[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Animefreak3K]

Fires of Justice + BoW + DP = Much, much HP.
For Sure specing into Justicar's Vengeance is a must have, because DP now make it free (and not limited to 3 HP like on Live).

Pretty nice, but might be overpowered in PvP, because of it's heal.

DP also can proc from itself (like on Live).
The Duration is now 9 secons (instead of 8 on Live).

DP does not work with WoG (It still doesn't uses HP - Still buggy).
DP does not work with Seal of Light.
DP does not work with Execution Sentence.

[Deleted]

I explained why you're wrong about that and so have others. If you actually read you'd know why you're wrong and I'm not going to type a wall of text explaining again. Just for a 2sec reply of what is essentially "lol you're wrong".



I use my crit flash of lights on those about to die yes. If you actually read any parts of my posts you'd know that. If using a crit FoL twice in a raid is going to make you lose dps then you have a lot more to worry about. I have been talking about WoD only in every one of my posts. If you actually read you'd know this. No one is going to hard cast shit. Maybe I might hard cast once in a raid if it I know it would be useful yes.

Sorry dude, but i just don't know what you are on about. I have read your posts and i still have no idea what you are on about. As i said, if its the role thing, then you are in denial.
If its something else then it's unrelated to what i was talking about. Maybe you are reading something in my post that isn't there? No idea. You need to try and give a bit more context, because i don't see anything wrong.

As for the flashes... if its coming at the cost of damage then you are doing it wrong. If you are saving people, your healers are doing it wrong. I got no problems whatsoever. ^^
We are talking about a raid context. Do keep that in mind. In a 5 man with your buddies or a challenge mode, your heal gains importance. But in a raid context your heal is an insult to the healers. Hope you come to understand that.
I have no idea what your point is, but the instant heal is something you could use as a melee (though preferably only on dead spots in the rotation). So... i didnt dispute that?

Lets see... i applaud your spirit of wanting to help your raid anyway you can... but in fact you aren't working at the best efficiency as a team when you do that healing at the cost of damage. The healer has to be able to heal the raid. The encounter is designed that way. The only things that are unhealable are mistakes. A flash does not fix mistakes, nor it should. Nor is it obviously a sustainable strategy.
I would sugest you try leading a raid, making strategies and analysing the raid performance. I think those would help you grow as a player and see the real value your heals have.
Your instant heal may save someone in a blue moon... but what about next time? The point i did make is that having instant tools, like a hand spell or a BoP, is what your "support" is about. But your role is damage dealer. Never forget that.

[ruiizu]

Well, obviously if it costs you 0dps, its not bad, its not that will ever happen or exist at all, at least not any meaningful stuff(you either trade time dpsing, HP that should be used for dps, or talents that trade dps for heals... and that is all BAD), but...

What exactly do people think healer is doing when someone is dying and needs heals fast? Ignore it and wait for dps to use their pathetic crap to save the guy or instantly react to save him themselves, using cds and big stuff? What happens when dps interferes? Healer wastes their cd, mana and time and because dps neglected his job to interfere with healers job the fight is prolonged and healer has to heal longer, but with less mana and cds... on top of longer fights meaning more room for mistakes etc...

But hey, if they ever make healing have 0 negative impact on dps and is actually meaningful healing, then im all for it(and would be op and never would happen without dps tradeoff)... But that might only work for, like you said, lightening the load, dps topping themselves up etc... certainly not saving people, as no healer will ever wait for dps to save the guy dying fast...
"Oh look, he is at 10% hp and dying, he is fine, he can save himself or some other dps will save him"... said no healer ever

You seem to be suggesting there aren't many progression fights where there are more people who need healing than the healers can keep up with. This definitely happens, especially on progression kills. Times come up when the healer has to decide "do I heal the tank or do I heal the DPS about to die?" Sometimes both answers are wrong. The way you're suggesting things are is that dicey situations don't arise often where healing is difficult/impossible and that your heals won't keep anyone alive anyway. I have a problem with that assessment.

