Protection legion Discussion

[Moggers1990]

I'm 99% sure Impending Victory is meant to heal for the same amount as a normal Victory Rush, it's probably just bugged. No need to get your knickers in a twist over it.
Also on the talent calculator on MMO it doesn't actually say it replaces Victory Rush, it does on live. Can't check the Alpha to see if it does or not. But maybe it's not meant to?

Second Wind was dogshite, both in PvP and PvE. Who needs a slow HP regen between mobs while leveling when you have Victory Rush anyway? Plus if you're waiting over 5 seconds to pull the next mob you're pretty damn slow either way, would be faster to sit down and eat. Same thing with Dungeons, you have a healer who heals you between pulls- again pointless.
In Arena, again it was shit. The only way it would be useful is if you could somehow leap away and get out of LoS of someone for an extended period of time during very rare 1v1 scenarios. I can't think of a class that we could outrun for longer than 10 seconds.
You can only really justify Second Wind in BG's where you have a battle mid map or in the enemy base then getting to the next base or fight it'll heal you up, still not a big deal though.

Don't get me started on Inspiring Presence, sucks that we lose the heal when we have to take it for the raid. But in PvP, it would not have healed you the way you think it would. There's a reason no one takes the current Second Wind, and that's 25% Leech.

Safeguard actually looks good. Don't forget we have 2-3(?) charges of Intervene which we can use back-to-back for a long duration of the buff. That's a pretty decent amount of damage mitigation, plus this gives us more rage to play with while not tanking which is my biggest problem with rage from damage taken.
Complaining about the PvP side of things, this talent is amazing for PvP. 100x better than Second Wind ever was.

[Valech]

I'm 99% sure Impending Victory is meant to heal for the same amount as a normal Victory Rush, it's probably just bugged. No need to get your knickers in a twist over it.
Also on the talent calculator on MMO it doesn't actually say it replaces Victory Rush, it does on live. Can't check the Alpha to see if it does or not. But maybe it's not meant to?

Second Wind was dogshite, both in PvP and PvE. Who needs a slow HP regen between mobs while leveling when you have Victory Rush anyway? Plus if you're waiting over 5 seconds to pull the next mob you're pretty damn slow either way, would be faster to sit down and eat. Same thing with Dungeons, you have a healer who heals you between pulls- again pointless.
In Arena, again it was shit. The only way it would be useful is if you could somehow leap away and get out of LoS of someone for an extended period of time during very rare 1v1 scenarios. I can't think of a class that we could outrun for longer than 10 seconds.
You can only really justify Second Wind in BG's where you have a battle mid map or in the enemy base then getting to the next base or fight it'll heal you up, still not a big deal though.

Don't get me started on Inspiring Presence, sucks that we lose the heal when we have to take it for the raid. But in PvP, it would not have healed you the way you think it would. There's a reason no one takes the current Second Wind, and that's 25% Leech.

Safeguard actually looks good. Don't forget we have 2-3(?) charges of Intervene which we can use back-to-back for a long duration of the buff. That's a pretty decent amount of damage mitigation, plus this gives us more rage to play with while not tanking which is my biggest problem with rage from damage taken.
Complaining about the PvP side of things, this talent is amazing for PvP. 100x better than Second Wind ever was.

I agree except for your impression of Second wind´s usefulness in BGs. You seem to have never experienced the pain while being kited and mindgamed around a pillar /up and down a staircase by a nearly dead target, while it slowly regains health.

[mindw0rk]

Pretty much every single warrior I saw in BGs, prot or arms, was using Second Wind. With it warriors could top healing charts sometimes.
It had alot of uses in arenas too since there are often situations when your healer is in long cc chain, so you can leap away behind pillar and with Second Wind regen there.

