Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[Gilgameshh]

Thanks for the acknowledgement, and right back at you.

I think I generally agree with your points, and they definitely seem plausible. It is probably a bit too complex to completely unravel without some serious research in the subject, and you raise some valid arguments for your case. You might be right, and I admit that I don't know if you are or not.

On the mythic dungeon part: I think it is too early to tell how well it will work out. The thing about modifiers and scaling hp + damage is that those things combined with the existing mechanics can open up for entirely new situations. On difficulty 1 with no modifiers, you pop a cooldown when the boss does X. On difficulty 7 with a modifier, you might have to pop several cooldowns to survive it. On difficulty 15 you might have to try to dodge it, or LoS it, or kite the boss. So, in short, it might make the dungeon feel completely new to play through, even though the layout and visuals are the same.

I don't know if it will be as great as I hope it will, but hopefully it will Nice to finally see some well thought out, objective, constructive argumentation from "the other side".

I fully admit that you could be right as well. Like you said, it's a very complex issue and we don't have much to go from. I can only speak from personal experience; definitely not an expert.

I see your point about Mythic+ and I think that's definitely something to take into account. I really do hope it's better than I'm anticipating because I've been looking forward to challenging dungeons since early Cataclysm.

Debates with people like you and some others are the sole reason I enjoy posting on/reading these threads. We're obviously all passionate enough about the game and it's enjoyable to look at things from other well developed perspectives.

[Xada]

LFR is just a loot pinata casuals want and they are too greedy to admit it. They just have discovered that using this "pleasant facade" is a good way to get what they want, gear. Everyone remember the massive bitch-fit the forums threw when Blizzard decided to create new gear for lfr that wasn't raid gear minus a couple item levels? That was the veil coming off.

PvE content isn't even exclusive, hell raiding isn't even exclusive, it's just work that very few people put forth the effort to do. That's it. Is it really hard to fathom there's just a large group of players who are too lazy make it to the end of the game?

[Aehl]

Is it really hard to fathom there's just a large group of players who are too lazy make it to the end of the game?

The reasons for LFR have been enumerated any number of times, and I cant fathom why you dont know this already. They doi make it to the end of the game, they just prefer LFR to organised raising and set schedules.

As for "loot pinata", either you havent run LFR at all, or you dont know full well that you can run all wings and get gold gold and more gold each time.

How hard this this to understand?

[Deleted]

Sorry, no. On private property, in a game forum, they dont exist. You have the privilege to speak, not a right.

Even here you post as a privilege, and that privilege can be revoked at any time. Any games company including Blizzard can ban and close your account at any time for any reason. Not that they WOULD, no one is that bloody minded (thankfully).

Here as well, we post on their tolerance..and the mods can and will ban you if you step over the line.

Basically this guy did an Asmongold "remove this" "remove that" "this is bad for the game"...he got on their nerves. Cant say as Im sorry, If you dont like the way the game is designed, if you dont like what they are doing, you can post feedback, you can offer suggestions sure..but this guy was "campaigning" to have things removed and trying to pressure the devs.

So they gave him the bum's rush.

Yeah, campaigning to get things changed because you think differently, that's just pure evil stuff right there. Good thing our benevolent Democracies stamped out such disgraceful, lowly practices across the globe. We're far better off just falling in line, blindly repeating whatever our benevolent overlords decree "is best for us" instead of voicing our objections to things.

I mean, when has that ever worked out well for anyone, anywhere at any point in time, in history. Especially in Video Games. Yeah, nothing's ever been changed for the better by people campaigning on Forums. Nope, nope!

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The reasons for LFR have been enumerated any number of times, and I cant fathom why you dont know this already. They doi make it to the end of the game, they just prefer LFR to organised raising and set schedules.

As for "loot pinata", either you havent run LFR at all, or you dont know full well that you can run all wings and get gold gold and more gold each time.

How hard this this to understand?

Hypothetically speaking, I think it's quite possible he was referring to the whole "beat the pinata, once it breaks, candy falls out" in the sense that "regardless of if you beat the horse (i.e. Bosses) once or ten times, the "pinata" will eventually break, & its candy will fall out."

Then again, what do I know.

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Is it really hard to fathom there's just a large group of players who are too lazy make it to the end of the game?

Yes. You know that one pun about "De Nile" not just being a river in Egypt?

Yeah.

[Jewsco]

LFR factors in.

