Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Lorentz]

I would hope that at this point talents are open to change. I still can't fathom why Assn has the Stealth talent row.

Makes me hopeful for a large talent rework.

I think if they had something in store they would release it asap to iterate. We pretty much haven't seen any changes for last 2 months give it or take so I'm sceptical

[Smaxy]

surprised u still have hope at this point

What else do we have but hope

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I think if they had something in store they would release it asap to iterate. We pretty much haven't seen any changes for last 2 months give it or take so I'm sceptical

This is true. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic.

[Skayaq]

What else do we have but hope

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This is true. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic.

Yes you are, I'm expecting these will more or less be our talents for the next 4+ years.

[Wow]

They've followed a pretty clear pattern with rogues for years and years. At the start of beta's they put in some work on rogues then they go quiet and you don't see anything or hear about anything for months then they move on to dmg tuning where they undertune rogue even if it was in a good spot. Then they buff the the dmg in x.1/x.2 and put some minor bandaids on other issues. And then refuse to fix big issues until the next big x.0 where they break more things than fix again.

This has been the case in every exp's beta I can remember.

Mop showed us that the only way we're getting fixes is if the rogue pop. drops like it did in 5.0.

Although with all the pruning, added rng, and demon hunters it may just happen.

[Deleted]

They've followed a pretty clear pattern with rogues for years and years. At the start of beta's they put in some work on rogues then they go quiet and you don't see anything or hear about anything for months then they move on to dmg tuning where they undertune rogue even if it was in a good spot. Then they buff the the dmg in x.1/x.2 and put some minor bandaids on other issues. And then refuse to fix big issues until the next big x.0 where they break more things than fix again.

This has been the case in every exp's beta I can remember.

Mop showed us that the only way we're getting fixes is if the rogue pop. drops like it did in 5.0.

Although with all the pruning, added rng, and demon hunters it may just happen.

It can all be resumed into this one sincere hearftfelt song.

*flashbacks of rogues killing enemies in slow motion*

[Skayaq]

Just a thought, if blizz insists that we keep shadow nova and our aoe should be multidotting with nightblade, what if shadow nova was changed to be somewhat similar to fire nova on live eg. "When an enemy afflicted by nightblade is hit by shuriken storm, it releases a shadow nova dealing x% of weapon damage as shadow to all other enemies within 8 yards."

[kalaratic]

Just a thought, if blizz insists that we keep shadow nova and our aoe should be multidotting with nightblade, what if shadow nova was changed to be somewhat similar to fire nova on live eg. "When an enemy afflicted by nightblade is hit by shuriken storm, it releases a shadow nova dealing x% of weapon damage as shadow to all other enemies within 8 yards."

well considering fire nova is basically the only reason enhancement can do big dick aoe, giving that to sub would make them strong in ST and AoE. u would have to make it do like 10% or something really low for it to do okay AoE

[Deleted]

well considering fire nova is basically the only reason enhancement can do big dick aoe, giving that to sub would make them strong in ST and AoE. u would have to make it do like 10% or something really low for it to do okay AoE

Well i don't mind if we are very ST if we do absurdly high dmg. But then again, we would be low low low 'small dick aoe' vs packs of mobs.

[Skayaq]

well considering fire nova is basically the only reason enhancement can do big dick aoe, giving that to sub would make them strong in ST and AoE. u would have to make it do like 10% or something really low for it to do okay AoE

That's true, though a big part of fire nova damage was how easy it was to spread flameshock to many targets, and in return giving lots of targets triggering fire nova. We wouldn't have that and would be limited to how many targets we can manually apply nightblade within 16 sec.

[Smaxy]

in case anyones interested, I'm having no problems killing anything on Beta with current scaling. With MfD, we rip through mobs. Haven't run into any AoE situations that are too problematic either (it is much slower though), although of course, AoE demands of raiding will be ALOT higher than outdoor content.

our ST is tuned nicely

[kalaratic]

in case anyones interested, I'm having no problems killing anything on Beta with current scaling. With MfD, we rip through mobs. Haven't run into any AoE situations that are too problematic either (it is much slower though), although of course, AoE demands of raiding will be ALOT higher than outdoor content.

our ST is tuned nicely

could u be a bit more specific? like is there a big gap in our time-to-kill vs. mut or outlaw?

