Arms Legion Discussion

[Kirbydude65]

The best solution would be to connect the CS reset to rage spent rather than specific skills and balance it accordingly

I think this actually goes against the design goals of Tactician. While the fantasy is kind of weak, the current iteration does provide a play sense of a seasoned soldier, by the concept of conditioning.

In sports, fighting games, sword play, ect. conditioning plays a huge role. The idea is to repeat a similar plan of attack (In Arms' case, Slam/Whirlwind/Execute), to eventually switch and change up your opponent creating an opening for an attack (A tactician proc). By leaving this at a random proc, as opposed to a set amount of rage, you create a playstyle that's predictable and dull. That's exactly what we got with Arms in WoD with Anger Management. A spec prior to HFC, that was very predictable and non-engaging.

Going forward with the current implementation of Tactician, you have one that captures this fantasy of taking advantage of your opponent, and has an engaging playstyle.

That being said, long strings of not hitting a CS proc is pretty lame, and this can be fixed by changing the cooldown of Colossus Smash or Warbreaker, or by changing the proc rate of Tactician.

[Deleted]

I think this actually goes against the design goals of Tactician. While the fantasy is kind of weak, the current iteration does provide a play sense of a seasoned soldier, by the concept of conditioning.

In sports, fighting games, sword play, ect. conditioning plays a huge role. The idea is to repeat a similar plan of attack (In Arms' case, Slam/Whirlwind/Execute), to eventually switch and change up your opponent creating an opening for an attack (A tactician proc). By leaving this at a random proc, as opposed to a set amount of rage, you create a playstyle that's predictable and dull. That's exactly what we got with Arms in WoD with Anger Management. A spec prior to HFC, that was very predictable and non-engaging.

Going forward with the current implementation of Tactician, you have one that captures this fantasy of taking advantage of your opponent, and has an engaging playstyle.

That being said, long strings of not hitting a CS proc is pretty lame, and this can be fixed by changing the cooldown of Colossus Smash or Warbreaker, or by changing the proc rate of Tactician.

Or, if fantasy is so important, they can also make it proc from autoattacks, like we've had in the past..

[Murlocbait]

I think this actually goes against the design goals of Tactician. While the fantasy is kind of weak, the current iteration does provide a play sense of a seasoned soldier, by the concept of conditioning.

In sports, fighting games, sword play, ect. conditioning plays a huge role. The idea is to repeat a similar plan of attack (In Arms' case, Slam/Whirlwind/Execute), to eventually switch and change up your opponent creating an opening for an attack (A tactician proc). By leaving this at a random proc, as opposed to a set amount of rage, you create a playstyle that's predictable and dull. That's exactly what we got with Arms in WoD with Anger Management. A spec prior to HFC, that was very predictable and non-engaging.

Going forward with the current implementation of Tactician, you have one that captures this fantasy of taking advantage of your opponent, and has an engaging playstyle.

That being said, long strings of not hitting a CS proc is pretty lame, and this can be fixed by changing the cooldown of Colossus Smash or Warbreaker, or by changing the proc rate of Tactician.

I disagree. Nothing about the word "Tactician" implies anything about conditioning or that it should be either "predictable" or "dull." That's shitty design for any video game ever. "Tactician" means nothing more than someone with an understanding of tactics - so it really doesn't tell us much about the intended design goal or fantasy. The functionality indicates something very clear regarding the design: use ability X, Y, or Z to fish for procs of ability A. We don't know anything beyond that.

I would argue that limiting it to those abilities is a poor design. Whereas "Each ability you use with a cost, gives you X% chance per Y spent to proc ability A" is far more interesting and still keeps the underlying concept while ditching the weakness of tying it directly to a few specific abilities. Conditioning in real world and competitive environments creates interesting moments because you have people vs people. Creating patterns of behavior so you can surprise someone by breaking it works because of human interaction, not with pre-programmed encounters. In a PvE setting it has no place and should not tie into a fundamental mechanic of a game that is primarily played as a PvE experience.

