[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Grimbold21]

Yeah, I suspect you're probably right.

I suspect folks will be disappointed though, since the images aren't that big of a deal

[Tommy T]

I see we have another intentionally obtuse person.

I never said that the scene couldn't also represent something else. I was pointing out that -- and pay attention this time -- the only things it clearly showed were the three points I've repeatedly stated. Everything else is pure speculation, up until the point it is actually demonstrated on screen in some fashion.

Was she giving up on the Lord of Light? Entirely possible. But we have no way of knowing if she was or not.
Was she just tired and people are reading too much into it? Entirely possible. But we have no way of knowing if she was or not.
Was she pondering whether or not to push out another cootie demon? Entirely possible. But we have no way of knowing if she was or not.
Did she just have an awful case of gas? Entirely possible. But we have no way of knowing if she was or not.

I know, it's a really hard concept to grasp.

Kind of the point of a discussion. Ya know...speculating.
What's with the condescending attitude? Really makes you look foul.

[Damajin]

So, Stannis burning Shireen at the stake? No emotional investment or evocativeness there right?

Not really actually, due to how it was handled and how it was the ultimate symbol of the ruin of his character. The only episode/event that really had any intensity or emotional investment in it was the Hardhome meeting and subsequent battle, the rest was a orgy of "let's do crazy shit because this is GoT and that's what we do on GoT" and Shireen being burned at the stake ended up being a lame attempt to start wrapping up the storyline of the Baratheons once and for all. It was the equivalent of a Howard Stern prank which would have worked if the lead up to it was handled correctly but that entire season was one giant clusterfuck.

So no, there's no emotional investment when the writing is so bad that they've got to resort to something like that for drastic effect because there's nothing else going on.

[Deleted]

I still think the series took a very odd turn. I mean, how does Stannis' death fit into the book's plot, where he conquers Winterfel and questions Greyjoy?

"The series and books work towards the same ending" yet, I have difficulty believing this considering HBO-GoT's turn of events.

As for John, it's tough to make an educated guess. Sure, many theories include his resurrection and quite frankly, they're all valid. But I think we should prepare ourselves to the possibility that John's dead and that Daenerys might be next.

[Grimbold21]

I still think the series took a very odd turn. I mean, how does Stannis' death fit into the book's plot, where he conquers Winterfel and questions Greyjoy?

Stannis hasn't taken Winterfell yet. He does question Theon and ponders on his execution

[Deleted]

I still think the series took a very odd turn. I mean, how does Stannis' death fit into the book's plot, where he conquers Winterfel and questions Greyjoy?

Last I remember from the books Theon is about to meet up with Stannis who is sitting with a starving army in snow. At the same time the boltons are getting bored and are preparing to ride out and face him. Has George revealed that Stannis is going to win?

[Thrif]

Not really actually, due to how it was handled and how it was the ultimate symbol of the ruin of his character. The only episode/event that really had any intensity or emotional investment in it was the Hardhome meeting and subsequent battle, the rest was a orgy of "let's do crazy shit because this is GoT and that's what we do on GoT" and Shireen being burned at the stake ended up being a lame attempt to start wrapping up the storyline of the Baratheons once and for all. It was the equivalent of a Howard Stern prank which would have worked if the lead up to it was handled correctly but that entire season was one giant clusterfuck.

So no, there's no emotional investment when the writing is so bad that they've got to resort to something like that for drastic effect because there's nothing else going on.

Well, then you have a very different opinion on the subject than the majority of the audience.

[Deleted]

Last I remember from the books Theon is about to meet up with Stannis who is sitting with a starving army in snow. At the same time the boltons are getting bored and are preparing to ride out and face him. Has George revealed that Stannis is going to win?

It's been a while ago, but I remember the Boltons actually avoiding the fight and sending the Freys. Anyway, Stannis rallies some northmen, captures Theon for questioning and saves Jeyne Pool (posing as Arya).

Stannis hasn't taken Winterfell yet. He does question Theon and ponders on his execution

Hm, you might be right. Is he at Umber's keep or Crofter's village?

