Raids Are Important, Even If You Never See Them

[JaceDraccus]

I don't just think raids made wow successful, and I was the same way. I did 1-10 without knowing there were talents, 1-40 not knowing there were professions, and didn't raid until way after that. But having that those tough raids looming in the distance gave me something to work towards in the long term, along with all the other things you can do in wow.

My point is the tough raids were never looming in the distance for me. Even when I started hearing names like Naxx or AQ40, or seeing people with cool, even legendary weapons, I didn't really understand about it all... I didn't really get that deep into it until ICC.

I didn't play to raid. I just played.

And I find it hard to believe I was the only one out of the millions who played.

Sure, raids can be a motivator, but it's not the only thing that brings people to the game and keeps them there.

[Starry Sidekick]

My point is the tough raids were never looming in the distance for me. Even when I started hearing names like Naxx or AQ40, or seeing people with cool, even legendary weapons, I didn't really understand about it all... I didn't really get that deep into it until ICC.

I didn't play to raid. I just played.

And I find it hard to believe I was the only one out of the millions who played.

Sure, raids can be a motivator, but it's not the only thing that brings people to the game and keeps them there.

I agree. I play for the world and story mostly, and that is why the way raids are presented is important to me. They are just a piece of the puzzle that make up the things you can do one you hit max level. And, in regards to the story, they are "the" endgame.

The raids themselves weren't what kept me in the game back then. It was the meta and structure surrounding them, the extensions of that system that effected how the rest of the game played.

[Lolsteak]

Ulduar was my favorite style of raids hands down, The way hardmodes were activated during the fight felt like a solid natural progression in the raid compared to right clicking your character portrait and selecting heroic.

It made me feel more connected to the raid and felt less tedious when rerunning the same bosses for hardmodes.

Like you said

"I cleared the Mythic/Heroic/LFR version of Black Temple" | "I killed the Mythic/Heroic/LFR version of Illidan"

It felt better having a singular boss and a hardmode activated during the fight (Ok there was 10/25 player, I didn't do 10 though).

[Lieutenant Dan]

ULD - One difficulty, with Hard Modes. Everything else is fluff.

[stomination]

Warlords put the lie to that. Nearly 5 million quit before the last tier of raids was even out.

That sentence you quoted doesn't just fit into raiding.

[Plutarch78]

How many more of these god damn threads have to be made? Seriously! Just let it go! Stop being so fucking stuck in the vanilla/bc era of raiding because frankly it sucked.

[McNeil]

Good old Ulduar hard mode, I just love those extra interactions with the boss like pushing the red button to activate hard mode. Now everything is done in menus. And yeah some people could screw it up, but thats part of the challenge. Though I really liked the ICC/Cata model that came afterwards aswell, just 2 difficulties which is more then enough.

[Nubulous]

vanilla and TBC raids were a horrific failure. Wotlk weren't necessarily that much better, but they had some bright spots.

not sure there are rose colored glasses thick enough to nostalgia my way into thinking otherwise



not in the slightest. WoW would have been and could still be a better game with zero raiding. they're already not important to the vast majority of players and never have been. they are not the reason WoW has been successful in the past.

you can clearly see that Blizzard devs thought otherwise when the game started. they figured raids were important, probably because of EQ1. they were wrong and have been slowly realizing that over the past 12 years.

How were they a complete failure in BC? Didnt Blizzard say the majority of people werent even max level. If that is true than man I guess they just wasted so many resources for such a small minority of max level players. Geez blizz way to make people leveling pay for all those max level players...Leveling players demand relevant content :P

[Daffan]

Raids are important because it puts a carrot on a stick.

[purebalance]

The higher difficulties opened way before LFR, the people aspiring to raid properly were killing bosses on Normal+ way before the LFR crowd got theirs.
The people seeking challenge, don't settle for LFR. Simple as that. HFC Mythic has presented some if not the most challenging raid content to date.

Why do higher modes when you can simply do LFR. LFR removes the desire to do more from many.

If you've already done 2-3 other modes, it also gets stale more quickly. If it was possible to go right into mythic there would definitely be less burn out.

