Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[Berengil]

It's not bad inherently. Its "badness" or "goodness" is determined by what kind of game you want to make.

If you want a game that has as wide and varied an audience as possible, it's bad. (Examples: WoW, ToR)

If you are content to have the game you are making be niche in its appeal, it's good. ( Eve Online, EQ project 99, Darkfall)

[Deleted]

Only one who denies content to you is yourself. If you cant do content becouse you dont have time or you are bad at the game then problem is and awlays was in you not in game desing. You dont deserve to see content just becouse you spend money on it.

Ok,lets say you are right, I dont have enough time and I dont deserve to see raids.
When I finish deserved part of content (questing etc.) in a month, I will leave WoW for other games. Many others will do the same.
Is this really what you want me to do?
Dont you think Blizzard need money of all of us to keep producing raid content?

You cant expect me to pay for "your" content and give me nothing. Ok, give me outdoor non-exclusive content.
No resorces for that? Sorry, Im out. Thats how people go.

[Uhkavii]

I am not asking for free stuff, don't strawman me.

I agree with you that Blizzard should offer content for people who don't have time to raid. The mistake that Blizzard made in my opinion after playing wow for 11 years is making lfr, it forced the more casual players to think of raiding as casual content and something everyone should see or do and that's just wrong I'm sorry but there should be some other form of content for people who don't have time to or who don't want to play. I strongly believe the 1 raid difficulty of the past was the best system for the game maybe even just normal and heroic because when you add 4 difficulties it can take away from dungeons which use to be really fun and I'm glad they're making them a viable way of gearing again, but back to my earlier point with 4 difficulties people will get really worn out from doing the same raid over and over again. Of course you can say people don't have to do lfr but that's where you have to start if you're just someone who pugs without a guild you can't get into pugs with just dungeon gear you would need to get at least some gear from the most recent LFR just to get into the "normal" difficulty and then you could get into "heroic" and then "mythic" that's just insane I don't think earlier raids would have been as fun if we had to do them that many times. I LOVE cross realm guilds and cross realm raiding and yes I support the idea of cross realm mythic raiding and how normal/flex is now where you can form any size group you want that's really healthy for the game because it can be hard to find people on just your server who aren't already committed to their guilds mythic group. Anything they add for casual players that allow for quick pre raid gear garrison/lfr for example is going to be bad for the game it's very possible to be casual and still do mythic/hardest content I've only raided maybe 1 - 2 hours a week and have cleared mythic content. There is a lot of possibility for WoW but aiming everyone into raiding was bad for the game. You raid because you want to see the content and because it is a challenging process of progression that is done over time. The community was at it's strongest in wotlk and bc/vanilla so it is wrong to say that the old systems are bad for the community, wow is at probably 4 million or less subscribers right now and I really feel like they've hurt a lot of players with the idea that raiding is the only "end game" they could add some other form of content for people who don't want to raid for whatever reason. But that's just how I feel

[Gilgameshh]

Actually, I would be okay with a raid that gave no loot. I am okay with waiting a week (anything more than that is too long in my opinion) ... unless they issued tier subscription plans. However, I would want someone in the overworld where I can work toward getting better gear without raiding ... not like they have currently, but something where it is a moderate challenge to gear up.

That's something I can agree to 100%.

The issue I have outside of that is that most people want such good gear from content (LFR for example) that they can't possibly do anything challenging afterwards. If you don't want to raid normal+ but you do LFR, what's left for you to do outside of LFR? If we're talking about Legion, you apparently only have Mythic+ as your go to source of content for character progression. You'll do that until the next LFR tier comes out but by then you'll probably have surprassed LFR gear's ilvl through Mythic+. All of a sudden, you have one path for character progression in Mythic+ with the same dungeons until the end of the expansion (of course the artifact weapon will play a part, but we'll see how long that takes and how fun it actually is to advance it).

If the rewards are too low, most people won't do the content. You're in the minority when you agree to playing through a raid that offers only story progression as a reward, unfortunately.

I'd much rather they give up on this vertical progression, power creep bullshit and give content rewards that have a base power, but only scale within the content from which they were obtained. Dungeon gear could be used in raids but only has base power, raid gear could be used in dungeons but has the same base power as dungeon gear. Set bonuses are deactivated when you're not playing in that content, blah blah. Would love to see dungeon sets make a return to support this. Would also love to see dungeon tiers released instead of the front-load of dungeons we get every expansion. Challenging world content to supplement raids and dungeons would be very nice to see as well. We're not headed in that direction, but that's the direction I'd like to go in. There's tons of room to critique/expand upon what I'm describing but you get the picture.