[WarTV]

so they going to leave arms in its current state ? every legion warrior streamer refuses to play arms even when requested. i am not in beta, but i cant help but wonder if it is really that bad of a spec to play at its current state ?

[Rikhart]

so they going to leave arms in its current state ? every legion warrior streamer refuses to play arms even when requested. i am not in beta, but i cant help but wonder if it is really that bad of a spec to play at its current state ?

No, its not.

[Teaon]

Bajhera stopped playing arms warrior for long

i always see him upload fury warrior, though he used to play arms in alpha, is the spec really shit? i hope blizzard dont go retard mental and ignore the feedbacks

[Bullettime]

No, its not.

It's not that it's necessarily bad but the gameplay right now is not engaging nor makes much sense compared to say Fury or another melee spec entirely who are more fun, more thematically sound, more aesthetically pleasing, and typically do more damage.

Arms is literally just proc fishing right now which is boring as hell after about half an hour.

[Kirbydude65]

Or, if fantasy is so important, they can also make it proc from autoattacks, like we've had in the past..

Because then you're not making an active choice. One of the biggest complaints of WoD Arms was that it wasn't active enough. Making an active decision to press one button as opposed to another adds more to the spec then it simply being added to an auto-attack. That being said tuning needs to be adjusted so that it is actually a choice...

I disagree. Nothing about the word "Tactician" implies anything about conditioning or that it should be either "predictable" or "dull." That's shitty design for any video game ever. "Tactician" means nothing more than someone with an understanding of tactics - so it really doesn't tell us much about the intended design goal or fantasy. The functionality indicates something very clear regarding the design: use ability X, Y, or Z to fish for procs of ability A. We don't know anything beyond that.

Actually a tactician is, "A person skilled in the planning and execution of tactics". They don't simply understand them, they create and execute them. Tactician doesn't imply the act of conditioning, but it is a very common and well practiced plan.

Are you a fan of Anime/Manga? One of my favorite examples of a Tactician that utilizes conditioning, is Yoichi Hiruma from, "Eyeshield 21". Basically the story is about a Japanese football team that's completely outclassed by their rivals, but eventually the team grows and comes together to make an awesome group of players. Yoichi is their quarterback, and due to the lack of capable teammates (and at times, just teammates) he's forced to come up with plays and gambits that lead the team to score points.

Several times in the story he uses conditioning in order to trip up the opposing team and score points. He's often viewed as an imbecile or idiot, but it's all part of a greater plan, that comes together to win. And this isn't just some comic book/cartoon fantasy. It's an age old tactic that's been applied in wars, sports, ect. Hell fencers still practice conditioning. Fight game players do it. It's a very common practice, used to get the upper hand on an opponent.

By using the same ability in rapid succession (Slam), ideally in the fantasy we would be causing our opponent to defend in a specific way. Defend against the mortal strike every six seconds, defend his barrage of slams. Eventually we decide to switch it up (Colossus Smash), followed up by a Mortal Strike, and adding in any other damaging abilities.

It's fairly straight forward fantasy that's captured pretty well considering we're supposed to be seasoned soldiers as Arms Warriors.

[bladeXcrasher]

Because then you're not making an active choice. One of the biggest complaints of WoD Arms was that it wasn't active enough. Making an active decision to press one button as opposed to another adds more to the spec then it simply being added to an auto-attack. That being said tuning needs to be adjusted so that it is actually a choice...

So spamming slam is a choice?

[Archimtiros]

By using the same ability in rapid succession (Slam), ideally in the fantasy we would be causing our opponent to defend in a specific way. Defend against the mortal strike every six seconds, defend his barrage of slams. Eventually we decide to switch it up (Colossus Smash), followed up by a Mortal Strike, and adding in any other damaging abilities.

It's fairly straight forward fantasy that's captured pretty well considering we're supposed to be seasoned soldiers as Arms Warriors.

