Protection legion Discussion

[Beardyface]

Since you went straight to personal attacks, I guess you have no decent arguments against my post.

Wait, what? You insulted everyone here:

Instead of crying and living in fantasies where you swim in rage spamming Ignore Pains every second with 0 effort.

And you call "misinformation" on math and show a clear lack of understanding about how this class works.

Begone, troll.

[Deleted]

Now people let's not derail this into personal attacks and keep it a bit civilized, even though the subject is rage..

Yes, we do have a decent amount of rage income on trash and others, even with shieldblock up.
The currenty rage formula is just not the best formula, if we gear ourself in current-tiers we, it might be minor percentage, we still receive less rage.
How big the numbers are going to be no one knows, but the fact that we will receive less rage based on hp increases buffs or outgearing content is just not okay.

Of course, pushing tiers with a warrior with this formula shouldn't be a problem at all. But think about the warriors who are not interested in that, imagine doing a legacy raid with the current(on alpha) rage formula, that rage pool is going to move a hell of a lot slower.

[Deliverer]

So maybe play smart and accumulate rage for such big hits? Blizzard offers you gameplay where you get to choose where to use IP instead of mindless spamming it because you have so much rage you dont know where to spend it.

Also 2 pieces of prot set halve cooldown on shield wall and and last stand, while Anger Management makes those cooldown even lesser (up to about 1 minute on Last stand which can grant up to 90%! health). Rage generation from revenge, shield slam and being hit is more then enough for prot to tank, unless you want mindless spamming of IP. And last stand/shield wall with short cooldowns are there to back you up if emergency hits.

Unless they changed it recently tier 19 warrior set bonus don't cut down our CD of last stand and shield wall in half.

2 set : You gain 20% increased chance to critically block while Shield Block is active.
4 set: Your critical blocks generate 5 Rage.

There was a legendary item that did it but is now gone, I can't see it on legion alpha.

Even with the rage generation we have on live you wouldn't be able to spam ignore pain because it costs 40 rage and that is not what people are asking. People want to have control over their resource and not to be screwed up by parrying or dodging an attack or using a damage reduction.
We want a resource that scale with gear and not the other way around. We will find ourselves in a situation where we want to avoid crit gear completely because parrying an attack will put us in trouble if we are to use our AM for a big hit.
Also I think you are overestimating anger management, the only reason it was good on live it's because of unyielding strikes.

[mindw0rk]

Damn, it really was legendary :/ That sucks, even if they didnt remove it, I wont be able to use it in PvP.

As for rage, they gave you control over it by giving abilities that generate it. Just like rogue. He can accumulate combo points by using abilities, but also has passive energy regen. Better gear and constant parry/dodge doesnt screw you at all. You WANT to avoid attacks since not being hit >>> getting rage from being hit. Crit is in fact the best stat for prot along with haste, since the more crit you have, the more SS procs you'll have = the faster you regen rage. On top of being able to parry heavy blows.

Also how anyone can say that getting tier gear screwes us, just look at those 2,4 set bonuses! How much crit block chance you'll have during shield block? Over 50%? Thats 5 rage for each critical block and it works for every critical block outside SB. Also Nelfarion Fury ability with this 4 set bonus is like free rage on demand for IP.

The only thing I want to see changed related to rage is shield block granting at least some rage when fighting against enemies that barely hit you. So that you could still generate rage passively in old content. And mastery will be more useful

[Breccia]

As for rage, they gave you control over it by giving abilities that generate it. Just like rogue. He can accumulate combo points by using abilities, but also has passive energy regen. Better gear and constant parry/dodge doesnt screw you at all. You WANT to avoid attacks since not being hit >>> getting rage from being hit. Crit is in fact the best stat for prot along with haste, since the more crit you have, the more SS procs you'll have = the faster you regen rage. On top of being able to parry heavy blows.

Horrible analogy. Rogues have two entirely separate resources, one of which they have 100% control over, the other is static. We have one resource, with 2 methods to get, one of which is partially under our control and the other of which is wildly erratic due to parries and offtanking times. Can you imagine the hue and cry if a rogue attack that crit didn't give a Combo Point? "Well you did more damage, you don't need the Combo Point". How stupid would that sound? That's exactly what parrying, blocking, and using Shield Wall does to us now.

