Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[WhiteEagle888]

Different strokes for different folks. Making entire raids which most people (mainly the casuals) won't even see is ultimately not a good storytelling element in any RPG.

[Darththeo]

WotLK tackled one of the most interesting story lines of WoW and was still rolling on the insane popularity of Classic and TBC. By itself, WotLK hardly increased the subscription numbers by a huge amount and people started leaving when the LK story line was finished.

That's is half true ... they didn't start leaving after LK story line finished, they started to leave during Cata (which was the first expansion to end with lower number than it started). Cata also had serious walls even to 5 man content, having to find the Dungeon entrance to even do the dungeon finder, with an entry level dungeon to the expansion not available until the end of one of the starting zones.

Wrath only gained 5 million subs, that is true, but it still ended higher than when it started.

[Deleted]

The only point that my argument possibly falls short on is "don't have time". If you're too bad for questing or dungeons, if you have too few time for dungeons, if you hate socialiszing ... wow simply wasn't for you. And that's fine. Having a target audience is fine. Trying to accomodate every single person on the planet is not. Because it's literally impossible.

Raiding was NEVER the main point of WoW. Time and again, it has been shown that a very small percentage are doing top end raiding. Even with multiple difficulties, a lot of people don't raid. More than if there was only one difficulty though.

So, try to counterargue this:

1. Making a single raid difficulty won't make more people raid.
2. Making a single raid difficulty will in general not make people feel more succesful when they clear it (Since people who clear the "actual" raids, ie Mythic, already should feel somewhat accomplished for completing that. EDIT: To clarify, the ones clearing Mythic currently are the only ones who will ever clear the raid if a single difficulty is all there is).

Let's start with those two.

Edit:

Forgot a third:

3. Making a single raid difficulty won't make more people play the game.

[Deleted]

Bad comparison is bad. There are for fun soccer leagues that you could play where there is still competition but they are less strict on the quality of player allowed in ... you are still playing the same game "Soccer" but you don't have the same level of intensity. So, what you are saying is "Don't play WoW if you want to play WoW"

You sure put a lot of effort into mauling an analogy as long as it takes until it suits your argument

Here's a tip: An Analogy doesn't have to compare two things that are 100% alike. I can draw a comparison between two things based on even a single - or several (but not all) characteristics they share.

If I say "Boobs are like balls, they're both round" then "But boobs consist largely of fat tissue while balls are filled with air" DOES NOT MAKE MY ANALOGY WRONG. If you said "But boobs are not actually round" that'd make a counter point. Pointing out characteristics that aren't the same that I did not use to draw the analogy is not a counter argument. Holy shit why are people so stupid when it comes to this?

No two different things are 100% alike. That's why they are differnt. An analogy compares two (or more) things in certain characteristics. As long as these characteristics are comparable, it doesn't matter if there are other characteristics that do not match up.

Holy f***ing shit.

[Shakari]

The only point that my argument possibly falls short on is "don't have time". If you're too bad for questing or dungeons, if you have too few time for dungeons, if you hate socialiszing ... wow simply wasn't for you. And that's fine. Having a target audience is fine. Trying to accomodate every single person on the planet is not. Because it's literally impossible.

Thing is though, 90% of the player base falls into your "catagory" ... what happens then ... WoW closes, gee thats good, yup you made your point and got your changes but now there's not enough people to bother running the game ... well done.

I think the phrase your looking for would be "Pyrrhic victory"

.....

Any company will try and please as many people as it can, some will not be happy, but as long as the majority are then that's the best that will happen.

Raiders are not in the majority, so if your not one of those "happy" people then as has been said many times in this thread for others, maybe WoW isn't for you.

Going back to the Vanilla/TBC model of raiding is not catering to the Majority.

Ironically if you were around at the end of TBC it was one of the complaints, because you HAD to follow the fixed gearing route, the accessibility even among people wanting to raid was poor, it was one of the reasons badge gear was introduced.

But to promote and get people interested everyone should be able to see the content, the gear I agree should be limited, but seeing the content Harms no one and many gain from it.