I understand the idea you're going for, but it simply doesn't translate into this type of gameplay: enemies don't react to our attacks, there's nobody to fool. You can rationalize anything; I can make arguments for flying, I can make arguments against flying, I can make arguments for Slam spam just as easily as I can make arguments against.

Just because you can rationalize it though, doesn't mean it's good design. In this case, it's not.

[Murlocbait]

I understand the idea you're going for, but it simply doesn't translate into this type of gameplay: enemies don't react to our attacks, there's nobody to fool. You can rationalize anything; I can make arguments for flying, I can make arguments against flying, I can make arguments for Slam spam just as easily as I can make arguments against.

Just because you can rationalize it though, doesn't mean it's good design. In this case, it's not.

Basically this ^ and I'll even quote myself because you ignored it when you replied to me:

Conditioning in real world and competitive environments creates interesting moments because you have people vs people. Creating patterns of behavior so you can surprise someone by breaking it works because of human interaction, not with pre-programmed encounters. In a PvE setting it has no place and should not tie into a fundamental mechanic of a game that is primarily played as a PvE experience.

It works in sports, war, fencing, etc. because that's a person against another person. It's like bluffing in poker - it works and is compelling for all involved because people are a force of chaos and uncertainty within the whole thing. Will the opponent go for the bluff/conditioning, or won't they? In a PvE situation, it doesn't work that way. No one gives two shits about bluffing in a game of video poker because computers don't work like humans, no matter how well you program them.

Your analogy would work IF there was some sort of pattern - using one ability ad infinitum is NOT a pattern - that created that opportunity. For example, if Tactician worked like this:

Tactician: Gain one stack of "Tactician" every time you hit an enemy with Slam, Mortal Strike, Focused Rage, Overpower, Whirlwind, and Execute. When you gain 10 stacks of Tactician, the cooldown on Colossus Smash is reset. You may not gain more than two stacks of Tactician from the same consecutive ability.

Now, I'm not saying it should work like that, but if it did, THEN it would work how you are saying, because then your rotation would work off a pattern. You would be forced to break up Slam spam in order to avoid the last part, and it would encourage use of other abilities since they would all give you stacks. There is no pattern in the current design, because it only rewards one thing: Slam (ok, or WW or Execute, but those are situational), so your analogy to Conditioning is simply not accurate. Plus, it's not interesting because Conditioning vs a computer is meaningless. If you can trick yourself into finding it interesting with the Conditioning analogy, then have fun with that - but I find it utterly lacking.

[Kirbydude65]

So spamming slam is a choice?

At the moment, sadly it's not. Moving forward with tuning it could be.

I understand the idea you're going for, but it simply doesn't translate into this type of gameplay: enemies don't react to our attacks, there's nobody to fool.

True. But in PVE you can only simulate so many things without it becoming convoluted. While not the best of designs, I think it shows the basic principal of the idea in a way that doesn't overload the player or make things too complicated.

Regardless of design, the larger problem with the spec at the moment is slams efficiency.

[Archimtiros]

True. But in PVE you can only simulate so many things without it becoming convoluted. While not the best of designs, I think it shows the basic principal of the idea in a way that doesn't overload the player or make things too complicated.

Regardless of design, the larger problem with the spec at the moment is slams efficiency.

It doesn't need to be simulated though, because the game doesn't consider it. It's decent rationalization of why the rotation is so simplistic, but it still faces the same problem in that it's completely outside the bounds of every other rotation in the game. It's like saying "Warriors can't use magic because magic isn't real", which ignores the fact that other classes can use magic; the rationalization doesn't fit.

Like I said before, you can rationalize anything, but that doesn't make it right.

- - - Updated - - -

I think it shows the basic principal of the idea in a way that doesn't overload the player or make things too complicated..

I'd also like to point out that there is a middle ground between absolute simplicity and over-complication.

[bladeXcrasher]

At the moment, sadly it's not. Moving forward with tuning it could be.

There is never a choice in WoW, just the illusion of. Even with tuning, still won't be any choice. Best it would do is allow you to press MS without shattered defenses.