[Warriorsarri]

There's also the small fact that on a lot of bosses we spend 50%+ of the fight not taking damage, due to tank swaps, meaning we get 0 rage from damage taken, and no free revenge procs to counteract that. If the gaps between tanking is large enough we can build a decent enough bank of rage for when it's our turn again, but if it's just a small gap between them, there's a large likelihood that we'll enter it without enough rage to cover the first few swings from the boss.

Getting rage from damage taken sounds real dandy on paper, but in practice it just doesn't work, which Blizz already knows as they removed that mechanic from Protection back in Wrath, and from Arms/Fury in WoD.

[mindw0rk]

Horrible analogy. Rogues have two entirely separate resources, one of which they have 100% control over, the other is static. We have one resource, with 2 methods to get, one of which is partially under our control and the other of which is wildly erratic due to parries and offtanking times. Can you imagine the hue and cry if a rogue attack that crit didn't give a Combo Point? "Well you did more damage, you don't need the Combo Point". How stupid would that sound? That's exactly what parrying, blocking, and using Shield Wall does to us now.

Why you compare active rogue resource gain with passive warriors resource gain? Compare combat points to rage gained from SS/Revenge. Which both grant resource reliably. If we compare passive gains, its different only in a way that for rogue energy regens fast at same pace while for warrior it depends on how hard he was hit. But rogue requres energy for almost all of his attacks, while warrior doesnt need rage for any of his abilities except IP/SB, so he can live with slower passive regen.

Getting rage from damage taken sounds real dandy on paper, but in practice it just doesn't work, which Blizz already knows as they removed that mechanic from Protection back in Wrath, and from Arms/Fury in WoD.

I would agree with you if warrior gained rage ONLY by being hit. But he has other means.
Blizzard removes and puts back abilities all the time. They removed raptor strike and moongoose bite from hunters, in Legion its core of new hunter spec rotation.

[Breccia]

Why you compare active rogue resource gain with passive warriors resource gain?

Because YOU LITERALLY DID THAT YOURSELF TWO POSTS AGO.

[mindw0rk]

Because YOU LITERALLY DID THAT YOURSELF TWO POSTS AGO.

I didnt, you read it wrong. I compared prot to rogue because they both have 2 ways of replenishing their resource. Active and passive.

[Breccia]

I didnt, you read it wrong. I compared prot to rogue because they both have 2 ways of replenishing their resource. Active and passive.

It's the same damn resource! That's the point! That's why your original analogy was so horribly flawed! Not just that rogues have full control of one, and the other never varies, but that it's two separate pools for two separate things. We don't have that. Hell you tried to do the same thing yourself by bringing it up:

As for rage, they gave you control over it by giving abilities that generate it. Just like rogue. He can accumulate combo points by using abilities, but also has passive energy regen. Better gear and constant parry/dodge doesnt screw you at all. You WANT to avoid attacks since not being hit >>> getting rage from being hit. Crit is in fact the best stat for prot along with haste, since the more crit you have, the more SS procs you'll have = the faster you regen rage. On top of being able to parry heavy blows.

There was no misreading. You made a horrible point. There is no valid comparison between any form of Prot resource generation and any form of Rogue resource generation because they have two for two different systems, and we do not. The fact that rogues generate resources by attacking is not relevant in this context. Try something else.

[mindw0rk]

There was no misreading. You made a horrible point.

I made good and valid point which you failed completely to understand. Lets stop right here.

[Murlocbait]

I made good and valid point which you failed completely to understand. Lets stop right here.

Please do. Just gonna put you on ignore and hope others do the same so this thread can get back to being useful and productive.

[Tirilka]

It's the same damn resource! That's the point! That's why your original analogy was so horribly flawed! Not just that rogues have full control of one, and the other never varies, but that it's two separate pools for two separate things. We don't have that. Hell you tried to do the same thing yourself by bringing it up:



There was no misreading. You made a horrible point. There is no valid comparison between any form of Prot resource generation and any form of Rogue resource generation because they have two for two different systems, and we do not. The fact that rogues generate resources by attacking is not relevant in this context. Try something else.

