[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

I've no doubt it would have looked pleasing, but it doesn't have the "wow factor" of wielding 2 swords, I mean who else have we seen in GoT who wields 2 swords? Daario is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, (though I can't remember whether its more of a sword and dagger combo) and he's a badass as well. It's something that makes him distinct, instead of being "generic bad guy #362".

I said in my first post that Dawn hadn't really been mentioned, but neither has Arthur Dayne to think about it. If you said to a show watcher, "holy shit Arthur Dayne is in this episode", they would have no clue who you are talking about, so they need something to set him apart, to make him look cooler than you average bad guy knight in armour, and dual wielding does that, especially in a show like GoT which generally has sword fighting realism nailed down.

and unfortunately "sword fighting purists" aren't generally a demographic that these TV shows aim at, because they are a very niche group.

I agree.
As a non purist I would find it weird to see a guy defending himself with a two handed sword, against 4 people around him that can poke him once he does his big swing. And that's because I know nothing about it.

And as stated, the non book readers know nothing about Arthur Dayne, so he needed a wow factor. For example people won't even know that it was Whent with him and will forget him very fast. On the other hand, they will remember Dayne.

[Ghâzh]

That argument isn't stupid it depends on how it is twisted.
Of course Gregor would shit on Tyrion, but who says that in their world the average man doesn't lift much more than us? Therefore making Gregor twice as strong as he would be in our world. And therefore the Average man can lift two longswords like daggers.

No one. Neither is anyone saying that is the case. When the rules aren't explained and they keep shifting and changing them to fit the plot it breaks the immersion and belief in the system to be possible in the first place.

Or it can be twisted like this. Who said that their steel is like our steel? What if their weapons are much lighter than ours (For example in Tolkien universe Elfe weapons were light as feathers), thus making it possible to use multiple weapons in an easy way.

The problem with duel wielding really isn't the weight. It's part of the problem but the bigger reason is the fact that you don't really gain anything by using two long weapons over one long and one short but you are actually crippling yourself (not only the weight but the length as well). Quite ironically, duel wielding in this specific scene, makes some small sense when you gain some reach around you with the wide swings and flourishes he does.

[Deleted]

Anyway, ep3 is done.



Onwards!

Guess that (almost) confirms the season spoilers that were posted here. Littlefinger will bring the Vale's armies down on the Boltons.

Yeap, and in the trailer of the season Sansa was wearing something that looked like Stark light armor.
They will work together (with Jon) and take back the North.

[Grimbold21]

Yeap, and in the trailer of the season Sansa was wearing something that looked like Stark light armor.
They will work together (with Jon) and take back the North.

Which still leaves one question unanswered: what's LF's endgame?

[Ghâzh]

The Arya storyline on the other hand, she was just blind on the streets 90% of her screentime this season and then they crammed a training montage at the last second and now her eyesight is back.

I agree with the awkwardly crammed training bit but I think the moment she drank the death water to regain her sight was the best moment of the episode. Literally gave me shivers.

[Jotaux]

The problem with duel wielding really isn't the weight. It's part of the problem but the bigger reason is the fact that you don't really gain anything by using two long weapons over one long and one short but you are actually crippling yourself (not only the weight but the length as well). Quite ironically, duel wielding in this specific scene, makes some small sense when you gain some reach around you with the wide swings and flourishes he does.

Well I would think a greatsword would be impractical when surrounded, so it should have been a 1h and shield combo but that doesn't look quite as cool as dual wielding swords. I would imagine that they are made from Valyrian steel which would make the weight a non issue.

[Deleted]

No one. Neither is anyone saying that is the case. When the rules aren't explained and they keep shifting and changing them to fit the plot it breaks the immersion and belief in the system to be possible in the first place.


The problem with duel wielding really isn't the weight. It's part of the problem but the bigger reason is the fact that you don't really gain anything by using two long weapons over one long and one short but you are actually crippling yourself (not only the weight but the length as well). Quite ironically, duel wielding in this specific scene, makes some small sense when you gain some reach around you with the wide swings and flourishes he does.

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I assume you speak of how HBO ruined the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne. First of all, he didn't dual wield. He had one main weapon: "Dawn". Secondly, Eddard never told Bran he beat Arthur, au contraire; he told Bran Dayne would've killed him if not for Reed. Not to mention the extremely poor choreography.

HBO is absolutely succeeding in their effort to ruin what started out as an amazing TV show, which someone who hasn't read the books will probably not notice.

[Gib Lover]

I agree with the awkwardly crammed training bit but I think the moment she drank the death water to regain her sight was the best moment of the episode. Literally gave me shivers.

Yeah the water drinking was great, the pacing on her story this season so far was pretty bad though.
IMO the storylines this season in order of quality:
Varys/Tirion
Jon and the Wall
Sansa and Co.
Iron Islands adventures
Kings Landing Shenanigans
Arya
Dany
a bucket of piss
daydreaming about what Gendry's up to
Littlefinger even though he isn't onscreen
watching a different show
sleeping
powergap
Dorne

edited in the storylines I forgot. I'm sure there are still more.

