Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[Polarthief]

The problem I have with people seeing all the content is that there's no mystery anymore.

Back when I played in Vanilla/BC, I never saw the end of the game, and I didn't care. I had plenty more to do and there was always the mystery of "what's in that raid?".

Then you realize that you'd really like to raid, so you do your research and you "git gud" as the kids call it, and then you form up a raiding group.

But, with LFR being so easy that a braindead toddler can do it, it pulls away the mystique of the raids for people who would otherwise have been incentivized to get better to see the content, as they now just press a button and AFK for 30 minutes every week. At the same time though, designing raids for < 1% of the players is really stupid, but then again, so is designing leveling content using 90%+ of the expansion's resources when you spend < 1% of your expansion time doing it and 99%+ doing end-game.


Source: This is coming from someone who played pretty much all of Vanilla-WoD, and has been both a "casual baddie" and a "hardcore mythic raider". I've experienced this game from pretty much every angle, and I have to say that it was always fun regardless, as long as you have some content to do. (actually, it got less fun as a hardcore raider; dunno if I'm just cynical now or what but the last 3 expansions sucked compared to the first 2+Vanilla)

[clevin]

And the bolded part shows how arrogant you are as a person. Seriously, if they only do LFR they can't be interested in seeing that content? WTF, that's nonsense.

Because you misread it. Let me try again:

If someone says "I'm really interested in seeing this content!" but then would refuse to do an organized raiding mode if that's all that was available, then they're not REALLY interested in seeing the content.* They will ONLY see it if it's super easy and on demand, i.e. LFR.

The point is that people say a lot of things but the proof of how important something is to them is what they will do to get that thing they desire. Organized raiding IS NOT hard. It just isn't. Yes, you have to find a guild whose times work for you and who have the same broad goals as you and yes, you have to show up at certain times. If you're not willing to do that then do you really want to see the content? Or are you demanding it be handed to you in easy mode?

Also, quit whining about straw men. You are misusing the term AND using it as a shield.

*assuming organized modes are about has hard as now, i.e. can be done by any group of decently good players in 2 nights or so a week.

[Darththeo]

Of course, and they once did a good job balancing the two. Currently the focus seems to lie heavilty on making it accessible and raiders are the same minority they once were. Accessibility was rarely the problem. To specific raids? Sure, but not to participate in PvE.

That's why I'm arguing against having 4 difficulties. It solved very little and caused an array of new problems. I've read your posts and you seem like a fair person, couldn't make out what your stance was though.

I started in Wrath being serious, I leveled a character a bit in BC but not serious. Wrath was when I got to max level.

4 is a little insane, I agree.

[clevin]

Exclusivity makes the game akin to a Ponzi scheme. Everyone pays, but only a minority (by definition) get the entertainment payoff. It's an inherently self-destroying design philosophy.

No, anyone can get the content. What you cannot do is be lazy, unwilling to put in any time or effort and get the content. And once again we pay for access. Not success.

[Darththeo]

Because you misread it. Let me try again:

If someone says "I'm really interested in seeing this content!" but then would refuse to do an organized raiding mode if that's all that was available, then they're not REALLY interested in seeing the content.* They will ONLY see it if it's super easy and on demand, i.e. LFR.

The point is that people say a lot of things but the proof of how important something is to them is what they will do to get that thing they desire. Organized raiding IS NOT hard. It just isn't. Yes, you have to find a guild whose times work for you and who have the same broad goals as you and yes, you have to show up at certain times. If you're not willing to do that then do you really want to see the content? Or are you demanding it be handed to you in easy mode?

Also, quit whining about straw men. You are misusing the term AND using it as a shield.

*assuming organized modes are about has hard as now, i.e. can be done by any group of decently good players in 2 nights or so a week.

Given your explanation you just show how arrogant you are being and clearly shows I didn't misread it. Some people don't have time for the more time intensive version and want to see that content. They can't be interested because they can only see it through the Super easy mode? I actually ... get this ... have a problem with how easy LFR is currently in the game. It should be harder, but right now it is a joke.

You are being arrogant and can't see it. I am not hiding behind strawman argument when what you are saying is completely altering what was being talked about in the first place. You need to learn you are changing what is said to make it easier to refute.

[Daffan]

It is an issue imo, but because everything is so accessible that you can clear most of the things you want in a couple months tops. Which is not great for a subscription-based game that drops content every 6~12 months at best.

Not saying everything should be at Vanilla levels (high extreme), just not so low as it is now.

Feels more like we're playing an action-adventure multiplayer game than a MMROPG nowadays.

(And no I'm not a hardcore player with 6+ hours to play every day, I'm pretty low on time nowadays actually)

I agree.

I'm ultra casual and the catchup Is so insane you don't even have to play the expansion to beat 90% of it.