Time to read the books again.

[Grimbold21]

It's been a while ago, but I remember the Boltons actually avoiding the fight and sending the Freys. Anyway, Stannis rallies some northmen, captures Theon for questioning and saves Jeyne Pool (posing as Arya).



Hm, you might be right. Is he at Umber's keep or Crofter's village?

Time to read the books again.

He's in some tower at the village. It's a sample chapter from Winds of Winter

[Khadgar]

[Sooba]

Interesting little theory on Jon maybe having his consciousness in Ghost. It makes a couple good points, but Ghost may have just been unusually noisy because of what happened.

"The other clue is harder to spot, but more definitive. It requires you to know the primary theory floating around out there—that on Jon Snow’s death, his consciousness moved over into Ghost, his direwolf and warg companion. From there, Melisandre could bring him back to life, as other red priests have done with other men.

And the Game of Thrones Season 6 premiere also gives us a hint that maybe Jon Snow really is trapped in Ghost’s body now. And here’s what it is: Ghost is normally virtually silent. This is noted in both the show and the books. And in the Game of Thrones season 6 premiere, the normally silent direwolf is very loud indeed. He growls and howls and makes a ruckus, and appears several times in the episode—after being noticeably scarce for most of the last few seasons, because he wasn’t that important. But now he is. And all of a sudden the silent direwolf is noisy.

Is that because he’s just grieving for his master, in a way that’s very uncharacteristic to him? Or is it because he’s suddenly got a whole new personality inside of him? That’s a pretty compelling reason for him to suddenly start acting totally differently, isn’t it? Indeed. It’s the best evidence we have so far that Jon Snow is still alive… and trapped."

Pssst, if you read the thread you'd know I'd explained this at length multiple times. The only way Jon stays "dead" for so long and doesn't resurrect with as much psychic damage as Catelyn is if his psyche is preserved in his wolf. The book also has him "reaching" (psychologically) for his wolf at the moment of his death. Lastly, it's spelled out for us in one of Melisandre's visions. -- "The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him." -- Emphasis mine. Pretty difficult to interpret that any other way.

[MCMLXXXII]

Ghost being noisy could just mean that Ghost knows Jon's dying. Because they have a bond.

[Sooba]

Yes, I know the theory about Jon warging into Ghost has been talked about numerous times, but I was specifically referring to the comments in this article about Ghost being unusually noisy. That part I found interesting, which could support the "Jon warged into Ghost" theory.

Fair enough.

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Ghost being noisy could just mean that Ghost knows Jon's dying. Because they have a bond.

Mmm. To be clear, that particular vision is book-only for the moment. It remains to be seen if the show writers feel that detail is important. With no Cat as precedence, there's no need to think his psyche would be all that affected in the show.

[eschatological]

Ghost being noisy could just mean that Ghost knows Jon's dying. Because they have a bond.

The issue is that Ghost is known for being completely silent. He doesn't growl, he doesn't whine, he doesn't yowl. I hadn't really thought of this when I heard him in the show the past week, but that's the "character" of the wolf, and why he's named Ghost, I just don't remember if the show held to this book characterization. Did he growl when he saved Sam last season?

[MCMLXXXII]

The issue is that Ghost is known for being completely silent. He doesn't growl, he doesn't whine, he doesn't yowl. I hadn't really thought of this when I heard him in the show the past week, but that's the "character" of the wolf, and why he's named Ghost, I just don't remember if the show held to this book characterization. Did he growl when he saved Sam last season?

No but Jon was his master. You always hear those stories about pets who know their master died?

[Sooba]

Ghost does make some sounds when he saves Sam on the show. Though, maybe there's reason for that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tf0WI2VrnEM

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I'm wondering if Jon (in the show) has been warging into Ghost for quite some time, only it hasn't been revealed yet. Maybe the incident with Sam was actually Jon warging into Ghost to save him. Maybe he deliberately leaves Ghost there so he can warg into him, as a way to keep tabs on things when he's gone.

