No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Raelbo]

Power creep is what destroys immersion in any MMORPG.. Traveling mechanisms do not because they are not part of the combat system in most games.

My personal take on it is that "immersion" is too often assumed to be some sacred cow that must be preserved at all costs. I see immersion as something that, while awesome at first, turns stale after a while. It has a limited shelf life.

Why? Because the fun offered by a sense of immersion is the sense of mystery, exploration and discovery. Once you've explored the content and spent time immersed in it until you are familiar with it, the sense of discovery and exploration is finished. At this point most players quickly lose interest in immersing themselves in the environment. That is boring. Players want to get to the meaty bits of the game, and forcing us to jump through proverbial hoops in order to maintain that sense of immersion goes from being awesome and interesting to tedious and boring.

Thus the desire to maintain a sense of immersion is misguided - and this was the fault with WoD flying - the flawed thinking that assumed that forcing players to remain immersed in expended content was a good idea. It's an easy enough trap to fall into and it's not that the thinking is completely ridiculous, but they did miss a trick. Immersion in new content is great. And it makes sense that players miss that awesome feeling that comes from experiencing new content. But the belief that immersion can maintain that feeling is a fallacy. The feeling is going to fade because the players have experienced the content, and no amount of forcing them to remain immersed is going to get that feeling back. Worse yet, forcing the immersion ends up detracting from the experience because it becomes tedious.

While flying too soon certain can ruin the positive immersive experience with new content, it is also the saviour for when the immersive experience passes it's expiration date. I really hope that Blizzard introduce flying a lot sooner in Legion than they did in WoD, because, honestly, by the time it did arrive, I was sick of the immersion (at least for the areas not Tanaan).

[SirCowdog]

My personal take on it is that "immersion" is too often assumed to be some sacred cow that must be preserved at all costs. I see immersion as something that, while awesome at first, turns stale after a while. It has a limited shelf life.

Why? Because the fun offered by a sense of immersion is the sense of mystery, exploration and discovery. Once you've explored the content and spent time immersed in it until you are familiar with it, the sense of discovery and exploration is finished. At this point most players quickly lose interest in immersing themselves in the environment. That is boring. Players want to get to the meaty bits of the game, and forcing us to jump through proverbial hoops in order to maintain that sense of immersion goes from being awesome and interesting to tedious and boring.

Thus the desire to maintain a sense of immersion is misguided - and this was the fault with WoD flying - the flawed thinking that assumed that forcing players to remain immersed in expended content was a good idea. It's an easy enough trap to fall into and it's not that the thinking is completely ridiculous, but they did miss a trick. Immersion in new content is great. And it makes sense that players miss that awesome feeling that comes from experiencing new content. But the belief that immersion can maintain that feeling is a fallacy. The feeling is going to fade because the players have experienced the content, and no amount of forcing them to remain immersed is going to get that feeling back. Worse yet, forcing the immersion ends up detracting from the experience because it becomes tedious.

While flying too soon certain can ruin the positive immersive experience with new content, it is also the saviour for when the immersive experience passes it's expiration date. I really hope that Blizzard introduce flying a lot sooner in Legion than they did in WoD, because, honestly, by the time it did arrive, I was sick of the immersion (at least for the areas not Tanaan).

You make some excellent points. I would only add that it is a mistake to assume that immersion can ONLY be gained from the ground.

WoW is a world filled with magic and wonder. There are elements of steampunk, of high fantasy, and sci-fi. We have wizards along side religion, dragons, griffons, airplanes, helicarriers, teleportation and portals. And yet Blizzard seems to think the only way to promote immersive gameplay is to have people wandering around on the dirt?

There's so much missed opportunity here. And frankly, it's a mistake to try and force everyone to view all of that potential for wonder and fantasy from only a single, limited perspective.

[kolboti]

flying ruined the immersion of the game.....
Typing this because i have to post

[striderZA]

In addition to what CheeseSandwich said, there's the issue of Blizzard using Flight as a carrot to boost sales and subs, but withholding it indefinitely. Players aren't able to make an informed decision because there's not enough information, while Blizzard hints and hypes and then doesn't follow through. Holding flight hostage, as it were. It's dishonest.

That and the entire reasoning behind the delaying it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Instead of making the game better, they're making it worse by using flight this way, AND they're being dishonest about it. I would actually respect Blizzard more if they just came out and was honest about it. "Guys, you burn through the content too fast, so we have to do something to slow you down. Holding flight off until you complete pathfinder is one of the ways we do that."

I'd respect them, and I might still give Legion a shot to see if the rest of teh game made up for it. Right now I DON'T respect them and I'm not buying Legion or any of their other games. No Heart of the Swarm or Void, no hearthstone packs, no Heroes, no Overwatch.