As for intervene charges... what charges? There isnt intervene anymore, it was merged into intercept. And after they removed Double Time, you have only 1 charge of it every 20 seconds. Also keep in mind, that with Artifact trait when you intercept to friendly target, you redirect 3 hits on him by default. So if in 6 seconds your target recieved only 3 hits, Safeguard did nothing for him. And there usually not many more hits you can fit in 6 seconds, so its not as amazing as you think. If I remember correctly, pre patch version of Safeguard allowed to give friendly target damage reduction without intercepting to him, which was miles better then it is now.

[Marok]

1. What does Versatility do to our rage gain? Is it a linear reduction in rage based on the gain in damage reduction from versatility, or is versatility not intended to affect rage gain at all?
2. Indomitable currently lowers our rage gain. Is that intended?
3. Ancestral Vigor currently lowers our rage gain. Is that intended?
4. Last Stand currently lowers our rage gain. Is that intended?
5. Motion, stun and knockback currently cancel the defensive portion of Neltharion's Fury. Is that intended?
6. What is the proc chance on Scales of Earth?

There are of course more questions I'd like answered, but they're ignoring stuff in the Theorycrafting thread that doesn't relate to Theorycrafting, for the most part. And, yes, I know some of my questions are borderline, but I'd at least like to know about Versatility.

Also, has anyone actually tested whether or not we gain rage from the unblocked portion of a block event? I assume we do, since it seems like we'd be rage starved otherwise, but I've not seen anyone test it to make sure.

I think I can answer most of these.

Another way to think about the rage gen formula is: 2% of Max HP Lost (from health/absorb) = 1 rage. Simple as that. What this means is that rage gen does not scale with DR in any way. So to answer your question about Vers, it affects rage gen in the same way all other DR does, you don't gain rage from the removed damage.

2/3/4 ) Yes. Higher stam will reduce our rage generation.

5 ) Most likely. I image their mentality around that is you need to learn when to use it when there's no knockbacks, stuns, etc. In doing so it makes using the ability require more "skill", however, I completely disagree with that mentality and so does basically everyone that has been leaving feedback. It doesn't make it more skillful, it's just frustrating. Hopefully they change it.

6 ) I'll bring that up in the Theorycrafting Questions thread.

As for gaining rage from the unblocked portion of a block, yes, we gain rage from that damage. Again it's simply 2% Max HP lost = 1 rage.

[Moggers1990]

I agree Second Wind could be useful in BG's to kite/heal up, but those cases are so rare and even rarer in arena that it'll be bad design to have a talent only useful for those situations. The amount of freedoms/speed increases melee have nowadays it'll be pretty hard to keep someone kited for long enough to do more healing than what Impending Victory would. And with Warriors topping healing charts, that's Second Wind topping them after fights are finished, not healing when it's actually needed during fights. Actual efficient healing is only about 20% of that number.

And sorry, i meant Intercept rather than Intervene, same shit pretty much. Was also mistaken about the charges, forgot about losing Double Time and thought the artifact trait gave a charge, but it's more hits taken. Even still, a lot of the time its not about the number of hits the other tank or whatever takes, it's the incoming big hit that we can help mitigate (obviously it's no Vigilance, but still helps).

But the main point i made was it being better in PvP than Second Wind. As a Prot Warrior, who is going to focus you? No one with any sort of brain power, so why would Second Wind help you there? Being able to mitigate 20% of the next 6 seconds worth of damage on your healer on a 20 second CD is insane, not including the 3 hits you actually take off them. Intercept on it's own can completely negate any CC on your partner during burst, and then Safeguard prolongs that into less damage taken by them. And they're gonna take a lot more than 3 hits from a double melee team for example. Also gives you more rage to damage them.. Win/win surely?

[Beardyface]

I think I can answer most of these.

Another way to think about the rage gen formula is: 2% of Max HP Lost (from health/absorb) = 1 rage. Simple as that. What this means is that rage gen does not scale with DR in any way. So to answer your question about Vers, it affects rage gen in the same way all other DR does, you don't gain rage from the removed damage.

2/3/4 ) Yes. Higher stam will reduce our rage generation.