[Deleted]

No one. Neither is anyone saying that is the case. When the rules aren't explained and they keep shifting and changing them to fit the plot it breaks the immersion and belief in the system to be possible in the first place.

Maybe it's just me but I don't feel it that way. If you base your immersion on established rules, yeah I can understand that shifting them can be a pain in the arse and bother you.
But in a show with so much Fantasy it just doesn't bother me to sometimes come across stuff that "shouldn't be" because we are comparing them with our standards.
Though I don't really see where they have shifted the rules, it pretty much feels they never established any (about men's strenght) to start with.

The problem with duel wielding really isn't the weight. It's part of the problem but the bigger reason is the fact that you don't really gain anything by using two long weapons over one long and one short but you are actually crippling yourself (not only the weight but the length as well). Quite ironically, duel wielding in this specific scene, makes some small sense when you gain some reach around you with the wide swings and flourishes he does.

Ok. I would have thought that dual wielding two longswords was just a burden on the arms. That the benefit was having long range with both hands.

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Yeah the water drinking was great, the pacing on her story this season so far was pretty bad though.
IMO the storylines this season in order of quality:
Varys/Tirion
Jon and the Wall
Sansa and Co.
Iron Islands adventures
Kings Landing Shenanigans
Arya
Dany
a bucket of piss
daydreaming about what Gendry's up to
Littlefinger even though he isn't onscreen
watching a different show
sleeping
powergap
Dorne

edited in the storylines I forgot. I'm sure there are still more.

Dorne is not low enough

Well it's episode 3 and she recovered her eyes, now she will train properly. I think most people would have been pissed to see her getting beaten for half a season and getting nowhere.
Now she is truly no-one (or pretends well) and her real training will begin.

[Grimbold21]

Yeah the season so far is suffering from having too many plots being crammed in at the same time.

At least in previous seasons different plots or characters were being developed in the same place/region, so it was easier to grasp.

But now, it's various things happening simultaneasly but not being grown sufficiently.

[xuros]

Its amazing to me how a show with DRAGONS, ICE ZOMBIES, and woman that RESURRECTS people with MAGIC would be so butt hurt over a guy fighting with two swords and winning. Guess the show isnt in a fantasy genre any more?

[pateuvasiliu]

"Realism" as you stated is based on "our laws". The show isn't realist it's fantasy.

Magic rarely shows up in ASOIAF. Daenerys' dragons made it stronger, but people don't suddenly turn into power rangers when dragons are born.

The show might have moments of magic but for the most part abides to real world physics.

[Wyattbw09]

I'd like to take this moment to remind everybody crying about the pro's and con's of dual-wielding that it's a fantasy show. That's right, folks. Dragons and zombies and tits and magic and shit. And dual-wielding.

For a message board, to which most of its members play a fantasy game called World of Warcraft, to which the suspension of belief is paramount to enjoying the game, this board spends A LOT of time criticizing fantasy shows for their lack in realism.

[Deleted]

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I assume you speak of how HBO ruined the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne. First of all, he didn't dual wield. He had one main weapon: "Dawn". Secondly, Eddard never told Bran he beat Arthur, au contraire; he told Bran Dayne would've killed him if not for Reed. Not to mention the extremely poor choreography.

HBO is absolutely succeeding in their effort to ruin what started out as an amazing TV show, which someone who hasn't read the books will probably not notice.

More than the fight they ruined a whole plotline (Dorne).
The show was superb the first three seasons because it followed the books quite well, and the books didn't have too many different storylines to follow, so it fitted in the show.
Slowly but surely they understood that not everything would fit (which is normal) so they had to cut some stuff out. And destroy whole plotlines.
I wouldn't have gotten rid of Dorne for example, but that's their choice. A lot of choices D&D make will infuriate book readers, but we jut have to live with it, and be happy that they are still delivering a superb show for the non readers.
Even thought it's not as good as the books, it's still a very good show.

Yes I bicker and fight on some things that I find shitty (episode 1 of this seaosn for example), but that's the reader in me that's pissed. The other half is just happy there is a good show about it.

[Gib Lover]

Its amazing to me how a show with DRAGONS, ICE ZOMBIES, and woman that RESURRECTS people with MAGIC would be so butt hurt over a guy fighting with two swords and winning. Guess the show isnt in a fantasy genre any more?

People have already said this in more eloquent ways. It's literally being discussed right now, on this page.

[I Push Buttons]

I like more characters from the past than most characters from the present story.

Barristan in his prime, Rhaegar, Sir Arthur Dayne. If HBO decides they want to print more money and make a spinoff I hope its a prequel during this period.

[Deleted]

Its amazing to me how a show with DRAGONS, ICE ZOMBIES, and woman that RESURRECTS people with MAGIC would be so butt hurt over a guy fighting with two swords and winning. Guess the show isnt in a fantasy genre any more?

You don't understand how the brain works. Stories (whether these are told in books, films or games) should respect predefined rules of subjective realism within a specific realm. Directors/producers often make similar mistakes; Daredevil is able to 'see' drops of blood on the ground, cracks in the ceiling and obstacles on his path, yet, he is unable to track the ninjas because they, I quote: "mask their heartbeat".