Don't bother yourself, he has a long history of spewing nonsense. A prime target for ignore function, if I do say so myself.

[Beardyface]

Another blue post. This one isn't suprising:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...316?page=9#167

04/22/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Carnizora
For Protection Warriors:

1. How does Ignore Pain gets calculated?

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=190456/ignore-pain

says it is
(15 * Attack power * Percent health)
which is obviously incorrect.

2. How does Never Surrender gets calculated?

Celestalon:

The "Percent Health" is leftover from a previous implementation. It's simply 15*AP.

Never Surrender is a simple linear increase. Being at 25% health increases the Ignore Pain size by 75%.

I wish I had access to post questions there. Namely:

1. Should I nicely ask the Shamans who heal me not to take Ancestral Vigor, since it will hurt my rage gain?
2. Should I skip Toughness in the artifact tree since it will hurt my rage gain?
3. Should I set my gear choice to DPS for bonus rolls and loot, since Stam trinkets will hurt my rage gain?
4. In which cases should I take the Indomitable talent?
5. Why would any raid group want to bring me when I'm going to be the only tank rolling on STR gear? What do I offer that other tanks do not?

(I would ask about Last Stand here, but they would likely reply with, "well, yes, Last Stand will cut your rage generation, but it's also your only self heal, so you're going to want to use it if you're really low on health")

And most importantly:

Is it still your design philosophy that every tank should be roughly equal to each other in terms of usefulness? I understand you want some tanks to be stronger on some encounters and weaker on others, but do you all now feel it's acceptable for one tank to be weaker in every encounter?

Because if they don't alter that rage formula at some point or constantly tweak our tuning as the raid tier(s?) go on, that's exactly what's going to happen. We'll likely be strong in the at the beginning of the 1st tier, but the more we gear mid tier the worse we're going to get.

[Neehs]

This tier will have some hurdels for a warrior.

Testing Star Augur Etraeus today, he never melee's, casts spells 24/7..

You can't block and shield block has 0 value outside of being a dps boost, the artifact ability is also useless.

What's funny is how inferior you feel next to a prot paladin, whom can block the spells, has an active mitigation that works vs ANYTHING not just melee swings, and the healing to boot. We would rely on IP and IP ONLY for mitigation that fight.

You might think it's a great fight for spell reflect, but they're not reflectable, so the artifact trait does nothing, the 30% reduction helps, but it doesn't make up for much.

Even not taking any rage/scaling/health issues into the equation, being so tied to blocking is very annoying, the artifact ability ain't helping there either.
It wasn't all bad back when blood shield and the paladins sotr only affected phsyical, but now it's just overall damage taken and it's been a big factor in alot of testing so far.

[Deliverer]

I did raid test on druid but yes I wouldn't do that boss with anything but pala or druid. As druid I just kept up mark of ursol permanently + frenzied regen and perma pulverize was barely getting hit.

If you want an advice just make a druid or pala and test with them it doesn't make sense to go in with an undertuned tank in my opinion. My co tank dk died all the time cause dk are shit and my other co tank druid wasn't there.

[mindw0rk]

What's funny is how inferior you feel next to a prot paladin, whom can block the spells, has an active mitigation that works vs ANYTHING not just melee swings, and the healing to boot. We would rely on IP and IP ONLY for mitigation that fight.

Been telling this for quite some time: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39368640

I dont know why none of testers ever mentioned this obvious issue in feedback topic

[Stagga24]

If we're super lucky and parry all attacks, we'll have 0 rage for the big hit that require active mitigation to survive. As unlikely this scenario is, having a really luck streak shouldn't lead to our death.

Shield Slam + Revenge = rage. so you would have rage?

- - - Updated - - -

lol I keep looking at the celestalon quote.

The formula for rage gained from damage taken for protection warrior was posted as RageGained = 50 * DamageTaken / MaxHealth.

As a follow up how does block/dodge/parry/miss or self/external damage reduction or absorbs impact rage gains.

Doesn't stamina and therefore gearing up among other stamina mods such as talents, trinkets, buffs, etc, impact rage gains negatively if the damage stays the same or goes down which would be the case as we "farm" a raid zone?