Also keep in mind that lightening the load enough may actually prevent healers from having to blow CDs on DPS instead of saving tanks. More leeway is always good to have on the harder fights. You might not consider it critical, but consider the opposite spectrum: there are fights where having a Discipline Priest do DPS healing helps beat the enrage/berserk timer. The reverse is definitely possible and not altogether unlikely on non-farm.

[Taeldorian]

Correction, Half hooray.
Why get rid of the one useful talent in the row (Let's ignore holy wrath until we can move while its channeled)

Why does blizzard have such a hard-on for equality.. my god.

Greater blessings was stupid anyway. I'll take any improvement to the 100 talents that we can get, and getting divine purpose to add procs to the rotation (something we've all been discussing for a long ass time, you can check on the previous pages) makes a lot of people happy. It's both better than greater blessings, and adds something we didn't have to the rotation. Holy wrath just needs to be castable while moving or have a shorter CD, and something big needs to happen with equality (doubt it will happen since Kalgan probably doesn't want to eat his words) and we'll be pretty good from a pve standpoint. Mobility is still an issue in the pvp department though.

[Yardu]

Sorry dude, but i just don't know what you are on about. I have read your posts and i still have no idea what you are on about. As i said, if its the role thing, then you are in denial.
If its something else then it's unrelated to what i was talking about. Maybe you are reading something in my post that isn't there? No idea. You need to try and give a bit more context, because i don't see anything wrong.

As for the flashes... if its coming at the cost of damage then you are doing it wrong. If you are saving people, your healers are doing it wrong. I got no problems whatsoever. ^^

This entire post only proves that you literally read nothing of mine. The reply to this post can be found in my wall of text post a few pages back. Honestly you should just go play a warrior.

@ruiizu: I agree.

[Ulthane]

Greater blessings was stupid anyway. I'll take any improvement to the 100 talents that we can get, and getting divine purpose to add procs to the rotation (something we've all been discussing for a long ass time, you can check on the previous pages) makes a lot of people happy. It's both better than greater blessings, and adds something we didn't have to the rotation. Holy wrath just needs to be castable while moving or have a shorter CD, and something big needs to happen with equality (doubt it will happen since Kalgan probably doesn't want to eat his words) and we'll be pretty good from a pve standpoint. Mobility is still an issue in the pvp department though.

Holy Wrath with a 30 second cd
And fine...
Make equality do 1000% yaaaaaaaaay but seriously I dunno
@ruiizu what is the coefficient on JV?

- - - Updated - - -

Fires of Justice + BoW + DP = Much, much HP.
For Sure specing into Justicar's Vengeance is a must have, because DP now make it free (and not limited to 3 HP like on Live).

Pretty nice, but might be overpowered in PvP, because of it's heal.

DP also can proc from itself (like on Live).
The Duration is now 9 secons (instead of 8 on Live).

DP does not work with WoG (It still doesn't uses HP - Still buggy).
DP does not work with Seal of Light.
DP does not work with Execution Sentence.

With all the stuff in the pvp tree that counter heals and reduce max hp it might not be op.

[Zahlen]

Greater blessings was stupid anyway.

#StillNotStupiderThanEquality Lols

Yeah, I'm definitely happy to have DP back. I just wish we had more than 1 viable level 100 talent

[Deleted]

You seem to be suggesting there aren't many progression fights where there are more people who need healing than the healers can keep up with. This definitely happens, especially on progression kills. Times come up when the healer has to decide "do I heal the tank or do I heal the DPS about to die?" Sometimes both answers are wrong. The way you're suggesting things are is that dicey situations don't arise often where healing is difficult/impossible and that your heals won't keep anyone alive anyway. I have a problem with that assessment.

Also keep in mind that lightening the load enough may actually prevent healers from having to blow CDs on DPS instead of saving tanks. More leeway is always good to have on the harder fights. You might not consider it critical, but consider the opposite spectrum: there are fights where having a Discipline Priest do DPS healing helps beat the enrage/berserk timer. The reverse is definitely possible and not altogether unlikely on non-farm.

I added disclaimer about it... but anyway.
What kind of healer needs to make decision if he is going to save tank or dps? Is he solo healing whole raid? It would be quite silly if all healers tried to do both, wouldnt it?