And maybe it's nothing, but in that scene I linked, the guys say to Sam "Jon isn't here to protect you", then in pops Ghost. Now, maybe that's to show - but Ghost is here - or maybe it was done to subtly hint that Jon actually was there to protect Sam - through Ghost.

That would be interesting and it's not entirely that far-fetched, since Jon, despite not actually physically showing he can warg on the show, is aware of it and seemed to show a bit of interest in it when he was with the Wildlings and witnessed Orell doing it. Also note, Orell is classified as being alive on the show. His human body was killed by Jon, but he then warged into the eagle and began attacking Jon.

If the book is any indication, he hasn't. His connection is somewhere between where Rob's and Arya's were. Rob sharing strong emotional states with his wolf, but little else. Arya having full on wolf dreams. None of the three were able to control anything at all. Thus far that has been entirely the province of Bran. (Last we see Rickon he is becoming somewhat feral in a reversal of the usual connection.)

I don't see any reason to think Jon knew he had such a capacity. I think his death (if it is the case) will have been his first actual warging experience.

[Frontenac]

The issue is that Ghost is known for being completely silent. He doesn't growl, he doesn't whine, he doesn't yowl. I hadn't really thought of this when I heard him in the show the past week, but that's the "character" of the wolf, and why he's named Ghost, I just don't remember if the show held to this book characterization. Did he growl when he saved Sam last season?

Yes, Ghost did growl menacingly when Sam was attacked. It was even noted in that forum as a mischaracterization of the wolf.

[Gaman]

Interesting little theory that could support Jon maybe having his consciousness in Ghost. It makes a couple good points, but Ghost may have just been unusually noisy because of what happened.

"The other clue is harder to spot, but more definitive. It requires you to know the primary theory floating around out there—that on Jon Snow’s death, his consciousness moved over into Ghost, his direwolf and warg companion. From there, Melisandre could bring him back to life, as other red priests have done with other men.

And the Game of Thrones Season 6 premiere also gives us a hint that maybe Jon Snow really is trapped in Ghost’s body now. And here’s what it is: Ghost is normally virtually silent. This is noted in both the show and the books. And in the Game of Thrones season 6 premiere, the normally silent direwolf is very loud indeed. He growls and howls and makes a ruckus, and appears several times in the episode—after being noticeably scarce for most of the last few seasons, because he wasn’t that important. But now he is. And all of a sudden the silent direwolf is noisy.

Is that because he’s just grieving for his master, in a way that’s very uncharacteristic to him? Or is it because he’s suddenly got a whole new personality inside of him? That’s a pretty compelling reason for him to suddenly start acting totally differently, isn’t it? Indeed. It’s the best evidence we have so far that Jon Snow is still alive… and trapped."

Main problem with this theory, is quite simple. In the TV-show, Ghost has never been silent. Few examples:

s1: When LC Mormont is attacked by wights.
s2: Saving Sam from wights.
s4: Growling at Rast when in captivity at crasters, also howls when Bran sees ghost when warging Summer. Growls when attacking ppl during the attack on CB.
s5: Sam and Ghost saving gilly.

I mean, the reason Jon found Ghost in the first place, back in ep1, was because he heard him...

[Jotaux]

If the book is any indication, he hasn't. His connection is somewhere between where Rob's and Arya's were. Rob sharing strong emotional states with his wolf, but little else. Arya having full on wolf dreams. None of the three were able to control anything at all. Thus far that has been entirely the province of Bran. (Last we see Rickon he is becoming somewhat feral in a reversal of the usual connection.)

I don't see any reason to think Jon knew he had such a capacity. I think his death (if it is the case) will have been his first actual warging experience.

IIRC in the books Arya was able to warg into a random cat. She used this to be able to see when she was supposed to be blind.

[Nibelheimy]

Yes, I know the theory about Jon warging into Ghost has been talked about numerous times, but I was specifically referring to the comments in this article about Ghost being unusually noisy. That part I found interesting, which could support the "Jon warged into Ghost" theory.

Pretty sure in the books the wolves are described as being loud when their counterpart is in danger, especially by Caitlin at one point, I just don't remember which wolf it is.