[Yizu]

You forgot t7 - One Difficulty 10/25

[purebalance]

Good old Ulduar hard mode, I just love those extra interactions with the boss like pushing the red button to activate hard mode. Now everything is done in menus. And yeah some people could screw it up, but thats part of the challenge. Though I really liked the ICC/Cata model that came afterwards aswell, just 2 difficulties which is more then enough.

Basically just like the way they stuck mythic to 20 man only was them being too lazy to balance 10 and 20 man, the reasoning behind not doing it the Ulduar way was laziness in that that they couldn't find ways to do it with every boss. Technically Naxx had it first but didn't offer more gear since Ulduar hard modes were the same parts as the Naxx meta for drakes much less Sartharian actually had the hard mode with better gear which was also in the meta.

[stomination]

You forgot t7 - One Difficulty 10/25

That made it 2 difficulties based on boss to boss.

[Sansnom]

There's this statement that Blizzard and LFR supporters say that really grinds my gears. It usually goes something like this:


"How can we justify making content that only a small fraction of our player base get's to see?"

When people say things like this, in my opinion, they are completely and entirely missing the point of why WoW raiding was so successful in the first place.

How do you define "raiding was so successful"? Because there were so many players in the game? How can something be successful if it had a low participation rate, according to Blizzard?

The purpose of far off, grand scale goals like these are to pull players along and keep them in the game, giving them a reason to continue playing. And no, the Mythic version of a raid they already saw on easy mode does not count.

That probably was the intention, but the figures suggest raiding was only a minority in terms of players entering.

As an example, imagine if Sunwell Plateau had 4 difficulty settings. Would it of felt as awesome as it was walking in there for the first time?
Would you have kept playing if you killed Kil'Jaeden in LFR?

Then don't? You do need to do LFR if your interest is in Mythic.

Regardless of wether you think it or not, humans are heavily swayed by physical environments, even in a game. Every time you relegate something to a menu, you are removing gameplay. Just look at garrisons. Not only that, but it can cause fairly substantial cognitive dissonance.

I like to read your research paper on this subject.

Look at these two statements:

"I cleared Black Temple" | "I killed Illidan"

"I cleared the Mythic/Heroic/LFR version of Black Temple" | "I killed the Mythic/Heroic/LFR version of Illidan"

Which one is more satisfying and concrete?

What is your point? You killed a boss. You are unhappy because others have done it at an easier difficulty level? You think professional sports stars cares about amateur sports competition?

Here is the point I'm trying to make: Just because people aren't physically in a raid, does not mean that that raid has no effect on how they play the game. So trying to add difficulty levels so people can "see the content" completely ignores the reason why the content is there in the first place.

When you see your guild buddy in full tier 6, that effects they way you play and how you feel.

It effects you. Not everyone cares about keeping up with the Jones. Or cares what you have and they do not.

When the game builds up to a big encounter with a lore-relevant boss in a tough raid, that effects how you play.
When the actual difficulty of a boss matches its lore prescribed power level, that effects how you feel when you wipe on it.

Then by definition, some of the bosses should be unkillingable or beatable.

People will keep playing your game if they know there is always content on the horizon that is new and challenging.

True. But your content is not theirs content.

The real problem lies in how Blizzard uses their statistics, but that's a whole other thread. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

The real problem is some players is unhappy how Blizzard is changing the game that nolonger focus on them.

Seriously, if you like raiding, raiding is still there. So more people are raiding, and raiding in easy mode, why do you care? It is not about raiding, it is about how you have kill some boss and so have others that you deemed unworthy because they are poorly skills. Well, they don't care how you feel. They don't feel killing some boss in a video is a big achievement.

[swaggers]

Remember single difficulty sequential raiding? Remember feeder guilds? Remember finally getting that tier on farm, your guild geared up only to have key players poached to a guild that's on the next tier, you're no longer on farm this tier, guild repeats this before imploding. You could either be loyal or see cutting edge content, not both.
Catch-up mechanics, that was a huge change starting with argent tournament/ICC not mentioned in the poll. Catch-up and multiple difficulties allowed people to raid with friends and see the latest content instead of choosing between the two.
Not an issue for me anymore though. My friends stopped playing expansions ago, I'm older, the games older, take away LFR and I'd stop altogether.

