Anduin Lothar vs Cairne Bloodhoof

[Dellis0991]

Both are badasses, but Cairne would kick Lothar's shit in I guess!

[Combatbutler]

Not human in WarCraft. A gladiator Varian killed a blademaster. He also beheaded an Ogre which obviously bigger than a tauren. Racial difference is not that much of importance when you are talking about the best of them.

Of course it is, being of a race puts overall limitations on someone. If you have a freak accident of a human that takes on stronger races and deals with them that is fine, but it is no longer fine if that freak accident beats another freak accidents of a race far superior to his own.

[Zulkhan]

The Tauren are bigger, stronger and tougher than Humans. That doesn't mean they're "physically superior". Speed and agility are also physical traits in which humans are superior.

Speed and agility are traits granted by physical strength to begin with. Cairne's movements during the Mak'gora with Garrosh were described as impressively fast, despite the age. Sure, humans have slender bodies but they have lack the muscle to be "agile", unlike Night Elves. Their only advantage is the sturdy, defensive equipment they usually wear and the way they exploit their weak but small and slender body at their advantage, which is likely the core aspect of their training as warriors.

But Humans are physically inferior to most races, not only Tauren but Orcs, Trolls and Night Elves as well, just to name a few.

So was Lothar....

Yeah, but he belongs to a physically inferior race. Not only this would obviously be a game-breaking factor in case of a "draw" in terms of skills, but Cairne was much older and, consequently, more experienced than Lothar, especially if we consider how Tauren used to live and the dangers they had to constantly fight against.

You say that a Totem would make a good weapon and expect that people would take you serious? Do you know even the slightest how weapons do work? And that most weapons are made to kill an enemy on instant or nearly instant if they hit?

And you hilariously fail to realize why Tauren use those weapons to begin with. They have the physical build to exploit such weapons. They're huge weapons, yet Tauren can wield them much like a human wields a big two-handed sword, these aspects combined makes totems extremely efficient both defensively and offensively. Who cares if a totem doesn't cut, one smashed on your head by a massive minotaur-like creature is going to kill you instantly or, if you're lucky, having 3/4 of your bones shattered to splinters.

Cairne doesn't wear a armor, a good thrust on his thigh artery would also kill him pretty fast.

Implying Tauren are on Human's level of softness.

He is described as wise

Not really. He just mimics his father's teachings and tries his best to not fuck up. He's also shown to be subject to emotional outbursts in numerous occasions, like when he blamed Garrosh for betraying his father even though he was aware that's not how things excatly went.

far stronger than Garrosh

"Far stronger" is an overstatement. It's implied he's probably better than Garrosh, not that he would make Garrosh his bitch. And that's not surprising, considered he's Cairne's son.

perfectly honorable

Much like his father.

smarter than Tyrande

Implying that to be an achievement.

and everybody likes him

The Grimtotem definitely didn't like him, last time I checked they tried to kill him. And even among his people and the Grimtotem who stayed loyal to him was shown a strong level of disagreement in regards of his choices, reason he was forced to impose a "soft" punishment on them (the exile from Thunder Bluff).

Cairne was not an invincible monster.

He was quite a monster nonetheless. Being acknowledged as one of the most dangerous creatures alive at 100+ years old (not even in his prime) is quite telling.

I meant Garrosh.

Garrosh wasn't the best but saying he wasn't a good warrior is quite pretentious. He was still the son of Grommash Hellscream and shared many of his virtues in combat.

[Igi]

Lorewise Lothar doesn't stand a chance. Cairne is badass!

[Deleted]

The weapon is impractical for a human, not a tauren

No. Because it has not the balance you would need for a blunt weapon to be effective, because it is only a trunk, neither it has some form of handle to use it effective, because it is only a trunk. Neither it centers the force of a blow poberly, like a Hammer would to, because it is only a trunk.