[Kirbydude65]

Like I said before, you can rationalize anything, but that doesn't make it right.

Agreed. But I am entitled to my own opinion, regardless if it's correct or indifferent from others.

A lot of people think this spec (Legion Arms) is the worst ever, I think it's not terrible.

[Caargon]

Bajhera stopped playing arms warrior for long

i always see him upload fury warrior, though he used to play arms in alpha, is the spec really shit? i hope blizzard dont go retard mental and ignore the feedbacks

Bajheera doesn't play arms in beta because, in his words, it dies too easily. Especially when fury is just next door being basically invincible.

[Archimtiros]

Agreed. But I am entitled to my own opinion, regardless if it's correct or indifferent from others.

A lot of people think this spec (Legion Arms) is the worst ever, I think it's not terrible.

Well it was a blanket statement, not directed at you in particular. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm certainly entitled to debate it as well.

As for overall design, I think it's far superior to WoD and even some previous designs as well, though that's not to say it isn't still flawed.

[Nition]

I honestly don't know what I'm going to play in Legion. I took another stab at arms on the PvP server yesterday (I'm primarily a PvP'er), going in open-minded in an attempt to try see past all the problems. I couldn't even stomach more than 1 or 2 battlegrounds. We have nothing, except damage. And that damage is useless when you're dead the whole time. The massive reliance on having a pocket healer is so absurd its laughable. I spent most of the games trying to stick with my group as best I could, and even then most teams will pick out the glass cannon arms and clear them off quickly.

Multiple fights I was thinking, I could really use a heal, time to enraged rege........ oh
I guess I can go defensive stance, buuuut there goes all my damage. Maybe I just got unlucky in the bg's I played, but we need something to help us survive better. Most fights I pop my 1 shot macro, get a bit of burst out, then people focus me and I die in a couple of globals, especially if I don't have my fear/shockwave up. And don't even attempt to try 1v1 or 1v2, there is not a hope in hell you'll come out of that the winner. I never thought I'd say this but at this point WoD arms is 10x better than Legion arms (for PvP, before you all shout at me), not only in how good the spec, but also how enjoyable it is.

[Deleted]

I honestly don't know what I'm going to play in Legion. I took another stab at arms on the PvP server yesterday (I'm primarily a PvP'er), going in open-minded in an attempt to try see past all the problems. I couldn't even stomach more than 1 or 2 battlegrounds. We have nothing, except damage. And that damage is useless when you're dead the whole time. The massive reliance on having a pocket healer is so absurd its laughable. I spent most of the games trying to stick with my group as best I could, and even then most teams will pick out the glass cannon arms and clear them off quickly.

Multiple fights I was thinking, I could really use a heal, time to enraged rege........ oh
I guess I can go defensive stance, buuuut there goes all my damage. Maybe I just got unlucky in the bg's I played, but we need something to help us survive better. Most fights I pop my 1 shot macro, get a bit of burst out, then people focus me and I die in a couple of globals, especially if I don't have my fear/shockwave up. And don't even attempt to try 1v1 or 1v2, there is not a hope in hell you'll come out of that the winner. I never thought I'd say this but at this point WoD arms is 10x better than Legion arms (for PvP, before you all shout at me), not only in how good the spec, but also how enjoyable it is.

Not unlucky, it is the way you have experienced it. Arms in PVP is useless (right now at least) without a pocket healer. I honestly have no clue what they thought when they designed the class, especially Tier 4 of our talent tree. Second Wind - Heal effect that becomes active when you have not taken damage for five seconds (what for? When that happens I will just eat some food, same effect), Die by the sword is not bad but it does not heal yourself. Bounding stride is good but again, not a defensive CD. Damage seems actually quite ok but, as you said yourself, does not matter that much when you're dead most of the time.

[Breccia]

As for overall design, I think it's far superior to WoD

Baseline WoD Arms was a useless pile of golden retriever droppings and you know it more than most because you were there. This comparison is meaningless and borderline comical. How does it play as a spec in general?