5 ) Most likely. I image their mentality around that is you need to learn when to use it when there's no knockbacks, stuns, etc. In doing so it makes using the ability require more "skill", however, I completely disagree with that mentality and so does basically everyone that has been leaving feedback. Hopefully they change it.

6 ) I'll bring that up in the Theorycrafting Questions thread.

As for gaining rage from the unblocked portion of a block, yes, we gain rage from that damage. Again it's simply 2% Max HP lost = 1 rage.

Thanks, Marokk. I still wonder what they're thinking with Indomitable, though. Indomitable will never be a choice over Never Surrender. Some of their talents are bad overall but useful in niche situations. Right now they could remove Indomitable entirely and just have two talents in that row and it would actually be better for the game, as Indomitable is a trap that will cause players who don't know the rage gain formula (read: most all players) to take more overall damage in all situations.

I get Last Stand, in that it's a self heal, and I sort of get Ancestral Vigor, but Indomitable makes no sense.

And I don't get the rage formula either. Why involve our max health? Why not just base it off our stamina:

(50 * Damage Taken) / (60 * Stamina).

[full disclosure: I don't know if that's the stam to health formula - it's just my max health divided by my stam value on live]

Change Toughness and Indomitable to health increases rather than stam increases and you'd be good to go.

[mindw0rk]

But the main point i made was it being better in PvP than Second Wind. As a Prot Warrior, who is going to focus you? No one with any sort of brain power, so why would Second Wind help you there? Being able to mitigate 20% of the next 6 seconds worth of damage on your healer on a 20 second CD is insane, not including the 3 hits you actually take off them. Intercept on it's own can completely negate any CC on your partner during burst, and then Safeguard prolongs that into less damage taken by them. And they're gonna take a lot more than 3 hits from a double melee team for example. Also gives you more rage to damage them.. Win/win surely?

Second Wind has its uses in arena for sure. Warr will defend his partner with Bodyguard too which will mitigate huge physical dmg plus he can keep melees slowed by 90% (!!!). It would be very hard to kill healer so teams would fo sure make switches especially if they have casters.

Problem is Safeguard only viable in arenas, nowhere else. They removed Second Wind for being not viable in raids but added another talent that only viable in arenas? Doesnt makes sense for me. Inspiring Presence also is only usable in raids. Why they giving talents that only useful in one specific area instead of giving us good flexible talents which give benefits in any situations?

[Deleted]

Pretty much every single warrior I saw in BGs, prot or arms, was using Second Wind. With it warriors could top healing charts sometimes.
It had alot of uses in arenas too since there are often situations when your healer is in long cc chain, so you can leap away behind pillar and with Second Wind regen there.

As for intervene charges... what charges? There isnt intervene anymore, it was merged into intercept. And after they removed Double Time, you have only 1 charge of it every 20 seconds. Also keep in mind, that with Artifact trait when you intercept to friendly target, you redirect 3 hits on him by default. So if in 6 seconds your target recieved only 3 hits, Safeguard did nothing for him. And there usually not many more hits you can fit in 6 seconds, so its not as amazing as you think. If I remember correctly, pre patch version of Safeguard allowed to give friendly target damage reduction without intercepting to him, which was miles better then it is now.

If second wind is so good perhaps your suggestion should be to make it a pvp talent.

[mindw0rk]

If second wind is so good perhaps your suggestion should be to make it a pvp talent.

It was my suggestion from the beginning. Though I dont see it as reliable sustain (would much more prefer heal tied to SS), but its better then nothing or Impending Victory in its current form

[Stagga24]

Ok while i think the rage formula could be better maybe i can shed the smallest inkling of positivitey on it.

It doesn't reduce the amount of rage you regen its just means you don't hit a lower percent as quickly which means other stats are better than stamina but a large health pool will mean you go down slower (so generate rage slower) but then again the slower you go down the more times you can pop shield slam etc to gain more rage. So if my thinking is correct if someone with say 2mil health and 3mil health to consistent damage to 50% they would the same amount of rage from damage taken but the guy with 3Mil health would have gotten more shield slams in so by the time he hits 50% he would actually have more rage then a person with less stamina.

