I HATE rich people...

[Spectral]

The rich do not create jobs. Do you think anyone would be hired to produce a product if there was no consumer demand for it? Yes/no?

There are all sorts of products that are made before there's any obvious demand for them, then the demand explodes. One way to get very wealthy is to identify something that consumers want that they don't even know they want yet. Looking at Google, for example, that's 57,000 jobs (many of which are high pay) that were created to develop products that people didn't even know they wanted until they were there. A number of the investors got very wealthy as a result of this and obviously did create jobs.

I think your mental model of how this works gets the horse before the cart.

[Deleted]

Well, I can't say I got out of my way to hide any of our money but I do invest it. :P Perhaps I'm reading too much into your words 'spend it in society', but are you trying to say "I don't care what you buy, just spend it"?

Invest =/= Spend it. I don't think everything has to be done for high profit, or even for profit. We have a housing problem, we have a problem with lack of places in elderly care homes and so forth. Spend(Or invest, just don't do it for high profits while cutting on care in elderly care homes.) that money there. Healthcare and schools should never be for profit though, like they are becoming more and more as people invest in them instead for profits, whilst making cuts to make even more profits.

[WskyDK]

They think they own the world

*Looks around*
They do.

[Shadowferal]

Most wealthy these days are simply born into it.

[Ghostpanther]

The rich (well, I'd say business owner, but not all business owners are "rich") certainly create jobs. I created 5 the instant I opened my business and current count is 37.

Yep and if you were richer how many more jobs do you think you would have created?

[Deleted]

I hate everyone who wields power.

That includes a lot of rich people but not all of them.

[alexw]

This isn't how burden of proof works. If you're claiming a collective conspiracy, it's not on me to prove that there is no conspiracy.

To the extent that real estate bubble was a problem, very little of that was a result of collective action and less still was the result of deliberate conspiracy on the part of "the rich" (which, again is not a real group). On the contrary, the problems were about bad incentives and lack of coordination to solve the problem.

Err what where did I say it was a conspiracy? A collective action problem is not a conspiracy. In fact it is the exact opposite of one.

And the real estate bubble was 100% the result of the actions of the rich, either here or abroad. There was/is simply too much saving vs productive investment opportunities on a global level, due to the rising share of global income held by the rich, and when the rich cannot make money from productive investment they inevitably put money into already existing assets and non-productive investments. We call those things economic bubbles. We are still suffering from the problem even now.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Spoiler alert, the wealthy wouldn't be able to rig the system and enact legislation that allows them to limit competition if the gov't didn't have its hands in the pot.

Then you limit government's power, and in that vacuum of power, corporations take over. The magical hand of the free market is a myth. Everyone dies. The end.

There will always be someone with power. This mythical idea of the free market working relies on a vacuum of power existing indefinitely, which will not happen.

[Daelak]

As oppose to what, taking it from them and giving it to someone else? Here that is called robbery.

This thread is going to be nothing but a bunch of salty people claiming everyone who is rich got there by climbing on the backs of others, blah blah blah, etc etc, typical salty shit.

You don't really think that's how the economy operates do you?

[Katchii]

I hate assholes, rich or not. The amount of money someone has doesn't matter to me as long as they're a decent person.

[Deleted]

Why would I hate people I've never even met?

How rich are we talking? Millionaires? Billionaires? People earning 40k a year? It's relative. To me anybody earning over £30,000 a year is rich, haha.

In this world you get nice people and you get assholes. There will be nice rich people and there will be asshole rich people. There will be nice poor people and asshole poor people. The amount of wealth they have is irrelevant.

So no I do not hate rich people. However, I do hate assholes. So if you're a rich asshole I'll hate you, but if you're a rich nice person, I'll like you. Simple as that.

[alturic]

Invest =/= Spend it. I don't think everything has to be done for high profit. We have a housing problem, we have a problem with lack of places in elderly care homes and so forth. Spend(Or invest, just don't do it for high profits while cutting on care in elderly care homes.) that money there.

Heh, the invest comment was meant as a "I don't go out of my way to hide money from taxes". So, you're trying to say that people who are "rich" should randomly do things they don't want to do (example, build houses or elder care homes) "just because they have the money to do so"? That's some kind of fucked up, no?

As for the profit comment, that's what's wrong with people who don't accumulate wealth. Sure, I totally (truly, I do) get that living paycheck-to-paycheck is a hard cycle to break, but with the mentality of "not everything has to be done for profit" you never will break that cycle. Yes, you need money to make money.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep and if you were richer how many more jobs do you think you would have created?

Whatever your expected answer is, I don't get what you're trying to get at? I mean, I could go off on some super in-depth "well, if I was richer I would hire more people because I would dump even more money into advertising, in turn bringing in more clients which in turn means I need more server technicians, CS, etc"?

[Rooflesstoofless]

I've found that people in general (not just the wealthy) who put all their worth into showing off with material goods are shallow and not worth your time or effort.

The appearance of wealth is fluid. Honestly, come spend time where I live and see for yourself. There are people who ride bicycles everywhere and put no effort into keeping up with the latest fashions that have more actual wealth than most people in the US. There are also people who drive $90,000 sports cars and can be seen out partying every weekend but have to live with four roommates in a two bedroom apartment and are only one or two missed paychecks away from financial disaster.