I seriously doubt that anyone subscribes to the game with the hope of flying being introduced at some point, and continues to be pissed off at Blizzard until it is implemented. That's one of the most ridiculous things that I can imagine - hinting at flying to boost subs and sales? Please. If someone is genuinely set on not playing the game until there's flying, then don't play the game, nothing more than that. Also, why exactly are you portraying implementing flying through a pathfinder achievement - which you complete by literally doing things that you would be doing in any case - as dishonest / a time sink / whatever you want to call it.

[SirCowdog]

I seriously doubt that anyone subscribes to the game with the hope of flying being introduced at some point, and continues to be pissed off at Blizzard until it is implemented. That's one of the most ridiculous things that I can imagine - hinting at flying to boost subs and sales? Please. If someone is genuinely set on not playing the game until there's flying, then don't play the game, nothing more than that. Also, why exactly are you portraying implementing flying through a pathfinder achievement - which you complete by literally doing things that you would be doing in any case - as dishonest / a time sink / whatever you want to call it.

Because, just like in WoD, Blizzard is hinting that flight will be unlocked later, but doesn't actually say WHEN it will be unlocked. How many people are fooled by the achievement which you can work on right now? What happens when 7.1 rolls around and people expect flight to be available, but Blizzard pushes it back to 7.2, or 7.3, or later?

Also, pathfinder is NOT doing things which I would do anyway. I don't give two flying jackal asses about treasures, or sticking my nose into every single cave, nook, turnaround, or mountain when it requires dicking around on the ground with mazelike terrain and every trash mob within aggro distance. It's a pain in the ass to complete loremaster from the ground. And that doesn't even get into rep grinds that don't actually have jack or shit to do with flying.

It's a laundry list of requirements that I'm forced to do in order to get something that I want which doesn't actually have anything to do with the gameplay that I want. It's artificially extending the lifespan of content which I would otherwise ignore and not do. And even if it WAS something I wanted to do, I would be doing because I WANTED to do it, not because I was forced to.

At least with trash mobs in raids, I'm working towards the boss by doing the coordinated group-oriented gameplay I'm interested in. The rewards from the bosses(and maybe the trash if I'm lucky) help me on further boss and trash fights. When I finally unlock flight at some future unknown point, is there more content available for flying? No, not if WoD is any indication. It would be like withholding all the drops from all the raids you completed, and not actually giving them to you until the end of the expansion after you completed the final raid boss. You'd have all your gear, but nothing to use it on.

Yes I know that's not a PERFECT analogy, but I'm trying to get you guys to understand the flaws with Pathfinder in its current form.

[Maudib]

flying ruined the immersion of the game.....
Typing this because i have to post

Do you even understand what you responded... or parroted from other threads?


How is "immersion" ruined by flight?

Flight paths still exist?
City portals still exist?
Mage portals still exist?
Scrolls of teleport still exist?
Stealth, polymorph, vanish, Invis, polymorph, etc still exist?

All these things are "immersion breakers" aren't they?

[Mafic]

My personal take on it is that "immersion" is too often assumed to be some sacred cow that must be preserved at all costs. I see immersion as something that, while awesome at first, turns stale after a while. It has a limited shelf life.

Why? Because the fun offered by a sense of immersion is the sense of mystery, exploration and discovery. Once you've explored the content and spent time immersed in it until you are familiar with it, the sense of discovery and exploration is finished. At this point most players quickly lose interest in immersing themselves in the environment. That is boring. Players want to get to the meaty bits of the game, and forcing us to jump through proverbial hoops in order to maintain that sense of immersion goes from being awesome and interesting to tedious and boring.

Thus the desire to maintain a sense of immersion is misguided - and this was the fault with WoD flying - the flawed thinking that assumed that forcing players to remain immersed in expended content was a good idea. It's an easy enough trap to fall into and it's not that the thinking is completely ridiculous, but they did miss a trick. Immersion in new content is great. And it makes sense that players miss that awesome feeling that comes from experiencing new content. But the belief that immersion can maintain that feeling is a fallacy. The feeling is going to fade because the players have experienced the content, and no amount of forcing them to remain immersed is going to get that feeling back. Worse yet, forcing the immersion ends up detracting from the experience because it becomes tedious.

While flying too soon certain can ruin the positive immersive experience with new content, it is also the saviour for when the immersive experience passes it's expiration date. I really hope that Blizzard introduce flying a lot sooner in Legion than they did in WoD, because, honestly, by the time it did arrive, I was sick of the immersion (at least for the areas not Tanaan).