[Osmeric]

No, anyone can get the content. What you cannot do is be lazy, unwilling to put in any time or effort and get the content. And once again we pay for access. Not success.

Whether access is provided is irrelevant; what matters is whether the customer actually gets the entertainment payoff that keeps them playing and paying. A game designer cannot argue their game design was fine but the players were broken. Player behavior and preferences are a boundary condition they must work within.

By your logic, WildStar's design was a raging success, but all the players just let it down.

[Gilgameshh]

Those aren't mutually exclusive goals. If you are making content everyone wants to see, you would hope to have a large portion seeing it.

So I assume you'd be okay with an LFR version of the raid that gave no loot? You just want to play through the content to see the story, right? Would you be okay if that content was only available when the next tier of raiding came out? Example: BRF gets released, Highmaul LFR opens up. You still have access to the story, just a little later than those who raid. Or do you need to have it at the same time as everyone else?

Blizzard didn't start making raid content so that everyone could see it. They made it so that a subset of their player base would play it because that's the way they wanted the game to be played. They have since changed their minds, but that doesn't mean their initial design was wrong or flawed.

[clevin]

Given your explanation you just show you arrogant you are being and clearly shows I didn't misread it. Some people don't have time for the more time intensive version and want to see that content. They can't be interested because they can only see it through the Super easy mode?

You are being arrogant and can't see it. I am not hiding behind strawman argument when what you are saying is completely altering what was being talked about in the first place. You need to learn you are changing what is said to make it easier to refute.

No, I'm being an adult. I don't expect everyone and everything to cater to me. You, quite obviously, do. Read above - I used to raid. I stopped organized raiding because I no longer wanted to schedule the time. I accepted that I would no longer see the raids (I stopped at the start of Cata) and that was fine - what I didn't do is whine incessantly like a spoiled brat that "I pay my $15!!!! I'm ENTITLED...." Good god, kid, normal is piss easy and it's flexible so there's basically no reason you can't get in a normal raid unless you're simply incompetent at the game.

Finally, you're the one who dropped the "I pay" line on page 1. Quit trying to back away from it.

PS: I just have to call this out:

Some people don't have time for the more time intensive version and want to see that content.

You can clear normal in 6 hours a week. Easily. If you can't or won't play 6 hours a week in a flex raid (meaning you can usually have less than perfect attendance and it doesn't matter), then again you don't really want put forth anything to see the content. Which is your issue. Not the game's.

[Gilgameshh]

It looks really good so far, but so did WoD. Questing, Raids, Dungeons, it was all really cool but it didn't tie together very well. Small things can make/break your PvE model. I hope they nail it.

I like your attitude and I hope you're right. I'm just jaded after MoP/WoD.

[Deleted]

I agree.

I'm ultra casual and the catchup Is so insane you don't even have to play the expansion to beat 90% of it.

True that. I even rerolled onto a new server with a new toon, within week or two I was Heroic HFC ready and killing my first bosses as soon as I got my legendary ring I got to take part in Mythic Kilrogg and Gorefiend progress kills. It is way too easy to catch up. Catching up quickly wouldn't be too bad if there was a lot of effort involved or doing the older content, but no. They completely invalidated the older raids.

It is a damn shame, since I especially enjoyed Highmaul. It gave guilds stuff to do as well. You could have more alt nights and do different kind of content than what you do on proper raid nights. Now there's very little incentive to go since a lot of the gear is at par with LFR gear, that you get by simply afking.

Barring stuff behind effort, only leads to exclusivity when people are lazy or unwilling to put in the time. Time doesn't entitle you to experiencing everything the game has to offer, it only allows you access to the game and take your chance at experiencing it all.

[Darththeo]

No, I'm being an adult. I don't expect everyone and everything to cater to me. You, quite obviously, do. Read above - I used to raid. I stopped organized raiding because I no longer wanted to schedule the time. I accepted that I would no longer see the raids (I stopped at the start of Cata) and that was fine - what I didn't do is whine incessantly like a spoiled brat that "I pay my $15!!!! I'm ENTITLED...." Good god, kid, normal is piss easy and it's flexible so there's basically no reason you can't get in a normal raid unless you're simply incompetent at the game.

Finally, you're the one who dropped the "I pay" line on page 1. Quit trying to back away from it.

Your definition of adult seems quite childish to me. And you have ignored a lot of what I said.

Again, the content I am talking about is story, not gear. If I pay for the game, I should be able to experience the story. Do you think that is stupid?

[clevin]

Whether access is provided is irrelevant; what matters is whether the customer actually gets the entertainment payoff that keeps them playing and paying. A game designer cannot argue their game design was fine but the players were broken. Player behavior and preferences are a boundary condition they must work within.

By your logic, WildStar's design was a raging success, but all the players just let it down.

Wildstar made a lot of mistake entirely unrelated to exclusivity but you keep playing that one note harp, kiddo.