[Deleted]

Ok while i think the rage formula could be better maybe i can shed the smallest inkling of positivitey on it.

It doesn't reduce the amount of rage you regen its just means you don't hit a lower percent as quickly which means other stats are better than stamina but a large health pool will mean you go down slower (so generate rage slower) but then again the slower you go down the more times you can pop shield slam etc to gain more rage. So if my thinking is correct if someone with say 2mil health and 3mil health to consistent damage to 50% they would the same amount of rage from damage taken but the guy with 3Mil health would have gotten more shield slams in so by the time he hits 50% he would actually have more rage then a person with less stamina.

Well, it is true to a certain degree, you will generate more rage if you follow your theory.
However, you want to have as much rage as possible and as soon as possible(imo), and a large portion comes from damage taken.
Having a higher health pool, which is usefull don't get me wrong VS faster rage regen. In my book rage regen wins, it can be spend on IP's and SB's, which are better to use as a tank.
(Active)Mitigation>healthpool, stresses the healers out way less and makes you survive certain boss abilities.

[Breccia]

Ok while i think the rage formula could be better maybe i can shed the smallest inkling of positivitey on it.

It doesn't reduce the amount of rage you regen its just means you don't hit a lower percent as quickly which means other stats are better than stamina but a large health pool will mean you go down slower (so generate rage slower) but then again the slower you go down the more times you can pop shield slam etc to gain more rage. So if my thinking is correct if someone with say 2mil health and 3mil health to consistent damage to 50% they would the same amount of rage from damage taken but the guy with 3Mil health would have gotten more shield slams in so by the time he hits 50% he would actually have more rage then a person with less stamina.

I'm not convinced this is the full story. Yes, both tanks get the same Rage from damage taken if they both take 50% health in damage. And, against the same boss monster, yes the 3Mil tank will actively earn more Rage by proxy of taking longer to get 50% of his health removed. But that's just another way of saying the 3Mil tank is getting less Rage.

Shield Slam will run more or less like clockwork. Everyone's hitting that on cooldown. The 3Mil tank will not earn significantly more Rage in the same amount of time as the 2Mil tank due to Shield Slam. Now, he might get more from Revenge, since the 3Mil tank almost certainly has higher Crit and therefore Parry. But higher Parry also coincides with less Rage from damage taken.

And then comes the kicker: boss mechanics typically also run like clockwork. If the boss throws out a 1Mil damage nova every 30 seconds (just to use some random example), the 2Mil tank will actually very likely be in better shape for it. He'll take a few more hits through his lower Parry (which I admit ain't great, but that's part of the problem with the current mechanic) and what damage he does take will fuel his Rage income. They'll both earn through Shield Slam and Revenge on CD, and they'll both very likely use Shield Block on CD. Overall, the 3Mil tank will very likely simply have less rage than the 2Mil tank when that 30 seconds ends, and here comes the nova. You can think of it in a few ways: he's either less likely to have IPs ready, or he's less likely to have the rage for two IP's banked, or if the damage overall is high enough, he's less likely to have much left from his previous IP casting to eat much of that nova. This just inherently leads to a situation where the 3Mil tank takes more damage in bursts every 30 seconds, either because of lack of IP, or lack of Rage after IP to augment Shield Block.

And after that nova, the healers are going to be busy. A tank that takes more damage at the same time everyone else isn't helpful. Granted with 3Mil health he probably won't die, but he will eat heals that could go to someone else. That sounds both spikey and mana-spongy to me.

While this was a hypothetical example, anyone who has raided knows DBM and the like are built around timers. Bosses do large, typically unblockable, attacks in set intervals. Earning less Rage in the same time, for the same content, is not an endearing trait, and one most other tanks don't share.