Thats some messed up raiding then... where healers have no assignments and all have to decide who to save and heal and people in danger randomly get healed for 5 times their max hp and then tank dies? Or all healers "save" tank and ignore everyone else?
If stuff is dying, healer will go for it... and if somehow dps and healer go for saving different guys, then i guess its nice... There is no time to say "ill go for that rogue, you go save warrior"... but hey, guess stars can align here and there and it ends up being good

But anyway, im not saying its not possible, but how many fights lately dont have some kind of enrage, be it hard or soft one? Having "utility" on 5% of fights is kinda silly... makes up for a great "support dps", doesnt it?
The issue with dps heals is that unless they are reliable and you can always count on dps doing it, healers will still go for it... It needs to be automatic or ALL should have it. Or you can count that every paladin will be able to save himself and you ignore their health bars? Will they always have HP ready for JV or WoG? Their healing can be some minor buffer at best, not something to rely upon.

Can they save stuff here and there? Most likely... is it something reliable that whole raid can count on? No... Then it cant be counted as utility...
"Oh look, guy is dying, im sure that ret has his HP up and ready to go to heal someone and im sure he will heal exactly the guy im not going to, or he will act at all"... Unless strat demands it and its agreed upon that every time boss does something, palies will do something for example.

Bottom line is... there will probably never be meaningful heals that dont have much negative effect on dps AND are something reliable that can be counted upon that it can be called utility. Atm its just random throwing heal here and there and hoping its going to be useful... but most of the time it wastes both heal and dps...

Again, unless there are fights and strategies that require that kind of stuff and its expected and agreed upon. Then can be utility... but only for that fight... randomly throwing it on people in raid is not utility, its insanity

[Deleted]

This entire post only proves that you literally read nothing of mine. The reply to this post can be found in my wall of text post a few pages back. Honestly you should just go play a warrior.

@ruiizu: I agree.

Okidoki. I tried beeing understanding. So... feel free to stay with your theory.

I will add that what ruiizu said is totally not the same thing you did. Mechanics may call for use of cooldowns. That is a planned strategy. Your instant flash is unpredictable and unreliable, and completely useless in the strategic sense. Feel free to understand or not. I dont really mind.

Oh lol... i play all classes. You mean main a warrior? It's possible, but the recent changes sure got me more excited. Sorry to burst your bubble. What you say here or how badly your raid plays is not a factor in my decision.
Though on that note i think you should go holy. You definitly got a healer air about you. You could save your raiders all day.
Actually, if you looked at their talent tree, you would see Holy is the supporter spec you have in your mind (and Reg really), not the Retribution paladin. But alas...

[ruiizu]

I added disclaimer about it... but anyway.
What kind of healer needs to make decision if he is going to save tank or dps? Is he solo healing whole raid? It would be quite silly if all healers tried to do both, wouldnt it?

Thats some messed up raiding then... where healers have no assignments and all have to decide who to save and heal and people in danger randomly get healed for 5 times their max hp and then tank dies? Or all healers "save" tank and ignore everyone else?
If stuff is dying, healer will go for it... and if somehow dps and healer go for saving different guys, then i guess its nice... There is no time to say "ill go for that rogue, you go save warrior"... but hey, guess stars can align here and there and it ends up being good

But anyway, im not saying its not possible, but how many fights lately dont have some kind of enrage, be it hard or soft one? Having "utility" on 5% of fights is kinda silly... makes up for a great "support dps", doesnt it?
The issue with dps heals is that unless they are reliable and you can always count on dps doing it, healers will still go for it... It needs to be automatic or ALL should have it. Or you can count that every paladin will be able to save himself and you ignore their health bars? Will they always have HP ready for JV or WoG? Their healing can be some minor buffer at best, not something to rely upon.

Can they save stuff here and there? Most likely... is it something reliable that whole raid can count on? No... Then it cant be counted as utility...
"Oh look, guy is dying, im sure that ret has his HP up and ready to go to heal someone and im sure he will heal exactly the guy im not going to, or he will act at all"... Unless strat demands it and its agreed upon that every time boss does something, palies will do something for example.

