[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

As for the episode: Really good; Dany was garbage as I've come to expect. The ending wasn't really that cool even, since we've already seen this gimmick and it doesn't even really make sense that everybody is just bowing to her instantly. Dothraki are supposedly suspicious of magic - they are literally mocking her in the scene before for trusting a witch - are none of the bloodriders angry, scared, or concerned that this witch-apparent just walked out of the same building their lords perished in? They're all just bowing to this person "just because"? Eh, whatever. I fully expect that within a few episodes she'll be losing her grip on her new position anyway, and then shortly after that the entire Khalasar will die, desert, or be separated from her. Once more, she gains nothing from the experience and is instead saved by "Targaryen woo" instead of some evolution of her character or abilities.

I'm so excited to see Snow vs. Snow. Hnnnnng that letter though. I doubt Sansa would be at the battle, but it would be sweet if she could just stick a knife between Ramsay's ribs for the finishing blow after all he's done, and continues to do, to her and her family.

[TirielWoW]

I hope the fan theory about Smalljon Umber is right.

I am also hoping for this.

[Sooba]

She is in the show. The show is not the books. The books are not the show.

She got burned once before in the show too. /shrug.

They created another "immunity" moment. Now everyone loses their shit. Either getting annoyed by it or going "SEE?! TOTALLY IMMUNE BRUH"

/sigh.

[TirielWoW]

When did she get burned in the show?

I think Sooba meant, she survived a fire without getting burned once before. Probably referring to the end of Season 1.

[Sooba]

I am guessing that was a body double or has her contract changed?

Could be neither. She has been quoted as saying that she's not against nudity per se, just it's being overused or to titillate. Her contract doesn't say "no nudity ever". It's simply that she can't be forced. ie. She gets to choose.

To be clear, I'm not guaranteeing it's her or anything. Simply stating that she might have chosen to be nude for that scene. Or yes, a body double.

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I think Sooba meant, she survived a fire without getting burned once before. Probably referring to the end of Season 1.

No, actually I didn't. She reacts once in pain to a small dragon while she's feeding it and it gets a bit premature in flaming the food. (Different again from the books, where she outright has to bandage her hands after an incident.)

[TirielWoW]

No, actually I didn't. She reacts once in pain to a small dragon while she's feeding it and it gets a bit premature in flaming the food. (Different again from the books, where she outright has to bandage her hands after an incident.)

Hasn't it been established that dragonfire and regular fire aren't quite the same?

Something about Valyrian steel and how it was produced, and how that gives it power over the White Walkers?

[Sooba]

I don't think that's the case, though. I know that the Targaryens were obsessed with becoming dragons, and at least one drank wildfire in an attempt to become a dragon (spoiler: it didn't work). It might have more to do with the Mad King wanting to be "the dragon," (remember how obsessed Viserys was with this) than with Wildfire not affecting Targaryens.

Pretty much. Aerys was enamoured because he truly was the "Mad King." Never cut his nails. Raped his (former) best friend's wife. Crazy enough to force a popular rebellion after relative stability in one generation. The guy wasn't ruminating on the conveniently selective properties of wildfyre. :P

[Brubear]

I hope the fan theory about Smalljon Umber is right.

The Stark reunion makes me worried, there's undoubtedly going to be something tragic to follow. I'm guessing Rickon will get raped at some point by Harald Karstark. Jon will likely be safe because of his death last season. I have no idea where they will take the story of Sansa and Breanne.



I imagine they tried it and didn't like the look on Daenerys. Pale eyebrows can give the illusion you don't have any and can be very unsettling.

Wait that was supposed to be Smalljon Umber? That's interesting, I didn't realize that neither of the Umbers (Smalljon and Greatjon) were at the Twins for the Red Wedding. I know that they were both there in the books, I'd just assumed that their fates were met off-screen like in the books.

Interesting. Especially since the GoT wiki says that in the series Greatjon was still alive until Smalljon says he died this season. Makes me wonder if there's something more to this since it's reversed in the books (Smalljon died at the Red Wedding and Greatjon was captured alive). It also does seem really strange that the Umbers of all houses would betray the Starks, and that someone who wouldn't even deal with Roose would deal with Ramsey, especially since the Wildling army he's afraid of is led by a Stark. What reason would a Stark have to lead an army of Wildlings against their families closest ally?

[TirielWoW]

Wait that was supposed to be Smalljon Umber? That's interesting, I didn't realize that neither of the Umbers (Smalljon and Greatjon) were at the Twins for the Red Wedding. I know that they were both there in the books, I'd just assumed that their fates were met off-screen like in the books.