[Golden]

You assume that everyone must see raids immediately. Which is false and that's the mistake of current Blizzard management as well. Everyone can see raids. If they are not social or skilled to see it immediately, they can see it later when outleveling/outgearing them.

That is if they wanted to see them in first place. Which is another mistake of current Blizzard management - they push everyone into raiding whether they want it or not and completely devastated leveling, dangerous world, exploration, which used to be main player's activity in WoW.

I hate to break it to you, but from what I've gathered from these forums, most non-raiders aren't as excited to see the raids as you think. I think many of them are happy enough to solo them at a later date. They put up with subsidizing raids because they don't have much choice and LFR softens the blow. If they were given a choice, I think they would prefer not pay for your raids at all and instead get new dungeons through the expansion.

Listening to raiders complain about exclusivity is a lot like listening to a homeless man complaining about the quality of food in the food line.

[Darththeo]

You sure put a lot of effort into mauling an analogy as long as it takes until it suits your argument

Here's a tip: An Analogy doesn't have to compare two things that are 100% alike. I can draw a comparison between two things based on even a single - or several (but not all) characteristics they share.

If I say "Boobs are like balls, they're both round" then "But boobs consist largely of fat tissue while balls are filled with air" DOES NOT MAKE MY ANALOGY WRONG. If you said "But boobs are not actually round" that'd make a counter point. Pointing out characteristics that aren't the same that I did not use to draw the analogy is not a counter argument. Holy shit why are people so stupid when it comes to this?

No two different things are 100% alike. That's why they are differnt. An analogy compares two (or more) things in certain characteristics. As long as these characteristics are comparable, it doesn't matter if there are other characteristics that do not match up.

Holy f***ing shit.

And you don't see how I already shown that your analogy is bad right? You are comparing something that has multiple difficulties to something you want to lack multiple difficulties. Seriously, your analogy is bad whether you accept that or not is your right, but I hope to see that I did essentially show that "boobs aren't round" which itself is wrong, as they are round, they aren't spheres though (which is what most people think of as balls). Though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Even your explanation of why I am wrong is bad example. Can you make a valid analogy once?

[Deleted]

/facepalm

Seriously? You think this is an argument? People want to play and experience wow, they don't have the same skill set as you do, they shouldn't play it because the game isn't for them? That's a great business attitude.

I can pull out Dark Souls again now. I am sure there are people who want to see it who are simply to bad to do so.

That's called a target audience. If you're not part of the target audience because you're too bad, have too few time, are too old to get the jokes or whatever the fuck the characteristics of a product's target audience are... then the product is not for you. Look for another product that better suits your needs.


Like ... do you write fucking letters to Comedy Central to complain about the fact that you do not enjoy their cartoons because they are too childish for you and it's bad business practice that they only cater to kids with these cartoons and not to you or do you just fucking switch the goddamn channel like any non retarded human being would?

[Deleted]

I can pull out Dark Souls again now. I am sure there are people who want to see it who are simply to bad to do so.

That's called a target audience. If you're not part of the target audience because you're too bad, have too few time, are too old to get the jokes or whatever the fuck the characteristics of a product's target audience are... then the product is not for you. Look for another product that better suits your needs.


Like ... do you write fucking letters to Comedy Central to complain about the fact that you do not enjoy their cartoons because they are too childish for you and it's bad business practice that they only cater to kids with these cartoons and not to you or do you just fucking switch the goddamn channel like any non retarded human being would?

It is a little ironic that you would say that. WoW currently has multiple difficulties, and you are complaining about it. So... Do you write letters to Comedy Central to complain about the fact that you do not enjoy their cartoons?

[Deleted]

That's is half true ... they didn't start leaving after LK story line finished, they started to leave during Cata (which was the first expansion to end with lower number than it started). Cata also had serious walls even to 5 man content, having to find the Dungeon entrance to even do the dungeon finder, with an entry level dungeon to the expansion not available until the end of one of the starting zones.

Wrath only gained 5 million subs, that is true, but it still ended higher than when it started.