[Beardyface]

The spec will be functional, yes, but that's not what we're fighting for. We're fighting for it to be fun and intuitive. Right now, any WoW player who hasn't kept up with the forums or the tweets doesn't know about this backwards rage formula. They don't know they should be opting for Haste and Mastery and avoiding Versatility and Crit. THey don't know they should be avoiding Stam + Dmg Reduction trinkets and aiming for STR DPS trinkets. They don't know that you should never take Indomitable in any situation. There was a big push not so long ago by the devs to make the game more transparent, and this flies completely in the face of that. There's nothing in the game that tells them any of these things, and the design of the spec and abilities (minus the hidden formulas for Rage Gain and IP Calculation) make it look like you should do all the above things that you should not.

It's the definition of counter-intuitive.

It's also not fun. It's not fun that our artifact ability is useless in many, many situations. I get that they're trying to up the skill cap by making us choose when we have to stand still, and honestly, I don't hate that decision. What I do hate is that there are so many situations, especially in dungeons (which is the content I'm planning on maining), where you lose both the Offensive and Defensive properties of the artifact ability due to frequent and unpredictable knockbacks and stuns.

There are some super minor changes that would go a long way in fixing this:

- Change the rage formula to this: (50 * Damage Taken) / (60 * Stamina), and change Toughness and Indomitable to health increases rather than Stam increases.
- Change IP back to it's original formula: scaling with Stam (I looked through almost this entire thread looking for the original formula but couldn't find it. Anyone still have it?)
- Change Neltharion's Fury so that it's defensive properties are not cancelled during knockbacks or stuns. They really seem to want the channel, and they really seem to want us to stand still, which is fine, but knockbacks and stuns make this useless.

Just those three changes would go a long way in improving the spec, and they are all easy for them to make.

Sure, there are other problems, but those are the major ones IMO.

They listened to DKs after they were vocal. They listened to Brewmasters after they were vocal. They listened to DHs after they were vocal. They're even still iterating on pally because they are vocal.

We're the least vocal of the tanks, aside from Guardian, who have it really good this go round. I can't help but feel that the only reason we're not getting some changes is because we're not being vocal enough.

[Stagga24]

I'm not convinced this is the full story. Yes, both tanks get the same Rage from damage taken if they both take 50% health in damage. And, against the same boss monster, yes the 3Mil tank will actively earn more Rage by proxy of taking longer to get 50% of his health removed. But that's just another way of saying the 3Mil tank is getting less Rage.

Shield Slam will run more or less like clockwork. Everyone's hitting that on cooldown. The 3Mil tank will not earn significantly more Rage in the same amount of time as the 2Mil tank due to Shield Slam. Now, he might get more from Revenge, since the 3Mil tank almost certainly has higher Crit and therefore Parry. But higher Parry also coincides with less Rage from damage taken.

And then comes the kicker: boss mechanics typically also run like clockwork. If the boss throws out a 1Mil damage nova every 30 seconds (just to use some random example), the 2Mil tank will actually very likely be in better shape for it. He'll take a few more hits through his lower Parry (which I admit ain't great, but that's part of the problem with the current mechanic) and what damage he does take will fuel his Rage income. They'll both earn through Shield Slam and Revenge on CD, and they'll both very likely use Shield Block on CD. Overall, the 3Mil tank will very likely simply have less rage than the 2Mil tank when that 30 seconds ends, and here comes the nova. You can think of it in a few ways: he's either less likely to have IPs ready, or he's less likely to have the rage for two IP's banked, or if the damage overall is high enough, he's less likely to have much left from his previous IP casting to eat much of that nova. This just inherently leads to a situation where the 3Mil tank takes more damage in bursts every 30 seconds, either because of lack of IP, or lack of Rage after IP to augment Shield Block.

And after that nova, the healers are going to be busy. A tank that takes more damage at the same time everyone else isn't helpful. Granted with 3Mil health he probably won't die, but he will eat heals that could go to someone else. That sounds both spikey and mana-spongy to me.

While this was a hypothetical example, anyone who has raided knows DBM and the like are built around timers. Bosses do large, typically unblockable, attacks in set intervals. Earning less Rage in the same time, for the same content, is not an endearing trait, and one most other tanks don't share.