[shoegazing]

"CURRENT SUB SUCKS, CHANGE EVERYTHING"

Hmmmm, I agree.

This spec is an insult to the talents of every rogue

[Smaxy]

could u be a bit more specific? like is there a big gap in our time-to-kill vs. mut or outlaw?

10-20% faster than Mut 30-40% faster than Outlaw I'd say. And thats maybe on the conservative side. The main thing is that our finishers and openers just hit hard.. and you can make really good use of MfD leveling. Mut is good too at some of the more sustained stuff, but as far as going from killing basic mobs, we can kill them WAY before all of Mut's dots tick and all that, and then Outlaw has strength with AoE.

Shadowstrike and Eviscerate just hit hard. Nightblade hits hard too, usable on mobs with more HP. Combine that with MfD, Deepening Shadows procs so you basically always have SD if you need it, and Enveloping Shadows giving you tons of combo points (by refreshing it as you run around) and it makes a really smooth leveling experience. For AoE, Spam SS and Evisc focus a target with MfD resets and it gets the job done.

I also do like the passive regeneration of CP, even with Enveloping Shadows. I believe @madnesskhaz brought this up as a negative on official forums, but I like it. Makes it play differently than Assassination. Also I think I'm going to love min-maxing CPs with Deeper Strategem in raids.

The main issues for me are 1) AoE in a raid/dungeon scenario 2) boring talent customization options with little gameplay impact (along with artifact, I think this is a huge issue though tbh) 3) SS energy and SoD duration (along with tuning on stealth row being off)- I feel if this gets changed it'll make SD feel alot better... and again all this is from a PvE perspective.

Also, Soothing Darkness gets the job done IMO for world content. It works while you are in SD, btw so everytime you use SD, you get a nice heal.

I've also gotten used to having SS on a different keybind and its not bad tbh lol, people should probably focus on something different on forums imo... much more meaningful changes to be had i think. Maybe it matters alot to people, but I've already gotten over it and I think other issues are more pressing..

Worst thing is definitely that if you SS to a mob on a slightly different elevation, you can land in the world and then you DC ):

[Deleted]

quote

That was interesting to read. How did you find the spec's Energy, starved? And are we expected to overcap on CPs during raids?

I think there's little use complaining about SD bar. When the devs said they were waiting for feedback on the removal of SD's bar, I think they actually meant every player during the expansion; they are hung on the idea that there's a silent majority that may support their changes, so we need to wait until the expansion is released to prove them wrong.

[Smaxy]

That was interesting to read. How did you find the spec's Energy, starved? And are we expected to overcap on CPs during raids?

I think there's little use complaining about SD bar. When the devs said they were waiting for feedback on the removal of SD's bar, I think they actually meant every player during the expansion; they are hung on the idea that there's a silent majority that may support their changes, so we need to wait until the expansion is released to prove them wrong.

I wouldn't say energy starved is the right word, but yes we are low on energy. We do have lots of combo points though.. which equals energy through Relentless Strikes.

I can't see playing this spec without Anticipation or Deeper Stratagem. Vigor is basically useless IMO. It's just too many lost combo points otherwise. You can only take DS because of the 20% boost to finishers.

EDIT: Should note, you could very well need WAs to take DS over Anticipation for raiding. Tracking the CP gains- for leveling, the 20% on Eviscerate is tasty.

[Deleted]

10-20% faster than Mut 30-40% faster than Outlaw I'd say. And thats maybe on the conservative side. The main thing is that our finishers and openers just hit hard.. and you can make really good use of MfD leveling. Mut is good too at some of the more sustained stuff, but as far as going from killing basic mobs, we can kill them WAY before all of Mut's dots tick and all that, and then Outlaw has strength with AoE.