[Darththeo]

That's something I can agree to 100%.

The issue I have outside of that is that most people want such good gear from content (LFR for example) that they can't possibly do anything challenging afterwards. If you don't want to raid normal+ but you do LFR, what's left for you to do outside of LFR? If we're talking about Legion, you apparently only have Mythic+ as your go to source of content for character progression. You'll do that until the next LFR tier comes out but by then you'll probably have surprassed LFR gear's ilvl through Mythic+. All of a sudden, you have one path for character progression in Mythic+ with the same dungeons until the end of the expansion (of course the artifact weapon will play a part, but we'll see how long that takes and how fun it actually is to advance it).

If the rewards are too low, most people won't do the content. You're in the minority when you agree to playing through a raid that offers only story progression as a reward, unfortunately.

I'd much rather they give up on this vertical progression, power creep bullshit and give content rewards that have a base power, but only scale within the content from which they were obtained. Dungeon gear could be used in raids but only has base power, raid gear could be used in dungeons but has the same base power as dungeon gear. Set bonuses are deactivated when you're not playing in that content, blah blah. Would love to see dungeon sets make a return to support this. Would also love to see dungeon tiers released instead of the front-load of dungeons we get every expansion. Challenging world content to supplement raids and dungeons would be very nice to see as well. We're not headed in that direction, but that's the direction I'd like to go in. There's tons of room to critique/expand upon what I'm describing but you get the picture.

I agree with you. Blizzard seems to understand the problems with the game, but don't seem to understand how to address them in my view. No game is perfect and a MMO has to adapt to keep players interested.

[Gilgameshh]

Ok,lets say you are right, I dont have enough time and I dont deserve to see raids.
When I finish deserved part of content (questing etc.) in a month, I will leave WoW for other games. Many others will do the same.
Is this really what you want me to do?
Dont you think Blizzard need money of all of us to keep producing raid content?

You cant expect me to pay for "your" content and give me nothing. Ok, give me outdoor non-exclusive content.
No resorces for that? Sorry, Im out. Thats how people go.

Who says you're paying for my content with your $15 and I'm not paying for yours? If all I like to do is raid in WoW, which is true now that PvP has become garbage since WotLK, how much of MY money is going towards non-raid content that I don't care for? How much out of my $50 and $15 a month did I have to pay for garrisons to be put into the game? Maybe we can all agree on that one, but you see my point. We first have to know how much it costs to make a raid to know who's getting slighted, if anyone really is. My guess is that I'm paying for more content I don't want to play as a raider than you're paying as a non-raider for raids, but maybe I'm wrong. Would really love to see those numbers.

I agree that non-raiders should be given a hell of a lot more than they've been getting the last few expansions. There's really no good argument against that.

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I agree with you. Blizzard seems to understand the problems with the game, but don't seem to understand how to address them in my view. No game is perfect and a MMO has to adapt to keep players interested.

I think that's a point everyone can/should agree with. Blizzard may piss a lot of different people off with their design choices (like me), but they are absolutely aware of what the community is saying.

I'm sure they have ideas to do things differently, but fear it will be too much of a gamble to turn things upside-down this late in the game's life. Feels like they're playing it way too safe, and Legion looks to be no different in that regard.

[Deleted]

Exclusivity makes the game akin to a Ponzi scheme. Everyone pays, but only a minority (by definition) get the entertainment payoff. It's an inherently self-destroying design philosophy.

By your logic everyone should receive all best gear, toys, pets and mounts upon logging in. CMs should be available in LFD so everyone would get entertainment payoff. After all, they are paying same subscription money.

But reality is different. People pay to access servers, no less and no more. It doesn't entitle them to instantly get all rewards. They do have access to everything.

Before LF* and "only latest patch matters" nonsense, all players had to do to see content was learn how to play and be social. WoW was constantly getting more and more subscribers.