Interesting. Especially since the GoT wiki says that in the series Greatjon was still alive until Smalljon says he died this season. Makes me wonder if there's something more to this since it's reversed in the books (Smalljon died at the Red Wedding and Greatjon was captured alive). It also does seem really strange that the Umbers of all houses would betray the Starks, and that someone who wouldn't even deal with Roose would deal with Ramsey, especially since the Wildling army he's afraid of is led by a Stark. What reason would a Stark have to lead an army of Wildlings against their families closest ally?

I don't think Jon is considered a Stark, necessarily, the way that the legitimate ones are. It does seem odd that they'd run at the thought of Wildlings, even when those Wildlings aren't actually attacking anyone or making trouble.

[Sooba]

Hasn't it been established that dragonfire and regular fire aren't quite the same?

Something about Valyrian steel and how it was produced, and how that gives it power over the White Walkers?

That could be argued I suppose. But it remains that Dany really isn't (reliably) immune. She does seem to have immune moments though. Unforunately in this case I think the showrunning authors are relying on it a bit too much, particularly as GRRM has stated otherwise. However, in the interest of simplicity and forebearance I'd rather see where they go with it before I whine too much. Like their cutting of Arianne/Quentyn/Aegon, it could bite them hard in the ass. Or like their bringing Arya/Tywin together, it could be sublime.

[Brubear]

As for the episode: Really good; Dany was garbage as I've come to expect. The ending wasn't really that cool even, since we've already seen this gimmick and it doesn't even really make sense that everybody is just bowing to her instantly. Dothraki are supposedly suspicious of magic - they are literally mocking her in the scene before for trusting a witch - are none of the bloodriders angry, scared, or concerned that this witch-apparent just walked out of the same building their lords perished in? They're all just bowing to this person "just because"? Eh, whatever. I fully expect that within a few episodes she'll be losing her grip on her new position anyway, and then shortly after that the entire Khalasar will die, desert, or be separated from her. Once more, she gains nothing from the experience and is instead saved by "Targaryen woo" instead of some evolution of her character or abilities.

I'm so excited to see Snow vs. Snow. Hnnnnng that letter though. I doubt Sansa would be at the battle, but it would be sweet if she could just stick a knife between Ramsay's ribs for the finishing blow after all he's done, and continues to do, to her and her family.

I think it'll be interesting to see how the whole Winterfell thing plays out. I remember reading about a scene that was filmed involving Littlefinger, Ramsey, Sansa and Jon Snow. Though I reckon that won't end up happening until at least episode 7-8 of this season, with the battle happening right towards the end.

Man, it'd be pretty messed up to bring back Rickon just to kill him. Though they did that with Osha, so....

[Sooba]

As said in an earlier comment, GRRM only stated that Targaryens are not immune to fire. He wasn't specific with the comment - didn't directly refer to Dany.

No, he has been forced to make the point for her as well. The full comment from only one source:

Granny: Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?

George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

Revanshe: So she won't be able to do it again?

George_RR_Martin: Probably not.

You can't stop at the first comment and say "only Targ's in general!" He very clearly says it probably won't happen to her again. Let alone in a permanent sense. And he very clearly calls the birth of her dragons "unique".

[Brubear]

I don't think Jon is considered a Stark, necessarily, the way that the legitimate ones are. It does seem odd that they'd run at the thought of Wildlings, even when those Wildlings aren't actually attacking anyone or making trouble.

That's true, but I still don't really know why he'd be worried about Jon Snow leading an army of Wildlings. He knows that he's the Lord Captain of the Night's Watch and he's the bastard son of Ned Stark and brother of Rob Stark, someone who the Umbers were very close allies of. He hasn't aided or sided with the Boltons in any way until now.

I understand why he'd be afraid of an army of Wildlings because, as he says in the show, his family has been dealing with that for ages. What I don't understand is why he'd be afraid of an army of them led by Jon Snow, who'd have beef with the Boltons and maybe the Karstarks if word had gotten out that they'd sided with the Boltons.

I really do hope that theory plays out to be true, because the Umbers were my favorite of the Northern houses, and killiling Greatjon and turning them into bad guys would just seem needlessly sad.

[Brubear]

No, he has been forced to make the point for her as well. The full comment from only one source:

Granny: Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?

George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

Revanshe: So she won't be able to do it again?

George_RR_Martin: Probably not.

You can't stop at the first comment and say "only Targ's in general!" He very clearly says it probably won't happen to her again. Let alone in a permanent sense. And he very clearly calls the birth of her dragons "unique".