Bottom line is... there will probably never be meaningful heals that dont have much negative effect on dps AND are something reliable that can be counted upon that it can be called utility. Atm its just random throwing heal here and there and hoping its going to be useful... but most of the time it wastes both heal and dps...

Again, unless there are fights and strategies that require that kind of stuff and its expected and agreed upon. Then can be utility... but only for that fight... randomly throwing it on people in raid is not utility, its insanity

I'm not disagreeing that our current healing paradigm is kind of garbage as utility. At best, it's main use is when you just can't attack (there's a few fights where there are short periods where you can't do anything but grab your junk if you're not a class with heals). Word of Glory is kind of different because it's a powerful heal, so it can be used as a "save part of the raid" utility, but the fact that it costs damage is disconcerting.

However, understand that reducing overall damage taken through the fight is utility. Rogues that take less damage are an asset to the raid because they take less healing. A paladin who reduces the overall healing load is an asset, if it's implemented properly (JV is a very good example of this, because you can heal off damage and reduce the need for healing). It's effectively the same as -damage taken as long as it's actively happening often enough.

Anyways, I'm not going to argue with you about this for long. You're right about healing assignments, I'm just not arguing for the perfect world scenario (people die to raid mechanics on hard fights, even in the top guilds). Those assignments can get messed up by dead players, bad luck, and a list of other things. No matter what, I won't agree that healing is a poor utility.

The only area I think we can probably fully agree is that our current healing is not a very good form of utility. It's for these two reasons:

1. It doesn't heal for enough.
2. It costs DPS.

So I would argue it's really a numbers game. If you make Word of Glory increase damage, you make it a worthwhile utility. You can also take the route of "damage neutral," where it just doesn't cost damage (free, off the GCD). That's also fine, although I'm not a fan of CDs; I prefer JV.

[ujx]

Correction, Half hooray.
Why get rid of the one useful talent in the row (Let's ignore holy wrath until we can move while its channeled)

Why does blizzard have such a hard-on for equality.. my god.

There was no way that talent was going to stay. It didn't effect gameplay and was purely a dps boost. We desperately needed a proc besides Fires of Justice. I'm glad they also nerfed Greater Judgment. It means we can use DP and FoJ at the same time, which could either be comical, bad, and/or great.

[Deleted]

The only area I think we can probably fully agree is that our current healing is not a very good form of utility. It's for these two reasons:

1. It doesn't heal for enough.
2. It costs DPS.

So I would argue it's really a numbers game. If you make Word of Glory increase damage, you make it a worthwhile utility. You can also take the route of "damage neutral," where it just doesn't cost damage (free, off the GCD). That's also fine, although I'm not a fan of CDs; I prefer JV.

Yup. That is the crux. If Word of glory only had the cooldown and cost no HP, it would definitly be great utility. Heck any instant heal that is off the GCD could be. I don't even dare hope for that. xD

JV is always nice but if the mob can't be stunned (aka a boss) its not ideal. At wich point eye for an eye is the right choice if the damage is physical. Instead of healing you reduce it.

[Ulthane]

So looking at this its safe to say that Crusader Flurry wont come back and that is okay. I recall a while ago saying that seeing more than one ability replace the same ability was weird. But that was ages ago. That being said maybe its time to see something happen with Divine Hammer. So far right now the changes were in the right direction and well equality is just... blah... but hey we got DP

15
-Fine, buff Consecration

30
-Fine, maybe buff CS and Zeal damage

45
-Fine

60
-Virtues Blade: Could be turned into a proc, could be given the chaos bolt mechanic or stay as is.
-Blade of Wrath: I think at this point damage should deal 300% weapon damage as holy. Why, because if they can do that then they can do something fun with Virtue's Blade.
-Divine Hammer: Need's to be it's own ability, maybe remove the holy power generation if so and have it there as a good filler option if you so wished.

75
-Remove holy power cost from Word of Glory

90
-Fine if everything i have been told is okay.