The problem is people gear to quickly. What blizz needs to do is slow down gear to a utter crawl outside of raids. I mean a struggle to get even blues.

WoDs problem was you could beat the non raid content in a hour from being just golden showered on with heroic raid quality gear and after that mythic quality.

Quickly have you run lfr? One gets geared way more quickly spending an hour in ashran or picking loot off the ground in tanaan. Lfr gear is crap and none of that gear is guarenteed. One can not win gear in there for weeks how is that quick? And the gear stinks anyway. But again keep the myth alive.

[Xada]

The reasons for LFR have been enumerated any number of times, and I cant fathom why you dont know this already. They doi make it to the end of the game, they just prefer LFR to organised raising and set schedules.

As for "loot pinata", either you havent run LFR at all, or you dont know full well that you can run all wings and get gold gold and more gold each time.

How hard this this to understand?

No, there's nothing we're missing here, the gold isn't great. I understand completely, you want the loot pinata, but you tell everyone you want it for these other things because then you sound less like a greedy dick.

[Kokolums]

I define "see all the content" as seeing each raid boss as originally designed when it was an unbugged/uncheesed world first kill. The way Blizzard designs the game with nerfing bosses after x amount of time, its actually impossible to see all the content. I'm not interested in killing Archimonde the watered-down boss. I want to kill him at his best.

[shyguybman]

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<Insert nodding face GIF & "slow clap" GIF>

Thank you, once again :P

Burning Crusade had a great progression path for everyone (if not most people), IMO: The hardcore players spammed through Heroic Dungeons, Tier 4 Raids, & moved on to Tier 5 Raids pretty quickly, while the not-so-Hardcore players got to take their time with Heroic Dungeons, & eventually Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon, & Serpentshrine Caverns' early Bosses. Eventually, the Hardcore moved on to Tier 6 (Black Temple), while the not-so-Hardcore were generally around Tier 5 (Tempest Keep, Battle of Mount Hyjal). Then came Zul'Aman - a breath of fresh air for both Hardcore & non alike - & of course, Tier 6.5 (Sunwell).

Definitely agree with this. I loved TBC because there was so much raiding content available and you were "forced" to do it if you wanted to progress. I was also in a hardcore guild so maybe that is why I liked it because we were never stuck on anything but regardless I loved being able to raid so much.

[Nubulous]

congratulations, you got my point. It is all speculation, however the evidence supports that it wasn't exclusivity that made wow better.



I agree, but that is because it gives worse gear then you can gain by doing nothing. Its gear is so weird ... you can get better gear (295 from Tanaan) which is less work than LFR. And that isn't including you can get normal gear from the timewalking events which outside of cata I don't find challenging at all.

I feel that LFR is too undertuned. I feel that mop LFR was bad, but WoD was too far in the other direction.

I would argue doing Tanaan is way more work than watching netflix and doing LFR

[Aehl]

Yeah, campaigning to get things changed because you think differently, that's just pure evil stuff right there.Good thing our benevolent Democracies stamped out such disgraceful, lowly practices across the globe. We're far better off just falling in line, blindly repeating whatever our benevolent overlords decree "is best for us" instead of voicing our objections to things.

I was referring more to this "freedom of speech" in games forums where the rules are what the owners say they are. They are not democracies. In this case, as I understand it, the guy more or less wore out his welcome.

No, there's nothing we're missing here, the gold isn't great. I understand completely, you want the loot pinata, but you tell everyone you want it for these other things because then you sound less like a greedy dick.

Most of the gear my toons have TBH. comes from Tanaan, not from LFR. That and crafted gear which can be 3 x 715 which is better than what drops out of LFR.

Is it really hard to fathom there's just a large group of players who are too lazy make it to the end of the game?

It has zero to do with "lazy" there are just a lot of players who are not interested in organised raiding. Either they have done it and fed up with it, or they have decided for their own reasons that LFR suits their needs adequately

As was said previously, a lot of people who are in LFR never raided before, and many of them have no wish to move to "higher difficulties". You cant give an incentive for those who arent interested anyway. Just because LFR isnt up to the same "difficulty and challenge" as Normal etc doesnt mean it isnt valid to them.

"But they should WANT to get better and raid with a real raiding team"

Why should they want to?

They should have something to aspire to, they should see some guy in epic gear and think I wanna be like that guy"

Nah, no thanks. Happy with what I have.

[Daffan]

What you fail to understand is that exclusiveness has nothing to to with "special snowflakes" .