And you hilariously fail to realize why Tauren use those weapons to begin with. They have the physical build to exploit such weapons. They're huge weapons, yet Tauren can wield them much like a human wields a big two-handed sword, these aspects combined makes totems extremely efficient both defensively and offensively. Who cares if a totem doesn't cut, one smashed on your head by a massive minotaur-like creature is going to kill you instantly or, if you're lucky, having 3/4 of your bones shattered to splinters.

You don't really now how much weight a two handed sword has or why it has the shape it has, do you?

[Wildmoon]

Of course it is, being of a race puts overall limitations on someone. If you have a freak accident of a human that takes on stronger races and deals with them that is fine, but it is no longer fine if that freak accident beats another freak accidents of a race far superior to his own.

You are assuming one freak could not rise above another freak by some artificial potential cap. We don't know the limit of human nor tauren and we don't know how close Lothar and Cairne are to it.

[Zoldor]

Go watch a bull fight and tell me a simple stab to any portion would bring down Cairne. I think some of you might be pretty much city folks only. Go fuck with a cow sometime and come back and tell me how you think you'd fair if the cow was 8 foot standing, had the brain of one of the most accomplished warriors who spent their entire lives fighting off other similiarly strong races, while you "trained" against other humans. I'm sorry Lothar was a badass, but Cairne might be the most devastating warrior to walk the Warcarft universe. Up there with Rexxar and Brox. Still I think he'd take both of them as well with Rexxar being the biggest challenge.

Go watch the guy who plays the mountain and Connar McGregor spar and listen to the Mountain guy talk about it afterwards. I know TV and Movies have led people to believe that small agile gritty fighters can take equally skilled big guys, but it just isn't true in 90% of the situations.

As to the weapon, you have to remember wielding a Totem is almost like wielding a staff is to a human. It would also work as a way to take a slashing weapon from an opponent in a blocking situation as its and its a reach weapon in the hands of someone who already has a few feet of reach on you. Of all the wow races I'd least like to fuck with a tauren. And I don't even like them that much in game besides how cool looking Thunderbluff is.

[Wildmoon]

Go watch a bull fight and tell me a simple stab to any portion would bring down Cairne. I think some of you might be pretty much city folks only. Go fuck with a cow sometime and come back and tell me how you think you'd fair if the cow was 8 foot standing, had the brain of one of the most accomplished warriors who spent their entire lives fighting off other similiarly strong races, while you "trained" against other humans. I'm sorry Lothar was a badass, but Cairne might be the most devastating warrior to walk the Warcarft universe. Up there with Rexxar and Brox. Still I think he'd take both of them as well with Rexxar being the biggest challenge.

Go watch the guy who plays the mountain and Connar McGregor spar and listen to the Mountain guy talk about it afterwards. I know TV and Movies have led people to believe that small agile gritty fighters can take equally skilled big guys, but it just isn't true in 90% of the situations.

Lothar didn't only fight against other human. Ogre would smash everyone 1v1 if big guys rule in WarCraft. That's not the case.

[Combatbutler]

You are assuming one freak could not rise above another freak by some artificial potential cap. We don't know the limit of human nor tauren and we don't know how close Lothar and Cairne are to it.

Assuming a freak human is superior to a freak tauren is far too unlikely in my opinion, agree with it or not. At the end of day lothar is only human.

Lets just agree to disagree

[Wildmoon]

Assuming a freak human is superior to a freak tauren is far too unlikely in my opinion, agree with it or not.

The point is to not assume. We don't know who will win. The "Bigger wins" argument simply doesn't work in WarCraft context.

[Deleted]

Go watch a bull fight and tell me a simple stab to any portion would bring down Cairne. I think some of you might be pretty much city folks only. Go fuck with a cow sometime and come back and tell me how you think you'd fair if the cow was 8 foot standing, had the brain of one of the most accomplished warriors who spent their entire lives fighting off other similiarly strong races, while you "trained" against other humans. I'm sorry Lothar was a badass, but Cairne might be the most devastating warrior to walk the Warcarft universe. Up there with Rexxar and Brox. Still I think he'd take both of them as well with Rexxar being the biggest challenge.

