself to that player.

[deviantcultist]

There is something I've been wondering for a while. I know that this is not fully relevant to the thread, but an quick answer would be appreciated.

How does spec changing work in Legion low lvls? Do you decide your spec at lvl 10 like WoD or do you do that from lvl 1? Cause I've seen Plea for Disc registered as a lvl 7 spell and the calculators seem to adjust even pre lvl10 to the spec you've chosen.

[Ilir]

atm low level is kinda fucked up.

Some class have 0 spell at level 1 haha.

But iirc, you still decide your spec at level 10.

[Nycros]

Surprised the Blizz devs don't just give up and delete shadow spec sometimes...

MoP: "Our single target is terrible because our multi target is too strong. We don't care about multi target, we want single target damage buffed."

WoD: "Single target is alright but it doesn't fit our theme because we are forced to not use dots. Give back dots."

Legion: "Our single target is excellent, but our AoE sucks. Give us better AoE."

[Ilir]

Aoe has always been an issue. It was non existent in vanilla and bc. Tho Vanilla was kinda weird balance wise and BC we were walking mana pot so that wasn't really an issue.

In LK our aoe was great iirc.

Cata I don't really know, haven't pve back then.

MoP lol. WoD our aoe was shit then they overbuffed Cascade (it's broken).

Also the complaint 'bout WoD was because COP literally forces you not to use dots. It literally takes away 2 core spells away from you in ST (unless you do the dotweaving but afaik, it's not really worth it).

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In Legion, they made our ST good while using dots. That's the big difference with WoD (thanks to voidform etc..) and they put a lot of emphasis around dots (mass hysteria, Sphere of Insanity that requires swp etc etc).

All we really need now is some tweaking to our talents because some of them don't really make sense with the gameplay of voidform.

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(btw if you guys thought auspicious spirit relation to crit was bad... you haven't seen DH relation to crit... it's pretty retarded...)

[Nycros]

Yeah, I was just pointing out that there have been calls for buffs to everything from ST, AoE, dots, mobility, survivability, etc. Even Mind Spike was originally added in WotLK because some were asking for a proper casted nuke for Shadow.

We ask for something, we get it, then we complain about something else. Same as all classes/specs, but it just grinds a bit... I'd rather be happy with my niche and know that I contribute better than others when it's a fight that works with my kit. Extreme example would be Razuvious and MCing his minions.

And yes, I know, that's the "bring the class" style of thinking. But it doesn't have to be that B&W... that argument started in BC when spriests were literally required for raiding due to being the only mana battery in the game, and healer mana was tuned around it.

Anyway, I say we should be happy that we can now target swap effectively. We can single target effectively. We can council fight like a one man army (niche). But we fall short on AoE. Not the worst thing in the world, given the legendary ring, right?

[Ilir]

It is not the worst thing in the world but to some people (me included) it just feels boring. Would I trade our ST power for more aoe ? absolutely not.

Whenever I see tons of small adds pop I feel useless af. It's not a great feeling. Doesn't mean the class is worthless tho.

I just wish Shadow Crash was a little better because the animation is really dope (but a little too slow)

[l33t]

Anyway, I say we should be happy that we can now target swap effectively. We can single target effectively. We can council fight like a one man army (niche). But we fall short on AoE. Not the worst thing in the world, given the legendary ring, right?

Right.

But I'd better hold on comments about damage and niches until damage tuning is out, tbh. We're ok right now, but, you know, a couple of ST nerfs could easily move us to where we were in MoP.

Also: I wonder why such a simple idea that different players want different things eludes you people. You know, thinking that anyone must like the way a spec is played because you like the way it is played is kinda weird.

[Ilir]

RIP me ... I can't play on any on my char on the alpha "Character not Found" T______T

[Naga Coatl]

Well, people's requests and complaints vary with the content that Blizzard puts in the game. If we get something and suddenly it's not what's most useful, it's pretty normal to see requests for other stuff. For example, a big part of all this concern about AoE is due to the fact that AoE has become more and more relevant in the last two expansions, because of Challenge Modes and raid design.

Players just don't want to have strengths that don't matter because are useless for the main content. I mean, I get that hearing complaints may be tiresome, but it's not entirely unjustified.