Some players like to just jump right into their theme park rides and some want goals to work towards. Meaningful goals. Its satisfying to finally get that staff of PWN after working 3 months for it and seeing a performance increase. This is why I started to play MMOs and why I dont play games like CoD.

This is my angle too.

It's like using cheat codes in singleplayer games, when you win - it doesn't feel as good. Exact same principle when getting welfare in this game as a casual player to me.

Again, you dont get it. If you (or any other player) is pretty casual and chooses to log in once a week, then yes, chances are they will never see it. If youre suggesting the game needs to cater to them and ignore the players who want to play say at least few hours a day as to them, if the casual Sunday gamer will get the staff, then to more active players it actually is just giving it away. They'll get it in a week and thats not really putting in effort and after they get it, what then? Why continue to play if there are no more goals? It isnt just about gear either. To a lot of players, its exciting to work on bosses and then to finally down them, move past and see the next one. You want to take that away and are feeling entitled.

So yes, using your logic, everyones a special snowflake. So you're saying, dont just give it to us, give to us at a pace of MY choosing. Im gonna play the devils advocate for a bit. What if even a more casual player comes along and wants the same? Say they only log in once a month and have an hour to play. Maybe 5 minutes? They're still paying the sub, so why shouldnt they get to see everything? So whos the special snowflake now, or would you change your mind and give everyone everything instantly?

I'm so far behind I find myself double quoting you. Agreed

LOL that guy is yet another faux "hardcore" who raids LFR and then makes up excuses why he can't do any better. It's crazy shit but there are tons of them around here. They have impenetrable cognitive dissonance and dunning kruger effect to the max. In reality anyone can go straight to at least normal with only a modicum of effort, but they'll scream about lazy casuals one second and how much they love hard content the next second and then the next second admit they can't be bothered putting in any effort to go beyond the easiest possible path. It's a bizarre phenomenon.

Why would anyone be doing heroic highmaul/brf (example of why skipping is bad) or mythic dungeons when LFR hfc/bale/pvp is better.

Probably not the answer you are expecting, but it's what everyone is trying to convey. It doesn't have to be -just- about heroic HFC

Quickly have you run lfr? One gets geared way more quickly spending an hour in ashran or picking loot off the ground in tanaan. Lfr gear is crap and none of that gear is guarenteed. One can not win gear in there for weeks how is that quick? And the gear stinks anyway. But again keep the myth alive.

The gear is better then Highmaul Mythic. But it doesn't really matter at the moment your right - because pvp is so much easier and so is baleful.

[Trapped]

This is my angle too.

It's like using cheat codes in singleplayer games, when you win - it doesn't feel as good. Exact same principle when getting welfare in this game as a casual player to me.



I'm so far behind I find myself double quoting you. Agreed

Hello all, OP here. Wow, page 47, didn't expect this. I quoted this post because its basically how I feel. I understand how LFR fits into the game in the eyes of the devs, but I truly believe they are out of touch with their own game, I really do. LFR is not a great endgame model, period. It teaches new players absolutely nothing, and I'd even say in most cases that it can even teach old players bad habits.

We can all agree that LFR gear is crap, right? But casual players don't care if their gear is 10 item levels below normal HFC, that's the issue. They are SEEING each boss, and for most, that's good enough. Some might ask, "Why is that a problem? Why does it matter if LFR is the endgame for some players?" It devalues raiding, and more specific, guild raiding. It waters it down to a point that many people have abandoned guild raiding altogether just to do LFR or cross-realm pugs.

LFR is not an enriching endgame model to give people that awesome raiding experience, and this is coming from someone that is only pugging HFC because the guild options are absolutely atrocious on my server, and the recruitment options for my own guild are just as bad.

[Gilgameshh]

snip

Are you against any actual challenge in your WoW play? What do you enjoy about this game? Do you just like looking at your character tab and seeing a bunch of epics that required little to no effort to acquire? I don't understand, but I truly do want to.

LFR's rewards do not even come close to matching its difficulty. It causes power creep as one of the four difficulties of raiding. It was poorly implemented in Cataclysm and has never seen a reasonable iteration since. The one good thing about it is that it allows the ultra casual to see the story.