Block/Dodge/Parry/Miss events do not grant Rage, nor does damage removed by damage reduction. Absorbed damage does create Rage.

Gaining Stamina does technically reduce your Rage gained per same-sized hit, however the vast vast majority of Stamina gains you get come along with matching Strength gains, which increases the size of Ignore Pain. Getting an upgraded piece of gear remains neutral with respect to Ignore Pain size. About the only exception to this is a pure Stam+Mitigation trinket. This is roughly similar to how Block works.

upgrade = nuetral. if nuetral means no change then your upgrade isn't an upgrade lmao. So haste cap for lower GCD is best stat it feels like?

- - - Updated - - -

lol I keep looking at the celestalon quote.

The formula for rage gained from damage taken for protection warrior was posted as RageGained = 50 * DamageTaken / MaxHealth.

As a follow up how does block/dodge/parry/miss or self/external damage reduction or absorbs impact rage gains.

Doesn't stamina and therefore gearing up among other stamina mods such as talents, trinkets, buffs, etc, impact rage gains negatively if the damage stays the same or goes down which would be the case as we "farm" a raid zone?



Block/Dodge/Parry/Miss events do not grant Rage, nor does damage removed by damage reduction. Absorbed damage does create Rage.

Gaining Stamina does technically reduce your Rage gained per same-sized hit, however the vast vast majority of Stamina gains you get come along with matching Strength gains, which increases the size of Ignore Pain. Getting an upgraded piece of gear remains neutral with respect to Ignore Pain size. About the only exception to this is a pure Stam+Mitigation trinket. This is roughly similar to how Block works.

upgrade = nuetral. if nuetral means no change then your upgrade isn't an upgrade lmao. So haste cap for lower GCD is best stat it feels like?

[Breccia]

Yeah, I hate to defend Celestalon...so I won't. Unless gear and/or bosses change how they're statted in Legion, I don't believe that the increase in Str on warrior gear keeps pace with the increase in damage we're taking.

[Beardyface]

Yeah, I hate to defend Celestalon...so I won't. Unless gear and/or bosses change how they're statted in Legion, I don't believe that the increase in Str on warrior gear keeps pace with the increase in damage we're taking.

Even if it does (he's not wrong in saying that the STR and Stam stats on items tend to scale linearly - he's stupid, but not wrong), it doesn't make any of this more intuitive. Imagine new folks coming to WoW because of the movie and wanting to play a prot warrior:

"Cool", they say, "I get this. I need more health than the other players because I'm going to be taking hits. I should use stam flasks and stam trinkets and ooh, Last Stand, neato! Oh, hey, that Indomitable talent looks cool." If you were any other tank, that's a valid strategy. Maybe not optimal, but valid. As a warrior, though, those things actually hurt you, and nothing in game lets you know that.

It's WoD Arms all over again. The true problem with WoD Arms wasn't that it was boring (even though it was), it was that the class design pushed one concept: pool your rage and use it on your highest damage abilities during Colossus Smash. Except doing that lowered your DPS. In reality, you got the most DPS out of ignoring the Colossus Smash window entirely, and just keeping up Rend and hitting all your buttons, including Colossus Smash, when they came off of cooldown. If some of those attacks happened to line up with Colossus Smash, then neato! - you got higher damage. Things changed a bit with the tier bonuses, but still, it was wildly unintuitive in the midst of an expansion with the touted goal of trying to make the classes as intuitive as possible. And I'm not even going into "Why not whirlwind" or the massive trap that was the Slam talent.

I remember trying to explain why WoD Arms was such a big deal to my guild when it happened. They kept saying "it does fine numbers, what's the problem?" The problem, I told them, was that you had inept developers redesigning a few classes and making them far more unintuitive and far less fun to play, and if your class is still intuitive and fun to play, it's because they devs haven't gotten to it yet and it's still using the basic core design from MoP. Well, the devs are changing ALL this classes this go round, and sadly, there are MANY other classes with serious issues.

So what can we do?

Post in the theorycrafting thread. Ask about all these things we've been talking about. Email some famous warrior streamers who may have missed the rage formula announcement. Make them aware. Mostly, though, don't give in. "Eh, they'll fix it eventually, you say." History tells us otherwise. Look at WoD arms.