But Blizzard caved in to lazy entitled morons. Now we have situation where 99% of content is boring, easy and irrelevant. Developers tried to counter boredom with shiny cut scenes. But hey, everyone get to see everything, even if its in such bad state that no longer entertains. And there are shiny cut scenes!!! No matter that players are leaving in droves because game sucks, at least they get to see all content.

[clevin]

And you still don't see how you are strawmanning me. I am not arguing for the extreme and even I agree that certain things are currently too casual friendly. You are talking my argument to the EXTREME to make it easier for you to argue against. Yes, that is a valid way to make an argument in some cases, but you and the others are doing so poorly and when you do that poorly it is a strawman.

I am not asking for free stuff, I am asking for access to content that fits my needs. This is also why single player comparison doesn't work, I don't need to play Dark Souls to keep up with other players if I want to see content. I can play that fits around my needs ... you are asking MMOs to be unique in the game world unless you can keep up you should get left behind completely.

you HAVE access to content. You just demand it 'fit your needs' which is ludicrous in a game with millions. Not everything can revolve around each person. Also? I didn't make a single player comparison. Don't whine about strawmanning then put words in others' mouths.

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rs even saw the original Naxx and that isn't a good model to have. You need to find a balance between casual friendly where the majority of player see content and yet offers a challenge.

You HAVE THAT even if LFR goes away. You can run normal.

Now, if by exclusivity, people meant "Raids should all be mythic and nothing less" then I'd agree with you. But if we mean "Raids should all be organized and not have LFR" then I think your concerns aren't reasonable.

[Pieterman]

It is actually bad. If exclusivity is required, that means every body pays, but only a few enjoys. That is a very bad design. This is basically asking people to subsidizing others.

I don't PvP, scrap PvP cause I don't want to pay for their content, I don't play horde, scrap horde cause I don't want to pay for their content.

Does that make sense to you?

The reality is that WoW caters to a lot of different audiences. If you're not doing any of it and not getting your money's worth, that's on you.

[Darththeo]

you HAVE access to content. You just demand it 'fit your needs' which is ludicrous in a game with millions. Not everything can revolve around each person. Also? I didn't make a single player comparison. Don't whine about strawmanning then put words in others' mouths.

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You HAVE THAT even if LFR goes away. You can run normal.

Now, if by exclusivity, people meant "Raids should all be mythic and nothing less" then I'd agree with you. But if we mean "Raids should all be organized and not have LFR" then I think your concerns aren't reasonable.

You know, you claim you aren't strawmanning, but you are ignoring the very first post in this topic that I was responding to. You are ignoring context of my argument. When you ignore context, you make a strawman. When you poorly take an argument to the extreme, you make a strawman.

Also, do you even understand what fits my needs means? Because I think you don't. I want to raid, but I would like to be able to clear a raid in a reasonable time. You seem to think I am against normal and just for LFR ... I don't know why you assumed that. Also, I didn't put words in your mouth. I brought up another argument against me ... I didn't claim you made it. You do know I am not just posting for your benefit right, but rather supporting my argument to everyone arguing against me. I made an aside comment.

Given that you still can't seem to put together what my argument is let me spell it out simply for you.
1) If you lock story content behind raids, then you should have difficulties that all people who want to raid AND/OR see story can finish.
2) This content should meet the requirements of average player time wise to meet and difficulties should offer different levels of challenges and times to complete so that it can meet the needs of most players.

If you throw out Number 1 then number 2 doesn't apply anymore ... got it?

I am not asking blizzard to give a raid I can finish in a half hour, and all the rewards Mythic raiders are getting.

[Sencha]

Exclusivity makes the game akin to a Ponzi scheme. Everyone pays, but only a minority (by definition) get the entertainment payoff. It's an inherently self-destroying design philosophy.

You are the kind of people who thinks 'I pay, I am entitled to every reward the game can offer'. If everyone can get the same reward, people have no incentive to get them.

[Osmeric]

You are the kind of people who thinks 'I pay, I am entitled to every reward the game can offer'. If everyone can get the same reward, people have no incentive to get them.

Maybe you should try coming up with a real argument rather than trotting out more of the same inane debunked talking points.

[Daffan]

You are the kind of people who thinks 'I pay, I am entitled to every reward the game can offer'. If everyone can get the same reward, people have no incentive to get them.

Bingo.

Just look at player retention now, it's doing so well keeping people playing when you can achieve everything in <1 week

pets/toys/mounts are all zergable garbage people force themselves to do for a timesink, so they don't count.