100
-Divine Purpose: THANK GOD
-Holy Wrath: Lower CD to 30 seconds and/or remove channel part.
-Equality: -beats dead horse-

Ashbringer
-beats dead horse- Divine Tempest needs a tweak and Echo needs animation change.

[Deleted]

Virtue's blade could use a redesign or a buff to be honest. It's missing something. Its definitly alot weaker than BoW. I can't imagine a situation where it would be a better choice. Maybe as a PvP burst roulette? Meh... i'd rather something more fun like "increases the damage of your next TV by 10%".

[Temna]

15
-Fine, buff Consecration

While I agree that Consecration could be buffed (or baseline, prefer that tbh) I have a personal bugbear with Final Verdict. While the damage boost is welcome, it merely just that and nothing more. I think they could make it a bit more interesting by adding the Emp DS to it or something akin to that to make it more then just Big hit hit more hard.

[Taeldorian]

#StillNotStupiderThanEquality Lols

Yeah, I'm definitely happy to have DP back. I just wish we had more than 1 viable level 100 talent

Yeah, equality is hands down one of the worst things I've seen in this game to date. I've seen really shitty but fun abilities, and made use of them, but equality is neither fun or good. Just promotes shitty gameplay from people.

If they would tweak holy wrath just a little bit (maybe a 30 sec cd as Ulthane suggested, or castable while moving, maybe if you get interrupted while casting it you can recast it once but thats only enabled in pve?) then we'd have two options which is good enough. Just one tweak to holy wrath and we're good. Obviously mobility is a bit of an issue in both pve and pvp but I'm more concerned with the talents atm since we are so close to being good with the dreaded 100 row.

[Ulthane]

Virtue's blade could use a redesign or a buff to be honest. It's missing something. Its definitly alot weaker than BoW. I can't imagine a situation where it would be a better choice. Maybe as a PvP burst roulette? Meh... i'd rather something more fun like "increases the damage of your next TV by 10%".

Truth, personally it should be a blade beam type deal. Though im curious as to why its a lot weaker than BoW considering its 60% holy vs 300% physical?

- - - Updated - - -

While I agree that Consecration could be buffed (or baseline, prefer that tbh) I have a personal bugbear with Final Verdict. While the damage boost is welcome, it merely just that and nothing more. I think they could make it a bit more interesting by adding the Emp DS to it or something akin to that to make it more then just Big hit hit more hard.

Oh I agree. Consecration should have been baseline just like Divine Steed but fighting it at this point >< lord knows they know that we want it. That being the case then bake in FV to our stuff and then have Emp DS or something.

[Deleted]

Truth, personally it should be a blade beam type deal. Though im curious as to why its a lot weaker than BoW considering its 60% holy vs 300% physical?
.

Holy goes through armor. Lower CD = faster HP generation.

[Ulthane]

Holy goes through armor. Lower CD = faster HP generation.

Even the reduction in armor the 300% is still more damage than that of the 60% holy. I think armor mitigates 30%? The CD is honestly like 4 second difference. Which yea, more HP gen but the damage between the two is so vast.

[morislayer]

I'm still at a loss why Blizzard made each Paladin spec's talents so unique when in reality all paladins should be able to choose their own paladin esque utility.

Things like
-Divine Steed
-Auras in General
-Divine Purpose
-Holy Avenger
-Sanctified Wrath (See no reason prot should not AW have it now)
-Judgement of Light
-Holy Prism
-Blessing of Spellwarding
-Hand of the Protector
-Concentration
-Word of Glory

and why is Ret aura still in prot....Boils down to a huge design shift where they cherry picked ideas and said "That's X or Y spec" when we all should have access to it. Divine Steed being a great example. When did Blizzard decide beefed up vanilla trees should come back (in the form of Artifacts + new talents trees).

They could have made such simple trees, like WoG / Guarded by the light / Judgement of Light that let you choose how you want your raid / group healing to be accomplished. Or a dps / healing / survival boost via CD / Proc / rotation change mechanics. I don't mean to rant but I look at the three trees and see vanilla, choclate and strawberry ice cream in each tree but they all are ice cream. Why give a particular spec one flavor that might be amazing on one encounter but shit on another, where they have no out....well besides respeccing