When a story doesn't respect or define rules it stops being realistic in its own world, which as a consequence ruins immersion and annihilates credibility.

More than the fight they ruined a whole plotline (Dorne).
The show was superb the first three seasons because it followed the books quite well, and the books didn't have too many different storylines to follow, so it fitted in the show.
Slowly but surely they understood that not everything would fit (which is normal) so they had to cut some stuff out. And destroy whole plotlines.
I wouldn't have gotten rid of Dorne for example, but that's their choice. A lot of choices D&D make will infuriate book readers, but we jut have to live with it, and be happy that they are still delivering a superb show for the non readers.
Even thought it's not as good as the books, it's still a very good show.

Yes I bicker and fight on some things that I find shitty (episode 1 of this seaosn for example), but that's the reader in me that's pissed. The other half is just happy there is a good show about it.

Leaving out Dorne was a good decision in my humble opinion. All books were excellent and ever chapter was absolutely involving. Dorne's storyline was the least interesting to me.

[Deleted]

Magic rarely shows up in ASOIAF. Daenerys' dragons made it stronger, but people don't suddenly turn into power rangers when dragons are born.

The show might have moments of magic but for the most part abides to real world physics.

Actually it's never stated that they abide the law of physics. At least not the same laws of physics as ours, they can be similar but have a few twitches to them. And as I stated also, if we are talking pure physics where have they deviated? Serious question there so we can debate on it.

- Dragons
- Shadow murdering someone
- 100+ year old woman that looks 30
- Zombie
- Warlocks of Quarth
- Three eyed raven dude that lived 1k years
- Worgs
- Giants
- White walkers and their army.
- Dany being "unburned"
- People changing faces
- Water that kills you/gives back your eyesight.
- Resurected people (multiple times)
- Eggs that were lifeless for years, one fire and poof baby dragons
- Old prophecies about chosen Princes to fight the Darkness.

There is a lot of fantasy in the show. Shitloads of it even, and even more in the books.

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You don't understand how the brain works. Stories (whether these are told in books, films or games) should respect predefined rules of subjective realism within a specific realm. Directors/producers often make similar mistakes; Daredevil is able to 'see' drops of blood on the ground, cracks in the ceiling and obstacles on his path, yet, he is unable to track the ninjas because they, I quote: "mask their heartbeat".

When a story doesn't respect or define rules it stops being realistic in its own world, which as a consequence ruins immersion and annihilates credibility.



Leaving out Dorne was a good decision in my humble opinion. All books were excellent and ever chapter was absolutely involving. Dorne's storyline was the least interesting to me.

The Dorne plotline has hardly started in the books. We only know that Doran Martell has a masterplan (and the SS are onboard) to fuck the Lannisters big time, that he has people evrywhere etc. I find this really interesting because he has been very patient just to get revenge one day.
And being a very intelligent man the plan should be as good as anything Baelish or Varys can come up with

[Deleted]

Actually it's never stated that they abide the law of physics. At least not the same laws of physics as ours, they can be similar but have a few twitches to them. And as I stated also, if we are talking pure physics where have they deviated? Serious question there so we can debate on it.

- Dragons
- Shadow murdering someone
- 100+ year old woman that looks 30
- Zombie
- Warlocks of Quarth
- Three eyed raven dude that lived 1k years
- Worgs
- Giants
- White walkers and their army.
- Dany being "unburned"
- People changing faces
- Water that kills you/gives back your eyesight.
- Resurected people (multiple times)
- Eggs that were lifeless for years, one fire and poof baby dragons
- Old prophecies about chosen Princes to fight the Darkness.

There is a lot of fantasy in the show. Shitloads of it even, and even more in the books.

- - - Updated - - -



The Dorne plotline has hardly started in the books. We only know that Doran Martell has a masterplan (and the SS are onboard) to fuck the Lannisters big time, that he has people evrywhere etc. I find this really interesting because he has been very patient just to get revenge one day.
And being a very intelligent man the plan should be as good as anything Baelish or Varys can come up with

That's one, but I doubt it will change in quality. I cringed every time there was a Dorne chapter myself. Which doesn't mean it was poorly written, or bad story telling. It just wasn't as entertaining as everything else.

[eschatological]

Which still leaves one question unanswered: what's LF's endgame?

This is the best part that no one has even bothered to think about. D&D's writing and planning have literally fucked over LF's master plan.

There is no way Sansa, with Brienne in her service, will ever trust LF again. LF can't ally with the Starks (and even if he did, then he literally betrays Cersei who he manipulated). He can't rally the Vale to fight against Starks because the Vale already hate the Lannisters for Jon Arryn's death and the Starks are their natural allies in that fight. He can't fight the Starks with some borrowed Lannister army or something and win the fight against the Starks, because the North will never accept a Southern Lord as their Warden. He has no one left to put in as a puppet in Winterfell. Cersei will know he's betrayed her if he does anything but march against a Stark army re-taking Winterfell. About all he can do, feasibly, is sit in the Vale and do nothing.

And of course, it all started because he married Sansa off to the Boltons, the ultimate dumb move. Knowing what he knew at the time, he should have seen that there was no way that benefited him.