BTW, you can spend less than $5,000 on a used motorcycle that would dust just about any sports car on the market up to 100mph and you wouldn't even have to sit in traffic if you're willing to split lanes.

[Spectral]

Err what where did I say it was a conspiracy? A collective action problem is not a conspiracy. In fact it is the exact opposite of one.

You continue to claim that groups as loosely affiliated as sharing some level of income are acting collectively. This is obviously not the case.

And the real estate bubble was 100% the result of the actions of the rich, either here or abroad. There was/is simply too much saving vs productive investment opportunities on a global level, due to the rising share of global income held by the rich, and when the rich cannot make money from productive investment they inevitably put money into already existing assets and non-productive investments. We call those things economic bubbles. We are still suffering from the problem even now.

The bolded is just objectively false. There's no plausible story of the recession that doesn't include bad policy-making that resulted in bad incentives for both investors and home-buyers. No group involved gets off the hook.

Besides this, the savings glut just wasn't the primary driver of the financial crisis. It's a contributor to slow recovery, but not the initial crisis.

[twiddler]

I used to think the same way, until I learned what it takes to own said ferrari (enzo? laferrari? f50? cant imagine a 458 speciale or 599 gto being more than 300k). The tires are 30k each, the oil has to be done by Ferrari for 15k every 2500 miles, and the insurance costs of owning, as opposed to turning the ignition switch to drive it, varies for some god awful reason. So everyone that owns a car more sporty or expensive than a 911 RS or turbo pretty much as to pay their insurance company before they put the car in drive. So no one drives those cars. American roads suck anyways and hardly any road in the world can compensate "road" race cars that they label as "exotic" or "supercars".

ever seen a Zonda encounter a speed bump? hilarious...

Very much true but your average owner knows this. Money itself isn't the problem. It will always be insured, you will always perform time based maintenance, etc. Your typical white noise member isn't that Californian BMW driver leveraging 100% their salary to purchase an M3 to cruise down Irvine.

[Deleted]

Heh, the invest comment was meant as a "I don't go out of my way to hide money from taxes". So, you're trying to say that people who are "rich" should randomly do things they don't want to do (example, build houses or elder care homes) "just because they have the money to do so"? That's some kind of fucked up, no?

Why is that fucked up? If you're not gonna spend the money, why care about it?

As for the profit comment, that's what's wrong with people who don't accumulate wealth. Sure, I totally (truly, I do) get that living paycheck-to-paycheck is a hard cycle to break, but with the mentality of "not everything has to be done for profit" you never will break that cycle. Yes, you need money to make money.

...? The healthcare and school in Sweden used to be almost solely for the state to handle before and wasn't made to profit. It was made to provide healthcare at quality and educational quality, instead of for profit. It's gotten worse since the market started getting involved in it, thanks to the whole "provide it for profit". That's why I support the left party in their demands for "no profit" in school and healthcare and so forth. Luxury things can be for profit, but education and healthcare is not luxury and shouldn't be considered as such when it's paid for by our taxes.

[Adam Jensen]

Well, I can't say I got out of my way to hide any of our money but I do invest it. :P Perhaps I'm reading too much into your words 'spend it in society', but are you trying to say "I don't care what you buy, just spend it"?

Spending money on goods and services keeps the money moving. Doesn't matter what they buy so long as it is a good or service. Or they can pay taxes, like any patriot should.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Spectral gets it.

I've never said that corporations and large companies are innocent, they are doing what they were designed to do, make money. It's not exactly a murder she wrote mystery to understand that they will utilize every advantage they can to further that cause, including manipulating the gov't.

The gov't is the real culprit here, they have an excess of power that is used to enact the legislation that limits growth, puts small business at a disadvantage, and ultimately hurts the economy.

Somehow though, the tools of MMOC have the misplaced view that if *only* we would just strengthen gov't just a lil more they will solve all our problems and stick it to the man!!!

Ahem...the Gov't is the man.

Why some folks believe that gov't workers are somehow uncorruptable and accountable is laughable at best, frightening at worst.

"The government has power, so it's the government's fault that corporations are manipulating the system!"



How come government always works so amazingly well when we have presidents and legislators who tell the corporations to shove their money up their ass?

We get it, you're going to sit here and tell us that corporations aren't "Blameless" because you know they're not, but you actually believe that this is all the government's fault... for being manipulated by corporations.

I work with regulations, and it seems some of them are designed purely to cut off someone else's competitive edge. If you declaw the government and take away their power, corporations step in and take whatever vacuum of power suddenly exists. Don't sit there and pretend that it won't happen, that someone won't take advantage of it when it's so easy for the taking.

[Deleted]

I hate everyone who wields power.

That includes a lot of rich people but not all of them.

I feel you.

I don't think someone's wealth is enough to judge someone by, but I can see why you would.

[Daelak]

Rich people keep the economy going with their outrageous purchases. They employ all sorts of people to cater their events, take care of their houses, and watch their children.

This is not how the economy operates at all. Concordant with modern economic theory, The wealthy are an actual drag and a catalyst for inefficiencies and graft in the economy due to the very nature of wealth inequality. The irrational wealth hoarding of individuals and businesses inhibit growth, thereby lowering both societal and economic gains due to bottlenecking the velocity of money.