And yet Cataclysms sub loss only started rolling AFTER the 5man dungeons had been nerfed. LOL

[Deleted]

People keep saying that the problem isn't exclusivity - it's the lack of content - but they don't realise it's all one and the same.

When content and gear is easy and you get it quickly, then so much of the incentives to play are just stripped away quickly. There is lots of content in this game, in all areas, but it's all boring, easy and rewards you farrrrrrrrr too much for too little effort. This is the point of the "casualisation" arguments. This leads to a situation where people feel like there isn't any content. In actuality there is a lot to do, but it feels pointless because you get far better stuff from sitting AFK in your garrison, or doing some other trivial task, which feels boring because it diminishes the quality of the reward by the trivial nature of the action.

Why bother going out farming stuff when it's all in your little plot of land? And to compound the problem, because everybody has shitloads of the mats because they all get it for free, everything diminishes in value making things even more pointless.

I remember back in Vanilla I farmed for an age to craft an EPIC helm through my Blacksmithing profession. I can't remember it's name now but I remember the awesome feeling of finally being able to craft it and put it on. It felt like a real accomplishment and my character felt stronger. It was real progression. That is a feeling almost lost in this game. Maybe some rare achievements give this feeling but I haven't encountered this in a while. I don't think vanity rewards can replace the feeling of real progression on your character. But the real progression has been... casualised.

Now such an item as my BS helm is almost meaningless because you can go into Ashran and get better gear in a few hours of mindlessly zerging. The uselessness of Ashran is another question entirely (bring back the awesome Wintergrasp please!), but it's one symptom of a wider malaise. All of the content feels lacking because it's all so easy, the rewards are too good and therefore don't feel "rewarding", epics don't "feel" epic, and achievements don't feel like they are worth the time invested.

Blizzard need to find a way of staggering character progression, particularly through gear, that allows real achievement and advancement through both skill, guild-play, and/or time invested. Some Legion changes seem to be positive developments in this zone.

[Shakari]

Listening to raiders complain about exclusivity is a lot like listening to a homeless man complaining about the quality of food in the food line.

Must admit, it amused me because it rings true.

Thing that gets me, people complain they want exclusivity, they will be completing the content anyway as there a raider, so how exactly does the exclusivity benifit them?

The only think it achieves is it stops others from seeing the content.

So basically its feeling cheated because others "in there eyes", who are not worthy because of "xxxx reason" get to see the same content they do.

Bare in mind this "content, doesn't have the same good rewards, mounts etc, its just the actual content.

It boils down to elitism and being selfish. Why people have to measure the own success against others who will never reach the same level I have no idea, and then want to
make sure that, although they will never be as good make sure they can't even get to see the story line aka content while its current is beyond me.

[Rafoel]

Most of it is worse, other than you don't have to live on the game in order to enjoy it anymore.

No one is a special snowflake anymore, gold makes sure of that. So if everyone can enjoy the game, wtf is the problem?

That moment when I no longer can tell if poster is trolling or serious.

[Deleted]

And you don't see how I already shown that your analogy is bad right? You are comparing something that has multiple difficulties to something you want to lack multiple difficulties.

I compared WoW as a subscription based game that provides content to those who can master it - and less interesting content to those who cannot

To a sports club that provides the participation in competitive matches to those who are good enough - and non competitive training sessions to those who are not



Your reply: But there are other soccer teams! Still soccer but less serious.

Fucking moronic.

There are also other games besides WoW. Still games but other target audience.

Also I never said Boobs weren't round. I said "If you said[/proved] "But boobs are not actually round" that'd make a counter point [if it were actually true]." I could have worded it better (as shown in the brackets. I'm not a native english speaker, tho. So mistakes happen.) but you're still nothing but a troll with weak arguments.


Bend my posts as you will. I am done discussing with you.

[Rafoel]

Until Blizzard actually say this themselves, this may ask well be a statement that there are green elephants and that they can fly ... it's just about as reliable.
This is simply your point of view. Not fact in any way.

The game is 12 years old nearly you really expect it to have the same number of players as 5 or 10 years ago.... be a little realistic, it won't.