Shadowstrike and Eviscerate just hit hard. Nightblade hits hard too, usable on mobs with more HP. Combine that with MfD, Deepening Shadows procs so you basically always have SD if you need it, and Enveloping Shadows giving you tons of combo points (by refreshing it as you run around) and it makes a really smooth leveling experience. For AoE, Spam SS and Evisc focus a target with MfD resets and it gets the job done.

I also do like the passive regeneration of CP, even with Enveloping Shadows. I believe @madnesskhaz brought this up as a negative on official forums, but I like it. Makes it play differently than Assassination. Also I think I'm going to love min-maxing CPs with Deeper Strategem in raids.

The main issues for me are 1) AoE in a raid/dungeon scenario 2) boring talent customization options with little gameplay impact (along with artifact, I think this is a huge issue though tbh) 3) SS energy and SoD duration (along with tuning on stealth row being off)- I feel if this gets changed it'll make SD feel alot better... and again all this is from a PvE perspective.

Also, Soothing Darkness gets the job done IMO for world content. It works while you are in SD, btw so everytime you use SD, you get a nice heal.

I've also gotten used to having SS on a different keybind and its not bad tbh lol, people should probably focus on something different on forums imo... much more meaningful changes to be had i think. Maybe it matters alot to people, but I've already gotten over it and I think other issues are more pressing..

Worst thing is definitely that if you SS to a mob on a slightly different elevation, you can land in the world and then you DC ):

Finally after 130 pages of whining I can find some good info on rogues from a good player, not some 'hurr durr im a pirate' type of player crap or mr. lfr raider 'our artifact looks ugly boohoo' bulls*it. F*ck the new spell animations and f*ck the artifact looks I wanted to know how's the gameplay looking and had to wait this long. Thx Smaxy for info.

[Kukkaroinen]

I wouldn't say energy starved is the right word, but yes we are low on energy. We do have lots of combo points though.. which equals energy through Relentless Strikes.

I can't see playing this spec without Anticipation or Deeper Stratagem. Vigor is basically useless IMO. It's just too many lost combo points otherwise. You can only take DS because of the 20% boost to finishers.

EDIT: Should note, you could very well need WAs to take DS over Anticipation for raiding. Tracking the CP gains- for leveling, the 20% on Eviscerate is tasty.

I have had issues with Relentless Strikes. It didn't work at all on friday. Has that been fixed? Or maybe it's some talent I'm using it with. I've enjoyed Vigor so far but got to try the other ones aswell.

[Smaxy]

Finally after 130 pages of whining I can find some good info on rogues from a good player, not some 'hurr durr im a pirate' type of player crap or mr. lfr raider 'our artifact looks ugly boohoo' bulls*it. F*ck the new spell animations and f*ck the artifact looks I wanted to know how's the gameplay looking and had to wait this long. Thx Smaxy for info.

no problem. im hitting 110 tmrw if there are no more serious issues (tons of phasing issues while i was awake today otherwise id probably be 110 already) so if you have any questions ask away.


all-in-all, the spec is quite pleasant to level IMO.. i think this is mostly due to MfD resets combined with us gaining energy on finishers. we just have to hope that the artifact brings us up to enjoyable gameplay when we DONT have tons of MfD resets per minute.

main things for me are 1) more talents with meaningful gameplay choices 2) an AoE option for dungeons/raids 3) some tweaking with Shadowstrike/Symbols of Death/Shadow Dance/Stealth talent row in making that work better (i dont think they're going to scrap or redo any of that this late in the process). look forward to thoughts here and on official forums

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I have had issues with Relentless Strikes. It didn't work at all on friday. Has that been fixed? Or maybe it's some talent I'm using it with. I've enjoyed Vigor so far but got to try the other ones aswell.

Ive had no issues with Relentless Strikes, getting back energy- what talents are you running besides Vigor? I'm running Master of Sub, Nightstalker, Deeper Stratagem, Soothing Darkness, Prey on the Weak, Enveloping Shadows, and Marked for Death.