I was assuming all things equal. but even then if he had higher crit and thusly parry. If he parry's an attack then you didn't get rage because you DIDNT TAKE DAMAGE which is kinda redundant to be mad that you didn't get hit in the face to generate the stuff to help you not get hit in the face as hard?! I mean if you didn't take the damage then now your healer has that mana etc. so say he didn't have enough rage because he parried now he takes some damage from some white shots and gets his IP ready from that?

As for Beardy face first paragraph (still can't figure out the multi quote) - if they are that new they will go to icy-veins etc and it will say follow this cookie cutter stat prio. I mean hell i even do that on my alts i don't look deep into detail on why everything does what it does just hey whats best and the brief info.

in regards to the artifact - it hits like a truck and is a defensive on a semi short cd it should have some down side, and actually have to think about when to use it isn't so bad cuz you can prolly make a decision on if it's worth it or not. like Breccia said fights are on a timer you know if your going to get stunned/knocked back if you could run around with it and stuff it may be a little op some say the damage is already op and should be nerfed.

[Breccia]

If he parry's an attack then you didn't get rage because you DIDNT TAKE DAMAGE which is kinda redundant to be mad that you didn't get hit in the face to generate the stuff to help you not get hit in the face as hard?!

It goes deeply into the issues the spec has.
1) We have limited control over our resource. Blocking, parrying, or being hit generate different amounts of Rage.
2) We have to generate resources by being hit now, to prepare for damage that is coming later. If that dragon breath is coming, and you parry 3 hits in a row, you are not celebrating your good fortune.

[NightTrain32]

- Change the rage formula to this: (50 * Damage Taken) / (60 * Stamina), and change Toughness and Indomitable to health increases rather than Stam increases.
- Change IP back to it's original formula: scaling with Stam (I looked through almost this entire thread looking for the original formula but couldn't find it. Anyone still have it?)

Would we really want our rage and IP to both scale off of stamina? This would mean we would have decreased rage generation if we stacked stamina for increased IP. Unless you mean you want there to be some special break point that we will want to shoot for where we get just the right amount of rage from damage and just the right size of IPs. I am by no means defending the way it is currently but I believe we would at least want these two to scale off of some what different stats. Of course the best case would be going back to being in control of our rage and having IP scale with stamina, but that will not happen in this expansion most likely.

I was assuming all things equal. but even then if he had higher crit and thusly parry. If he parry's an attack then you didn't get rage because you DIDNT TAKE DAMAGE which is kinda redundant to be mad that you didn't get hit in the face to generate the stuff to help you not get hit in the face as hard?! I mean if you didn't take the damage then now your healer has that mana etc. so say he didn't have enough rage because he parried now he takes some damage from some white shots and gets his IP ready from that?

What I believe most people are trying to get at is if you do parry once or twice before some sort of ability that will deal you large damage and you need to be able to IP before hand and it might be difficult to reliably have the rage for IP every time. Now we can save up rage for these predictable abilities, but there are always unpredictable or rare situations where we might die because of this inability to have control of our rage, where other tank classes for the most part do not have to worry about lack of control over a resource.

Edit: Oh and Stagga24 if you want to do a multiquote you want to click the quote symbol with a plus symbol next to reply with quote on all of the posts you want to quote.

[Beardyface]

Would we really want our rage and IP to both scale off of stamina? This would mean we would have decreased rage generation if we stacked stamina for increased IP. Unless you mean you want there to be some special break point that we will want to shoot for where we get just the right amount of rage from damage and just the right size of IPs. I am by no means defending the way it is currently but I believe we would at least want these two to scale off of some what different stats. Of course the best case would be going back to being in control of our rage and having IP scale with stamina, but that will not happen in this expansion most likely.

I'm making the assumption that as we gear up and gain more stamina, the bosses will have to hit harder to pose a threat, and that those two numbers would scale in such a way that we don't generate a whole lot less rage, if any. That's also a problem they have to solve with the current formula.