WoD has had mistakes but in the whole it's catered reasonable well to everyone, and has done more good than any harm.

I'm pretty sure you would keep repeating that even if subscribers number fell to 100k.

Also, how is counter strike 2nd most watched game in twitch all this time? People should get bored playing it long ago!

[Deleted]

It is a little ironic that you would say that. WoW currently has multiple difficulties, and you are complaining about it. So... Do you write letters to Comedy Central to complain about the fact that you do not enjoy their cartoons?

I think you will find an answer to your confusion in one of my earlier posts here:

Somehow "Maybe this MMORPG isn't for me if I...
... do not have the time for an MMORPG."
... cannot cope with the difficulty of it."
... do not like playing with other people."
doesn't apply in WoW and it's actually quite fascinating. Why does it HAVE to be WoW? There are games for solo players. There are games for people who have only little time for games. There are games for people who cannot handle games with the difficulty level of a shape sorting cube...

Why INSIST on playing with a shape sorting cube then? Why?


Now ... nowadays this question is easy to answer. You're used to it. You've grown attached to it. You've played and (more or less) loved this game and your characters for years. This is basically the reason why I still play even tho WoW hasn't catered to me for the last 6 years or so (basically you could ask me questions akin to the ones above).

But there was a point when WoW was still somewhat demanding. When pulling too many mobs meant certain death. Where slacking often meant getting kicked from the dungeon (without a 20 minute kick restriction that is longer than an actual modern dungeon). Where making too many mistakes on a dungeon boss meant wiping. So how was it possible that at that point, a swarm of people - who apparently hated the game without having any kind of year long bond with it - kept insisting on playing it anyways and demanding it to be changed to suit them?

[Darththeo]

And yet Cataclysms sub loss only started rolling AFTER the 5man dungeons had been nerfed. LOL

Yes, because the prior events to the nerf could have NO impact on why people left the game at all.

- - - Updated - - -

I can pull out Dark Souls again now. I am sure there are people who want to see it who are simply to bad to do so.

That's called a target audience. If you're not part of the target audience because you're too bad, have too few time, are too old to get the jokes or whatever the fuck the characteristics of a product's target audience are... then the product is not for you. Look for another product that better suits your needs.


Like ... do you write fucking letters to Comedy Central to complain about the fact that you do not enjoy their cartoons because they are too childish for you and it's bad business practice that they only cater to kids with these cartoons and not to you or do you just fucking switch the goddamn channel like any non retarded human being would?

Except these people who want to play WoW are part of the "target audience." That kind of destroys your entire argument.

[Deleted]

So, as someone who has beaten Mythic Archimonde twice now, multiple difficulties does make the game less fun, for a few reasons: 1) It is same bosses with same dialogue for 4 diffuculties gets worn out. 2) It makes doing the easier versions mindnumbingly dull when helping people and such. 3) Gearing up a new char is cancerous since your not doing Raid 1, 2 and 3 to gear up, you do latest raid on 3-4 difficulties + Tanaan for ring and gear.

[Rafoel]

Yes, because the prior events to the nerf could have NO impact on why people left the game at all.

- - - Updated - - -



Except these people who want to play WoW are part of the "target audience." That kind of destroys your entire argument.

His argument is that they DIDN'T want to play WoW. They wanted play some other game, and instead of simply playing it, they demanded WoW to change so that it becomes the game they wanted to play.

[CaptainV]

Yeah it perfectly worked with WoD. WoD cuttered everyting to casuals so we have now millions of players playing and.. oh wait we dont. Servers are empty citis are ghosttown, world is dead. How is it possible with all that covinience and accessible content around us? Hmm let me think maybe becouse players dont leave game becouse they cant access content but leave when they are bored or have nothing to do which is caused by how todays content is fast consumed becouse it is so easy and accessible? Nobady will leave your game when they dont get to see 100% of content. Players leave when they got bored and run out of content.