Immersion matters when talking about a combat system. If ilevels trivialize the world you scale it back but you don't remove the concept of gear upgrades. Instead of scaling back flying Blizz chooses instead to completely remove it.

Blizzard has become lazy lately and it shows.

[TyrianFC]

Do you even understand what you responded... or parroted from other threads?


How is "immersion" ruined by flight?

Flight paths still exist?
City portals still exist?
Mage portals still exist?
Scrolls of teleport still exist?
Stealth, polymorph, vanish, Invis, polymorph, etc still exist?

All these things are "immersion breakers" aren't they?

No, they aren't. Flying however, is.

[Mafic]

Because, just like in WoD, Blizzard is hinting that flight will be unlocked later, but doesn't actually say WHEN it will be unlocked. How many people are fooled by the achievement which you can work on right now? What happens when 7.1 rolls around and people expect flight to be available, but Blizzard pushes it back to 7.2, or 7.3, or later?

Also, pathfinder is NOT doing things which I would do anyway. I don't give two flying jackal asses about treasures, or sticking my nose into every single cave, nook, turnaround, or mountain when it requires dicking around on the ground with mazelike terrain and every trash mob within aggro distance. It's a pain in the ass to complete loremaster from the ground. And that doesn't even get into rep grinds that don't actually have jack or shit to do with flying.

It's a laundry list of requirements that I'm forced to do in order to get something that I want which doesn't actually have anything to do with the gameplay that I want. It's artificially extending the lifespan of content which I would otherwise ignore and not do. And even if it WAS something I wanted to do, I would be doing because I WANTED to do it, not because I was forced to.

At least with trash mobs in raids, I'm working towards the boss by doing the coordinated group-oriented gameplay I'm interested in. The rewards from the bosses(and maybe the trash if I'm lucky) help me on further boss and trash fights. When I finally unlock flight at some future unknown point, is there more content available for flying? No, not if WoD is any indication. It would be like withholding all the drops from all the raids you completed, and not actually giving them to you until the end of the expansion after you completed the final raid boss. You'd have all your gear, but nothing to use it on.

Yes I know that's not a PERFECT analogy, but I'm trying to get you guys to understand the flaws with Pathfinder in its current form.

Legion Patchfinder is going to blow up in their faces and then they will have the audacity to blame the players for not providing feedback. They will do the same thing with Order halls and RNG gear boxes for PVP.

[TyrianFC]

Legion Patchfinder is going to blow up in their faces and then they will have the audacity to blame the players for not providing feedback. They will do the same thing with Order halls and RNG gear boxes for PVP.

The bottom line is if the content is good and engaging on the ground, nobody will give a shit about whether they can or cant fly. Majority of WoD complaints about flying in the last few months are simply because people are bored shitless (which is thanks, in a large part, to the terrible effects Garrisons have had on the game).

If Legion ground content shit? We'll hear whinging for sure. If its good? Nobody outside of the 5 extremist pro-flying clowns that pervade threads like this will be saying a peep.

[Mafic]

Personally, I think it is about missed potential. We are missing out on another possible element to max level open world game play, (like floating islands and bases, fly warships like IC and DH), more training, racing and raising of flying mounts, (like Netherwing and cloud serpant races, and the potential customisation with the items there for players to make there own flying races), more vistas and mountain tops and exploration post ground play, more max level areas only reachable by flight, more stuff to get us out in the world and using flying like the warbringers, TLPD and Aeonaxx, more freedom to change your mind on a whim.

WotLK they fully realized the potential of three dimensions. Which is why they had a flying quest hub or tower with flying dragons fighting it out. Imagine if they were able to make aerial battles work in Wintergrasp how amazing it would have made WotLK? Yes WotLK could have been even more amazing expansion.

Instead they chose to settle for lazy gimmicks instead. Their heart isn't in it anymore and they are simply going through the motions of changing things just to collect a paycheck at this point.

[SirCowdog]

The bottom line is if the content is good and engaging on the ground, nobody will give a shit about whether they can or cant fly. Majority of WoD complaints about flying in the last few months are simply because people are bored shitless (which is thanks, in a large part, to the terrible effects Garrisons have had on the game).

If Legion ground content shit? We'll hear whinging for sure. If its good? Nobody outside of the 5 extremist pro-flying clowns that pervade threads like this will be saying a peep.

If the content is that good, then people with flying will gladly land and interact with it.

If the content is that good, why do you care what someone else is doing instead of having your own fun?

If the content is THAT good, then why is blizzard so afraid it will break if players are given a choice about it?

[TyrianFC]

WotLK they fully realized the potential of three dimensions. Which is why they had a flying quest hub or tower with flying dragons fighting it out. Imagine if they were able to make aerial battles work in Wintergrasp how amazing it would have made WotLK? Yes WotLK could have been even more amazing expansion.