Go watch the guy who plays the mountain and Connar McGregor spar and listen to the Mountain guy talk about it afterwards. I know TV and Movies have led people to believe that small agile gritty fighters can take equally skilled big guys, but it just isn't true in 90% of the situations.

I don't think that its about agility only, but also about how well afighting technique is developed. Humans have a high developed Warfare in comparison to some other races. We can asume that they alrady have a well developed and refined Art of Swordsmanship and Martial Arts. Tauren on the other Hand are probably the most primitive and barbaric Race of them all. If we compare the general Armors, weapons and Shields, then it looks like even Trolls have a higher advanced Warfare. I say that Cairne may be skilled and experienced, but I think his pure technique is inferior to Lothars. And then there is even the Question, what kind of battle? Lothar was a Knight after all, he is still probably one of the best Warriors of Azeroth on his Feed, but the most dangerious he was probably in mounted combat.

[Zoldor]

Lothar didn't only fight against other human. Ogre would smash everyone 1v1 if big guys rule in WarCraft. That's not the case.

Ogres don't have the right mind for being a truly tested warrior. They also lack the stylistic and discipline of great warriors. They are more the big oaf. While Tauren are more like native Americans on steroids. They are too much rage and emotion. But Cho'Gall was quiet the badass. Yeah, humans didn't fight just humans, but they trained mostly against them especially their King who would have lived his life in mostly comfort until the Orcs showed up. The humans had it pretty good in the Eastern Kingdoms until the arrival of the Orcs.

[Deleted]

Ogres don't have the right mind for being a truly tested warrior. They also lack the stylistic and discipline of great warriors. They are more the big oaf. While Tauren are more like native Americans on steroids. They are too much rage and emotion. But Cho'Gall was quiet the badass. Yeah, humans didn't fight just humans, but they trained mostly against them especially their King who would have lived his life in mostly comfort until the Orcs showed up. The humans had it pretty good in the Eastern Kingdoms until the arrival of the Orcs.

Ogre seem to have much better Armors and Weapons than Tauren.

[Wildmoon]

Ogres don't have the right mind for being a truly tested warrior. They also lack the stylistic and discipline of great warriors. They are more the big oaf. While Tauren are more like native Americans on steroids. They are too much rage and emotion. But Cho'Gall was quiet the badass. Yeah, humans didn't fight just humans, but they trained mostly against them especially their King who would have lived his life in mostly comfort until the Orcs showed up. The humans had it pretty good in the Eastern Kingdoms until the arrival of the Orcs.

Llane had many adventures. Also humans had histories of war with various races before the arrival of the orcs.

[Zoldor]

I don't think that its about agility only, but also about how well afighting technique is developed. Humans have a high developed Warfare in comparison to some other races. We can asume that they alrady have a well developed and refined Art of Swordsmanship and Martial Arts. Tauren on the other Hand are probably the most primitive and barbaric Race of them all. If we compare the general Armors, weapons and Shields, then it looks like even Trolls have a higher advanced Warfare. I say that Cairne may be skilled and experienced, but I think his pure technique is inferior to Lothars. And then there is even the Question, what kind of battle? Lothar was a Knight after all, he is still probably one of the best Warriors of Azeroth on his Feed, but the most dangerious he was probably in mounted combat.

That might be because they didn't need the metal armor and based on the lands they lived in it wouldn't be nearly as useful. You don't see knights rocking full plate in a desert area for a reason, or hot dry airid areas like the Barrens and Durotar would be. That is also a cultural thing as well based on where the characters concepts come from. Lothar would have to avoid being struck at all while getting to the reach range. We know Cairne is a qualified warrior as he stood his ground at 106 against Garrosh. We have the fight descriptions.

Human tech, mass armies are the way they won fights against these races, not in one on one battles. The reason their military technique had to be more evolved is because in a hand to hand situation they'd get destroyed one on one. Cairne does a war stomp and brings down an entire rock pass to block centaurs in WC3. It just isn't he's bigger its he's insanely powerful. If we are talking a 1v1 battle its going to be a tough tough win for Lothar and honestly, he'd never get himself in that situation because he'd know he was too out matched.