AND FOR GOD SAKE. Stop using 1% argument. There was thousends of guilds doing lower tier raids and had tons of fun doing that. And there is nothing wrong doing lower tier content. I was playing in casual guild casual and we never get to see BT or Kaelthas or 40man naxx. Did we cared? No we didnt care we had our fun in AQ 20, Zul Gurub, Karazhan, SSC, etc.

Back in glory days intead swaping difficulty levels you simple progress lowe difficulty bosses which were in most cases starting bosses for casual audience and we were more than ok with it.

Mate, I played ZG, I played AQ, I played BWL, I know, you dont need to tell me what was already there back in its prime. But the 1% argument is based on the TBC era, not Vanillia. Blizzard THEMSELVES stated that only 1% of the raiding populace got to SEE and even FIGHT Kil'jaeden and only a few more guilds and groups even got to ATTEMPT Sunwell, most were stuck to the very end on Illidan.

Theres a reason people disliked this system, it literally was impossible for most casual guilds to progress beyond Kharazan, it ended with guilds falling apart and merging into larger raid communities because there was community sniping, it eliminated the fun of casual groups who had been mostly just having an adventure and a half around Vanillia content which was never intended to be taken as seriously compedetive.

TBC introduced this whole big "Competition" bias where you needed to be the best player, the best guild, the best one percent, and it created nothing but a poison community that hurt the community interaction and damaged any cooperation between newplayers and vets.

WOTLK fixed that, the Angry 1% complained that WOTLK ruined their hard earned TBC effort grinding, and yelled at blizzard for making things too "casual friendly" so blizzard made content harder in Cataclysm.

By then however it was already too late because Blizzard themselves had backed themselves into a corner by making Dungeons relaxing and fun for most, so when they finally introduced actually challenging dungeons, most players felt like they had been pissed on.

Blizz nerfed Cata content, people played again, but by then the content drought started to show, all because "raiders" wanted content exclusivly designed around hard gear grinds and extreme levels of long play with little immediate reward.

Theres a two sided blade to every story, what your trying to justify is that WoD catered to casuals...

You could "not" be more wrong.

Casual players dont mind a challenge, but they "dont" want to be "forced" into one in order to progress, and if you sincerely tell me that enduring 16-20 weeks of constant item farms for a legendary ring isnt a challenge you have your head on the wrong way round.

Grinding gear has never been more hardcore friendly, because nearly "every" item now is based on chance, nearly everything is a luck-of-the-draw system where you farm for hours getting a single piece of gear, only to find it isnt optimal for the spec you need to do the best potential dps.

You also need ahead of the curve because 9/10 raiders wont even try to take you on at this point unless you've earned it, sometimes they even demand curve from PREVIOUS expansions because they're THAT obnoxious about it.

No... you cant even remotley have match to the candle of fire that the WoD "Elite" community burned with its rediculas gear treadmill/ilevel demands, its rediculas achievement requirements and the fact most guilds wont even "take you" unless you have farmed X number of months in Y content.

No... To even consider this "Casual friendly" is a joke, this expansion is the exact opposite, because literally all there is to do is grind, grind grind and grind until eventually you progress, which offers "no" immediate reward offers "No" reason to play for the rest of the week and gives people "no" reason to care about the content itself.

You do, one weekly event, one weekly pvp, one weekly mythic lockout on dungeons, one LFR per week.

"One per week" is not even remotley good enough, because content should not be "locked" out at all.

When you start restricting content you ultimatley fail to realize what made it relevent in the first place, the actual ability to play it at all.

And most of WoD, is flat out, unplayable.

Garrisons even eliminated the need to access 2/3rds of the content because the game now does it "for" you, which further mocks the very point of a "game" being "played".

Now compare that to Overwatch, a game thats not even left Beta and has already been universally decided to be the second comming of UT/Quake/TF2 and other E-sport based FPS games and has been highly successful based on the fact you can constantly "play" the game any time, any day, anywhere, at any point.

And you will see the reason that the game died.

Blame your 1% of raiders bitching that content wasnt exclusive enough, not the 99% of people that actually wanted to play it.

And yes, the 1% "Does" exist.