Instead they chose to settle for lazy gimmicks instead. Their heart isn't in it anymore and they are simply going through the motions of changing things just to collect a paycheck at this point.

Aerial battles over wintergrasp is a stupid idea.

Aerial battles is like water combat. Nobody wants it.

[clevin]

The bottom line is if the content is good and engaging on the ground, nobody will give a shit about whether they can or cant fly. Majority of WoD complaints about flying in the last few months are simply because people are bored shitless (which is thanks, in a large part, to the terrible effects Garrisons have had on the game).

If Legion ground content shit? We'll hear whinging for sure. If its good? Nobody outside of the 5 extremist pro-flying clowns that pervade threads like this will be saying a peep.

If the content is good, players will want to do it ANYWAY - they won't have to be forced to do it because they can't fly. Fucking think before you type - you won't sound so stupid.

[TyrianFC]

I think you missed the point completely, and further embarrassed yourself in the process.

People only 'care' about flying because, at the moment, they're just bored with the game and have nothing else to complain about. I'm not going to reexplain this.

[DDM]

This is exactly what I have said multiple times already, but anti-flyers don't seem to notice this elephant in the room: Gear trivialises content much more than flying could ever do.

Gear trivialises content, thats true. And as everyone gets the shiny blingbling purple gear from boxes, dumbass lottery, missions where you have to click only once ... this is even more true. By doing nothing, you get stronger. So why the hell do you even play? I play, to improve my char and myself. And i don't have the time or the skill to get better gear, then i don't get it.
Back in vanilla (stopped playing after vanilla until mid MoP) you maybe had to ask a friend to get help (or got asked in my case, as i had some good gear).

BUT (to get back to topic) flying destroys the server community (as all the LFx tools and even more CRZ also do) which is in my opinion a BIG part of an MMORPG and also open world PVP. As a classic player i miss these parts of the game a lot, especially the community.
As a PvP Player (Rank 14) in vanilla, i knew a lot of players on my server on both sides and i would love to get this feeling back. But with CRZ and no flying, this will never happen, as you always stumble over totally unknown players IF you go out in the world once in a while and THEN be lucky to see someone else.

My wishes: Remove flying in the CURRENT expansion (i would be fine with allowing it in old ones to do some old stuff faster) and remove CRZ. I'm more or less ok with LFD (for leveling), but i would remove LFR but that is not part of this topic.

No, classic was not perfect, but not everything was bad. There are things that was way better than nowadays and not flying was definitly one of these better things.

[Dhrizzle]

If the content is good, players will want to do it ANYWAY - they won't have to be forced to do it because they can't fly. Fucking think before you type - you won't sound so stupid.

Players will gravitate towards the easiest way to achieve their goals evening it makes for a less satisfying experience. That's why Mythic raids don't have optional buffs/NPCs that guarantee success and Diablo 3 doesn't have an auction house.

[rda]

BUT (to get back to topic) flying destroys the server community (as all the LFx tools and even more CRZ also do) which is in my opinion a BIG part of an MMORPG and also open world PVP. As a classic player i miss these parts of the game a lot, especially the community.
As a PvP Player (Rank 14) in vanilla, i knew a lot of players on my server on both sides and i would love to get this feeling back. But with CRZ and no flying, this will never happen, as you always stumble over totally unknown players IF you go out in the world once in a while and THEN be lucky to see someone else.

OMG, OK, you had your expansion of no flying, did that produce any server communities? No. Ah, right, I know, that's because it was a bad expansion, let's try again in a new expansion hoping it will work this time. Yeah, wake me up when this happens.

- - - Updated - - -

Players will gravitate towards the easiest way to achieve their goals evening it makes for a less satisfying experience. That's why Mythic raids don't have optional buffs/NPCs that guarantee success and Diablo 3 doesn't have an auction house.

I am so tired of seeing this equivalent of "2+2=4, hence they should disable flying". Yes, players will gravitate bla bla. This is too general to be useful.

[Idoru]

Aerial battles over wintergrasp is a stupid idea.

Aerial battles is like water combat. Nobody wants it.

I'm so glad you are here to tell us clueless scrubs what we do and do not want.
How would we ever enjoy the game without people like you telling us how to do it properly...

[DDM]

OMG, OK, you had your expansion of no flying, did that produce any server communities? No. Ah, right, I know, that's because it was a bad expansion, let's try again in a new expansion hoping it will work this time. Yeah, wake me up when this happens.

As i said, CRZ and dumbass lottery has also to be removed to create server communities again. Also garrisons, loot by 2 clicks ...
There are way more reasons for the non existing communites but flying is ONE of them.