I'm not knocking Lothar he is a badass a great military commander and probably the strongest human warrior...maybe...its tough to gauge Arthas and Varian. But in a 1 on 1 I'm dumping my gold in Cairne's bucket everyday.

[Deleted]

That might be because they didn't need the metal armor and based on the lands they lived in it wouldn't be nearly as useful. You don't see knights rocking full plate in a desert area for a reason, or hot dry airid areas like the Barrens and Durotar would be. That is also a cultural thing as well based on where the characters concepts come from. Lothar would have to avoid being struck at all while getting to the reach range. We know Cairne is a qualified warrior as he stood his ground at 106 against Garrosh. We have the fight descriptions.

Human tech, mass armies are the way they won fights against these races, not in one on one battles. The reason their military technique had to be more evolved is because in a hand to hand situation they'd get destroyed one on one. Cairne does a war stomp and brings down an entire rock pass to block centaurs in WC3. It just isn't he's bigger its he's insanely powerful. If we are talking a 1v1 battle its going to be a tough tough win for Lothar and honestly, he'd never get himself in that situation because he'd know he was too out matched.

I'm not knocking Lothar he is a badass a great military commander and probably the strongest human warrior...maybe...its tough to gauge Arthas and Varian. But in a 1 on 1 I'm dumping my gold in Cairne's bucket everyday.

He fought a good and close battle against Orgrim Doomhammer as a old Man, far past his prime and a Tauren is probably less agile than an Orc.

Also, being experienced doesn't mean you have a superior fighting Technique. A young Knight would probably still beat an old Warrior, because he had a better training and learned better to use his Weapon in the best way.

[Zethras]

Bigger doesn't automatically make you win. Varian would have lost to Garrosh by your logic. He won.

Varian spent years and years learning how to fight orcs in 1v1 combat in the arena he was held in. Plus, you know, Lo’gosh.

[Combatbutler]

The point is to not assume. We don't know who will win. The "Bigger wins" argument simply doesn't work in WarCraft context.

We know cairne could keep up with a strong orc warrior and was beating him, until the poison kicked, who beat thrall in terms of warrior skills, who has beaten Orgrim doomhammer, who killed lothar, despite being ancient.

[jellmoo]

This is silly. There are three ways to look at it:

1. In terms of gameplay: This offers us nothing as game mechanics are completely abstract.
2. In terms if narrative: The problem here is that you can simply write the outcome of the fight and fit the details to it
3. In terms of real world possibility: Here is the discussion at hand.

Take the greatest fighter in the world today. Then have him fight an equally amazing fighter, only this fighter is 5 feet taller, 600 pounds heavier, has a much thicker hide, natural weapons, and a 5 foot reach advantage. Who do you think would win?

If Lothar completely outclassed Cairne in terms of skills, there might be a contest, but nothing seems to support that. We have the pinnacle of one race fighting the pinnacle of another, only one of those races has a series of tremendous advantages. Having an opponent twenty times your physical strength is a huge wall to climb.

*Could* Lothar win? Sure. Is he likely to win? No. No he is not.

[Wildmoon]

We know cairne could keep up with a strong orc warrior and was beating him, until the poison kicked, who beat thrall in terms of warrior skills, who has beaten Orgrim doomhammer, who killed lothar, despite being ancient.

Thrall beat Orgrim who was not the Orgrim Lothar faced if you know what I mean. Not to mention that Lothar fought prime Orgrim when he was pretty old.

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Varian spent years and years learning how to fight orcs in 1v1 combat in the arena he was held in. Plus, you know, Lo’gosh.

That's not an argument. The point is humans can be a warrior as strong as orcs or taurens. Varain was kicking some serious asses in arena before he awakened his Lo'Gosh power. Pure Physical strength is not everything. Varian beat a blademaster who was supposed to be you know master of blade. Orc is supposed to be stronger too right? He beheaded a two-headed orgre who was supposed to have huge strength advantage.