True that. I even rerolled onto a new server with a new toon, within week or two I was Heroic HFC ready and killing my first bosses as soon as I got my legendary ring I got to take part in Mythic Kilrogg and Gorefiend progress kills. It is way too easy to catch up. Catching up quickly wouldn't be too bad if there was a lot of effort involved or doing the older content, but no. They completely invalidated the older raids.

It is a damn shame, since I especially enjoyed Highmaul. It gave guilds stuff to do as well. You could have more alt nights and do different kind of content than what you do on proper raid nights. Now there's very little incentive to go since a lot of the gear is at par with LFR gear, that you get by simply afking.

Barring stuff behind effort, only leads to exclusivity when people are lazy or unwilling to put in the time. Time doesn't entitle you to experiencing everything the game has to offer, it only allows you access to the game and take your chance at experiencing it all.

Yup. I don't even understand the people who defend insane catchup mechanics.

It's like, you are skipping more good content then you are being given access too. It's a lose/lose.

[Darththeo]

You are the kind of people who thinks 'I pay, I am entitled to every reward the game can offer'. If everyone can get the same reward, people have no incentive to get them.

Outside of a minority, no one thinks they are entitled to every reward. There are so few players that think that you might as well as there isn't a single one.

[Sansnom]

I don't PvP, scrap PvP cause I don't want to pay for their content, I don't play horde, scrap horde cause I don't want to pay for their content.

Does that make sense to you?

Nope. Non raiders are asking content for them. They have not asked for contents to be removed. Raiders are asking for contents, such as LFR and easier mode, for them to be removed.

The reality is that WoW caters to a lot of different audiences. If you're not doing any of it and not getting your money's worth, that's on you.

It is now. Non raiders are getting easier raiding. Yet people are asking for them to be removed.

Does that make sense to you?

[Sansnom]

Yup. I don't even understand the people who defend insane catchup mechanics.

It's like, you are skipping more good content then you are being given access too. It's a lose/lose.

Blizzard has the data. I doubt anyone here does. Blizzard made catchup mechanics. Why?

Blizzard design decision is influence by the data they collected. I very much doubt they just sit and spend time and resources without taking into account of their previous expansion. If they decided to implement catchup, their data must have indicated this was required.

[Darththeo]

That's true, but a vast majority of casuals want rewards that are close enough to the best gear to devalue it. They want tier in LFR, trinkets in LFR, they want high enough ilvl gear in dungeons or from Valor and so on.

Nothing should come close to touching Mythic raid gear, ever. As long as this is respected, I would be fine.

How does someone else having gear close to your devalues yours? That argument makes zero sense.

LFR is a joke, and I think even most people who do LFR likely agrees with that. A vocal minority again isn't a majority.

[Begrudge]

No one wants to go out of their way to do anything in game. They want it easy to get if it's not in their direct path they are progressing in game. People are lazy. Make Everything exclusive and people might have to play the game they bought o noes ;p

[Stormspellz]

Special snowflaking much?

You need to understand that this is a game. I pay the same to play it as you, I should be denied content because I am not as good as you are? And because I can't get as good as you because people don't want the particular class/spec I want to play? The super bowl analogy doesn't work as all teams have a chance to see the Super Bowl, in the old way, not everyone had a chance to see content.

Also added, that what do you give Raiders who beat the raid and were fully geared to max? There was nothing ... by adding other difficulties it allowed raiders to do more.

You pay to play, you don't pay to win. Normal and heroic are tuned that every spec is viable. You can challenge people without recycling the same content for four difficulties, that is a big cause of player burn out.

[Deleted]

i rly think they should try out for legacy servers

even with Runescape and their old-school / legacy servers
even after making polls and calculating on development time and money used on server they couldn't see it running for more than 6 months before having to be shut down
it's now more populare than their main game.

They changed the original runescape based on the community and what they thought was best, but in the end it just caused people to leave.
and i honestly think WoW is the same, they tried to cater for too many people and kept changing the game because of it, now the numbers have dropped considerably.

Look at WoD it was said to be going back to the old Warcraft back to the Humans vs Orc, back to the old days
the amount of people who subbed was insanely high and they even got above 10 mil subs, but as soon as people realised what kind of state the game is in they quickly left again.