I'll mess around with Vigor tomorrow and see how that feels

[Deleted]

Heya guys, im making some notes about my experience so far which ill probably use to write a post on the beta forums at some point (for all the good it'll do). Figured I might aswell drop what I got so far to see what others think:

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Pros / wats fun:
-New animations are great
-Shadowblade is a nice thematic change, it doesn't feel very new (basically rupture with shadow damage.) but its nice to have rupture changed to be related to the spec fantasy (and the slow cements the rogues as a class that can control fights in pvp, which is neat)
Shadow dance makes the spec faster, I thoroughly enjoyed old shadow dance for the optimalisation and 10 seconds of glory possibility it gave. Now it feels more reactive, after all you can still pool charges to use them along with longer cooldown trinkets or whatnot but have it be a constant boost aswell. I reckon utilising the new shadow dance perfectly will be a lasting challenge, which is great!
-crimson vial is nice, feels a bit better than recuperate for when you're in a pinch, longer fights it hurts our survivability however - I don't see this being a problem (sub still feels very tanky)

Cons / things that are not fun:
-Boring flat % damage cooldowns. Both shadow blades & Symbols of death fall under this category. This isnt class fantasy or entertaining. It's grunt work with very little payoff, its not interactive and feels alltogether lazy design wise.Especially considering most fun interactive abilities were removed. This makes me wonder if nothing learned from the wod pruning? (Think abilities like shadow reflection,smoke bomb.)
-the subtlety artifact looks terrible. Who thought it'd be fun to have two caveman teeth pokers on a stick? The only remotely acceptable appearance is venombite, which I reckon is the look everyone will use - look wise certain vanilla daggers look better than the artifact, dissapointing)
-because of DR the strike from the shadows talent is useless. I dont see any situation where it will be viable after you realise everything you damage more than 5 seconds is immune to stuns.
-aoe feels like a weaker part of the spec, but I reckon this might be a design choice. You quickly max out on cp's with no aoe way of venting them (allows for some great single target damage or dot spreading though)

QoL suggestions:

-An indicator for backstab to show when/if you're behind your target.
-making shadowstep baseline isnt a con per-se, but it does feels pointless with shadowstrike in the mix, you could just as easily make friendlies jumpable with that ability.(Id personally much rather see something like the chain ability from outlaws, just with the shadowstep animation)
-bring back shadow reflection and remove dark soul , ehh I mean shadow blades.


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no problem. im hitting 110 tmrw if there are no more serious issues (tons of phasing issues while i was awake today otherwise id probably be 110 already) so if you have any questions ask away.


all-in-all, the spec is quite pleasant to level IMO.. i think this is mostly due to MfD resets combined with us gaining energy on finishers. we just have to hope that the artifact brings us up to enjoyable gameplay when we DONT have tons of MfD resets per minute.

main things for me are 1) more talents with meaningful gameplay choices 2) an AoE option for dungeons/raids 3) some tweaking with Shadowstrike/Symbols of Death/Shadow Dance/Stealth talent row in making that work better (i dont think they're going to scrap or redo any of that this late in the process). look forward to thoughts here and on official forums

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Ive had no issues with Relentless Strikes, getting back energy- what talents are you running besides Vigor? I'm running Master of Sub, Nightstalker, Deeper Stratagem, Soothing Darkness, Prey on the Weak, Enveloping Shadows, and Marked for Death.

I'll mess around with Vigor tomorrow and see how that feels

I quite enjoy vigor myself for levelling atleast, the extra energy generated from popping a charge of SD means you can burn through lvling mobs quickly. I reckon once we'll get more haste towards max level our energy regen will quicken up.. as it always has.

[Deleted]

I've also gotten used to having SS on a different keybind and its not bad tbh lol, people should probably focus on something different on forums imo... much more meaningful changes to be had i think. Maybe it matters alot to people, but I've already gotten over it and I think other issues are more pressing..

Getting used to this change was never a problem. Looks like you skipped some good in-depth posts about why this is broken.