Also, subs were at their highest when things were 'exclusive'. Hmm....

- - - Updated - - -

Your definition of adult seems quite childish to me. And you have ignored a lot of what I said.

Again, the content I am talking about is story, not gear. If I pay for the game, I should be able to experience the story. Do you think that is stupid?

Yes, I do IF you won't put any effort in. Again, you pay for ACCESS. That's all. Your fee does not entitle you to anything other than the ability to play the game. Your logic, if taken to the extreme, means you should get everything in the game because you pay a sub. At some point, you have to actually play the fucking game. You seem to view that as an imposition.

[Darththeo]

So I assume you'd be okay with an LFR version of the raid that gave no loot? You just want to play through the content to see the story, right? Would you be okay if that content was only available when the next tier of raiding came out? Example: BRF gets released, Highmaul LFR opens up. You still have access to the story, just a little later than those who raid. Or do you need to have it at the same time as everyone else?

Blizzard didn't start making raid content so that everyone could see it. They made it so that a subset of their player base would play it because that's the way they wanted the game to be played. They have since changed their minds, but that doesn't mean their initial design was wrong or flawed.

Actually, I would be okay with a raid that gave no loot. I am okay with waiting a week (anything more than that is too long in my opinion) ... unless they issued tier subscription plans. However, I would want someone in the overworld where I can work toward getting better gear without raiding ... not like they have currently, but something where it is a moderate challenge to gear up.

[Osmeric]

Wildstar made a lot of mistake entirely unrelated to exclusivity but you keep playing that one note harp, kiddo.

I was using WildStar to illustrate a general point. WildStar provided access. What, providing access isn't enough? I guess your argument about that was bullshit, no?

Also, subs were at their highest when things were 'exclusive'. Hmm....

Oh please at least attempt to pretend to be serious. They were highest at the start, and then cratered long before the way-too-late nerfs. I do agree there were multiple things wrong with the game, but #hardcore sure didn't help.

[Darththeo]

=Yes, I do IF you won't put any effort in. Again, you pay for ACCESS. That's all. Your fee does not entitle you to anything other than the ability to play the game. Your logic, if taken to the extreme, means you should get everything in the game because you pay a sub. At some point, you have to actually play the fucking game. You seem to view that as an imposition.

And you still don't see how you are strawmanning me. I am not arguing for the extreme and even I agree that certain things are currently too casual friendly. You are talking my argument to the EXTREME to make it easier for you to argue against. Yes, that is a valid way to make an argument in some cases, but you and the others are doing so poorly and when you do that poorly it is a strawman.

I am not asking for free stuff, I am asking for access to content that fits my needs. This is also why single player comparison doesn't work, I don't need to play Dark Souls to keep up with other players if I want to see content. I can play that fits around my needs ... you are asking MMOs to be unique in the game world unless you can keep up you should get left behind completely.

[Daedius]

Special snowflaking much?

You need to understand that this is a game. I pay the same to play it as you, I should be denied content because I am not as good as you are? And because I can't get as good as you because people don't want the particular class/spec I want to play? The super bowl analogy doesn't work as all teams have a chance to see the Super Bowl, in the old way, not everyone had a chance to see content.

Also added, that what do you give Raiders who beat the raid and were fully geared to max? There was nothing ... by adding other difficulties it allowed raiders to do more.

"I haven't downed Mythic Archimonde... I only do LFR and have already downed him countless times there, why should mythic raiders get that Felsteel Annihilator mount and not LFR? I raid just like them, I should get it too, I pay for the game same as them!" (!)

[Darththeo]

"I haven't downed Mythic Archimonde... I only do LFR and have already downed him countless times there, why should mythic raiders get that Felsteel Annihilator mount and not LFR? I raid just like them, I should get it too, I pay for the game as much as them...!" (!)

I am not asking for free stuff, don't strawman me.

I don't want all the mounts and mythic gear or anything like that.
I want to see content when it is relevant. A pathetically small number of players even saw the original Naxx and that isn't a good model to have. You need to find a balance between casual friendly where the majority of player see content and yet offers a challenge.

[Glorious Leader]

One thread has casuals saying LFR is raiding. This one you're saying it isn't. Make up your mind.

Yes, everything up until mythic is casual.

LFR is an attempt to make raiding as casual friendly as possible. It has clearly not succeeded in retaining or engaging casuals.

[Sansnom]

Exclusivity is key for a MMO. Unfortunately Blizzard is going the other way around.

It is actually bad. If exclusivity is required, that means every body pays, but only a few enjoys. That is a very bad design. This is basically asking people to subsidizing others.

If everyone can enjoys it, such as all the "casuals" leaves the game and only "raiders" remains with on one raid tier. Then the raid is no longer "exclusive" since everyone is clearing it.