Tanaan was part of the end-game patch. What did your gear look like before Tanaan was released? I'm assuming it was three pieces of crafted gear and LFR? What other options did you have for content? But you're okay with Blizzard slapping a joke difficulty on raiding and calling it content for you, a non-raider. Are you going to be trying to progress in Mythic+? When the 2nd tier of LFR comes out and blows away all your efforts in Mythic+, which will actually be challenging, are you just going to say wow yeah this is totally acceptable?

What you say about LFR giving incentive to raid is true: it doesn't give incentive if the person doesn't already want to raid. No one should feel forced to do content they don't want to do. LFR is that thing that forces people to raid (who don't want to) to upgrade their legendary ring, and likely upgrade their artifact weapon in Legion. Can you tell me why that's okay?

[Deleted]

If there was no hearty subscription fee then it would not matter.

[mysticx]

LFR is not an enriching endgame model to give people that awesome raiding experience, and this is coming from someone that is only pugging HFC because the guild options are absolutely atrocious on my server, and the recruitment options for my own guild are just as bad.

But despite all that, people are abandoning the (supposedly) majestic spectacle that is guild raiding to do LfR instead, so to a lot of people organized raiding isn't all that appealing after all, that's the big issue Blizzard and organized guilds face: how do you make organized raiding more appealing without walling off raids to PuGs again?

[Trapped]

But despite all that, people are abandoning the (supposedly) majestic spectacle that is guild raiding to do LfR instead, so to a lot of people organized raiding isn't all that appealing after all, that's the big issue Blizzard and organized guilds face: how do you make organized raiding more appealing without walling off raids to PuGs again?

I suspect most players that started in the LFR era haven't experienced guild raiding at a high level (could be wrong), and might be intimidated to take the next step. Before LFR, if you wanted to raid, you put your big girl panties on and went for it. I don't even think people are necessarily abandoning guild raiding (ok some are), but the issue is that newer players aren't wanting to even try it. LFR and Tanaan gearing is enough for them, slap on pet battles, transmog and mount collecting, and that's the game they want to play.

As far as the PuG issue goes, thats where server communities and guild raiding used to shine. Guild-hosted pugs were always abundant in trade chat, especially on the weekends. I mean, if you're not into guild raiding, it really doesn't matter what server you're on anymore, and that's kinda sad.

[Deleted]

It has zero to do with "lazy" there are just a lot of players who are not interested in organised raiding. Either they have done it and fed up with it, or they have decided for their own reasons that LFR suits their needs adequately.

Nope most of us what start doing LFR only it is becouse it is more efficient and path least resistence. Blizz gave me way to see content in faceroll difficulty so i start doing that intead of heroic/mythic raiding. Back in the days i was forced to do top end raiding in order to see content so i did that. Now i have option to just press button see content and leave game until new patch is released.

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But despite all that, people are abandoning the (supposedly) majestic spectacle that is guild raiding to do LfR instead, so to a lot of people organized raiding isn't all that appealing after all, that's the big issue Blizzard and organized guilds face: how do you make organized raiding more appealing without walling off raids to PuGs again?

You make raids exlcusive again. 1 difficulty for everybody and you will see how guilds will start getting new players back into raiding. Blizzard gave us option to see content for free as solo players only really stupid peron would not pick such efficient way to see content over hours and houts of progressin for useless item rewards, mounts and titles what these days means absolutly nothing to anyone.

[Darththeo]

I would argue doing Tanaan is way more work than watching netflix and doing LFR

See rare, wait until someone else hits it ... strike it once ... get loot. Not only that, but you can buy the items that get loot with those Apexis crystal just from doing your garrison ... seriously, I have to have gotten more of those things from my garrison then anywhere else.

I can see you have an argument for it, but I still find less effort getting gear in tanaan.

[Dormie]

Because they genuinely enjoy it, and they don't do any other content that gives them higher ilvl gear.

You can prove that that's why people do LFR? I'll wait for your data.

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I can make that same argument against mythic raiding as well. I find these arguments that suggest that because lfr had good gear behind people would do it to be particularly funny. Mythic has the best gear behind it and that's largely why people do it. If you gonna single out lfr for bribing players then you've just made the case that all of raiding is a skinner box. Why lfr gets singled out I'm not sure.

Because LfR is doable with the push of a button.

[Aydinx2]

Special snowflaking much?

You need to understand that this is a game. I pay the same to play it as you, I should be denied content because I am not as good as you are?

Yes. That's what videogames are.
You paying for content does not entitle you to it. I don't understand how people can think this. It's not the same as a book or movie, that comparison just doesn't apply.