The key point of this formula: (50 * Damage Taken) / (60 * Stamina), is to take Max health out of the equation so we aren't penalized for using Last Stand, Indomitable, Trinket Health Procs or being healed by a shaman. As long as they change Toughness (in the Artifact tree) and Indomitable to affect health instead of stamina, it would work fine, as Last Stand, Trinket Procs and Shaman healing only affect health, not stamina.

IP also scaling with stam means that if we stacked stam hard, we might get less rage, but we would also get bigger IPs to cover the gap. We'd be able to take stam trinkets and use stam flasks without hurting ourselves, since both our resource generation and our resource spender would scale together. As IP is currently, we have to forego stam trinkets, stam flasks, Indomitable, etc etc, to keep from gimping ourselves.

These posts explain the problem well:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39831566
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39969388

and this one is just fun to read:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39962435

[NightTrain32]

I'm making the assumption that as we gear up and gain more stamina, the bosses will have to hit harder to pose a threat, and that those two numbers would scale in such a way that we don't generate a whole lot less rage, if any. That's also a problem they have to solve with the current formula.

The key point of this formula: (50 * Damage Taken) / (60 * Stamina), is to take Max health out of the equation so we aren't penalized for using Last Stand, Indomitable, Trinket Health Procs or being healed by a shaman. As long as they change Toughness (in the Artifact tree) and Indomitable to affect health instead of stamina, it would work fine, as Last Stand, Trinket Procs and Shaman healing only affect health, not stamina.

IP also scaling with stam means that if we stacked stam hard, we might get less rage, but we would also get bigger IPs to cover the gap. We'd be able to take stam trinkets and use stam flasks without hurting ourselves, since both our resource generation and our resource spender would scale together. As IP is currently, we have to forego stam trinkets, stam flasks, Indomitable, etc etc, to keep from gimping ourselves.

I know the problem well as I have been following this thread and many others the whole alpha. I will give you that if you are going from one tier to another damage taken will increase, but if your gearing up while in the same tier of difficulty you will have a problem. But all in all I agree this would be a fix that would counter last stand and buffs that give health not stamina. I really just wanted to make sure you realized that there was also disadvantages and the best fix would be to find a good way to get rid of the stamina/health part of the rage gain formula (I am an engineer by trade so its second nature for me to nitpick I meant no offense).

[Beardyface]

I know the problem well as I have been following this thread and many others the whole alpha. I will give you that if you are going from one tier to another damage taken will increase, but if your gearing up while in the same tier of difficulty you will have a problem. But all in all I agree this would be a fix that would counter last stand and buffs that give health not stamina. I really just wanted to make sure you realized that there was also disadvantages and the best fix would be to find a good way to get rid of the stamina/health part of the rage gain formula (I am an engineer by trade so its second nature for me to nitpick I meant no offense).

No, no, you're not offending! It's good discussion, that's what the thread is for. Yes, you would plateau a little mid/late tier, but not as badly as you do now with IP scaling with attack power.

I don't even know what other stats you would be able to use in this formula without throwing it way out of whack. You have to use two or three things that scale over the course of the expansion, and which are found on all gear, so outside of attack power, strength, stamina and health, I don't know what you could use. Item level, I suppose, but that's really no better. Armor is too finicky, and secondary stats are out.

The only real solution is to remove the whole concept of rage from damage taken and revert it to what we have on live. We're all dumbfounded as to why they re-introduced this archaic concept in the first place.

[Deleted]

- Change IP back to it's original formula: scaling with Stam (I looked through almost this entire thread looking for the original formula but couldn't find it. Anyone still have it?)

Wasn't it simply 25% of your hp, later nerfed to 20%? it's probably in the original spec preview blog.

We're the least vocal of the tanks, aside from Guardian, who have it really good this go round. I can't help but feel that the only reason we're not getting some changes is because we're not being vocal enough.

Well, if quantity of feedback is a significant factor, without getting more people into the alpha, i guess the only way to do that is to tell every prot warrior you see in the alpha to go post on the forums.