[Starry Sidekick]

How do you define "raiding was so successful"? Because there were so many players in the game? How can something be successful if it had a low participation rate, according to Blizzard?

That is why my post it titled the way it is. Even know people may not have participated in old raids, they existed in a world that was deeply integrated with them. Wether it was something to strive for, an option to pursue, or a feature that boosted you range of choice, raids effect everything.

That probably was the intention, but the figures suggest raiding was only a minority in terms of players entering.

Same thing that I said above. Just the prospect of getting to see the raid kept people playing.

Then don't? You do need to do LFR if your interest is in Mythic.

If you're smart, you can skip LFR. But then you pretty much have to do normal and heroic, and run LFR if you don't have time to do normals to get your ring to keep up with you're Mythic guild.

I like to read your research paper on this subject.

I love this kinda stuff. Ask my anything you want, sarcasm included.

What is your point? You killed a boss. You are unhappy because others have done it at an easier difficulty level? You think professional sports stars cares about amateur sports competition?

Its not about other people at all. It's about the feeling of actually conquering a raid as opposed to knocking out one difficulty of that raid. One feels better than the other.

It effects you. Not everyone cares about keeping up with the Jones. Or cares what you have and they do not.

It effects me and what I imagine is a sizable chunk of the player base. Possibly even some of the 7 million subs that have gone since Wrath.

Then by definition, some of the bosses should be unkillingable or beatable.

That's a bit extreme. I'm more concerned with bosses being tough, instead of being tough on a certain difficulty.

True. But your content is not theirs content.

Not really sure how to respond to this.

The real problem is some players is unhappy how Blizzard is changing the game that nolonger focus on them.

Making multiple difficulties of raids implies that they need to inflate that content because there is not enough of it. I am not a hardcore raider, or even a moderate one. I simply want the content that is there to be fully integrated into the game to an extent that bolsters the rest of it.

[Dormie]

BC. It's how a true progression game should be.

People exaggerate the poaching issue. Even with it, it pales in comparison to how shit the current catch up model is.

[MoanaLisa]

Raids are important because it puts a carrot on a stick.

People are smarter than horses or mules, especially after ten years of more or less the same incentives for a progression that is pointless once the next expansion drops.

And some prefer bacon. That whole line of thinking presumes that players are too stupid to see through it after this long. The fact is they can and that's one of the problems. It is being rejected wholesale by many.

[Wondercrab]

Everything in the OP is very true, except for the typical assumption (the one we always see in these threads) that everyone plays and enjoys games the same way. While it is very true that singular difficulties inspire a specific kind of player to push on toward lofty goals, this is an incredibly niche and subjective positive when balanced against the widespread objective negatives that such a system brings.

A single-difficulty system is great -- assuming you fall within the specific band of players it's aimed at. For everyone else, there are far better ways of doing things, and in a game with as vast and diverse a playerbase as WoW's, it's never good to try and make one size fit all.

[feellucky]

Then that's your choice. The participation rate of LFR, suggests others have different values. Why the hell should options be removed because YOU don't want it? Why should everyone conform to how you think the game should be played?

As a raider and lover of WoW, I see more people having a reason to play thus staying with and paying for the game as a positive. I don't have to touch the content I don't want to do.

You took what I said out of context. I know that is my choice in that instance, but as I explained further in my post that reasoning with LFR doesnt play out. It's not a rewarding ending for the game and doesn't take any time to complete. If LFR is your end game, you complete that the first day its released in a matter of hours and unsub. If that's all you're staying subbed for and that's your reasoning to have it is because people stayed subbed for that, it doesn't make sense. That's an extra level of what can't even really be called raiding so that people stay subbed for maybe an extra week or two waiting on the wings to be released. As I also said I wouldn't have an issue with it if there was any challenge at all, but the fact is there isn't and this by its very nature makes it not rewarding.

If people only have an hour or two a week, that's not enough time for LFR. If you're a dps you might spend that long or more just waiting in queue for LFR. It's not really logical to say that its a time issue. Normal is easy enough for anyone to complete and once you learn the fights can take less time than waiting in queues for LFR. LFR is the version where you never wipe and there's no challenge at all, and sometimes takes longer than normal with queues. What's the point of that?