But he also specifically says probably not, not no she is not. So while he did refer to her specifically, he didn't say that she is not immune to fire. Merely that Targaryens as a bloodline are not. So having her be immune really isn't much of a stretch.

[Sooba]

Refer to my previous comment on it:

Also, have you found a video on her getting burnt by her dragon on the show? As said, I don't recall it happening and I can't find anything.

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing."

-from the books. The show may run with this in a different direction. But that one quote alone puts to bed what you're trying to argue. Dany is not immune to fire.

And in her encounter with Drogon in the fighting pits she herself acknowledges this as it informs her strategy of how to corral him. She chooses not to run because "If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me".

Please for the love of god(dess?), stop trying to argue that she's immune. If the show chooses to do that, sure. But she is not. Simply put.

[Brubear]

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing."

-from the books. THe show may run with this in a different direction. But that one quote alone puts to bed what you're trying to argue. Dany is not immune to fire.

So in the books she's not immune, she's just highly resistant? Why could this not develop into a full-on immunity?

Again, Martin didn't say it absolutely would not happen again, only that it was unlikely. Given that this statement was made how long ago, why could he not soften his stance?

[Sooba]

So in the books she's not immune, she's just highly resistant? Why could this not develop into a full-on immunity?

Again, Martin didn't say it absolutely would not happen again, only that it was unlikely. Given that this statement was made how long ago, why could he not soften his stance?

You're suffering from the availability heuristic. Dany has more evidence (in the books, to be clear about which I'm debating) of susceptibility to fire than immunity. She has a one-off encounter. That's it. She has multiple mentions of those burns as well as being aware of trying to avoid being burned. Even the "bath" scene is played differently. (In the books the servants carry the water in metal buckets to no ill effect. And there's no servant trying to claim it's too hot.)

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You said she gets burnt once on the show too. This didn't happen, as far as I'm aware and I'm asking you to provide some video of it.

Show and books are different. She's immune to fire on the show.

I'm not trying to claim it's anything large or scarring, Blossom. I just remember a quick snap-back on her arm and a look of pain/shock followed by the rest of the scene completely being about something else. I'll scour for it, but it wasn't any longer than 5 seconds in an unrelated scene.

And yes, I agree the show and books are different. Even if the showrunners (for whatever reason) choose to have her eventually dying to fire she will have demonstrated more resistance to it on the show than in the books. That's been their choice.

[Brubear]

You're suffering from the availability heuristic. Dany has more evidence (in the books, to be clear about which I'm debating) of susceptibility to fire than immunity. She has a one-off encounter. That's it. She has multiple mentions of those burns as well as being aware of trying to avoid being burned. Even the "bath" scene is played differently. (In the books the servants carry the water in metal buckets to no ill effect. And there's no servant trying to claim it's too hot.)

But Winters Blossom was referring to the show, so why debate with her about the books? I don't remember the scene in the show where she gets burned by one of her dragons, though I do remember that scene in the book.

I've only read the first two or three, and it was awhile go, so I don't remember her being burned that badly. However, it still is completely plausible within the lore for her to become immune, and would not be out of character or run counter to the established rules of magic within the story.

[Sooba]

There was no scene of her getting burnt by her dragons on the show. Unless you can prove otherwise.

You seem particularly upset about this, to the exclusion of ignoring my points from the books in a discussion that strayed into claiming she was immune in the books as well. You can choose to believe that. It really doesn't matter that much to me either way. I'll look nonetheless. /shrug

[Sooba]

But Winters Blossom was referring to the show, so why debate with her about the books? I don't remember the scene in the show where she gets burned by one of her dragons, though I do remember that scene in the book.

I've only read the first two or three, and it was awhile go, so I don't remember her being burned that badly. However, it still is completely plausible within the lore for her to become immune, and would not be out of character or run counter to the established rules of magic within the story.

Because the claims didn't *just* refer to the show. You folks were trying to show from Martin's comments that he was going to possibly have her immune n the books as well. Even including this recent comment from you:

So in the books she's not immune, she's just highly resistant? Why could this not develop into a full-on immunity?

Again, Martin didn't say it absolutely would not happen again, only that it was unlikely. Given that this statement was made how long ago, why could he not soften his stance?

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"So this happened in the show?"

"...no, but in the books..."

"But the books aren't the show, did this happen in the show?"

"...no, but in the books..."

"But the books aren't the show, did this happen in the show?"

"...no, but in the books..."

And on and on it goes, friends.

Oh come now. That's simply being cynical. Yes they're different, but they're attempting the same story.