Legion: Elemental Specific

[miffy23]

What past? We are actively being ignored now, as in present. They dont answer to any math, sheets or tables on forums, twitter nor sent via beta reports. Not in text form, by actually implementing or even reacting to it via beta patches.

This happens now and also happened in WoD. After WoD just most Elemental who once voiced their their opinion stopped caring and rerolled, since Blizzard obviously doesnt care themselves.

They barely reply to any class feedback threads directly. I don't see how Elemental is being singled out there.

Statements such as "they obviously don't care" and similar comments being the reason for not bothering anymore seems about as mature and productive as the people that don't vote in elections because "politicians don't give a shit anyway".

Where is this flood of feedback you're talking about? I see one person linking to Bink's blog in the US thread, and a few scattered posts that share comparable concerns. Then a lot more posts from people that generally enjoy Ele, but want Stormkeeper changed/fixed.

So far I don't see any of this on twitter, on the forums. Ingame reports? Since when do they respond to those directly?

Apart from Bink's blog and a few that are voicing similar stuff, I don't see much going on. Feedback is rather divided on the matter. Again, that's not saying either side is right, but if you feel it's that broken then I don't see the push for this being addressed by them actually happening, just a bunch of jaded comments here on MMO-C. That's hardly conducive to what you want to achieve.

[Jotaux]

They barely reply to any class feedback threads directly. I don't see how Elemental is being singled out there.

Statements such as "they obviously don't care" and similar comments being the reason for not bothering anymore seems about as mature and productive as the people that don't vote in elections because "politicians don't give a shit anyway".

Where is this flood of feedback you're talking about? I see one person linking to Bink's blog in the US thread, and a few scattered posts that share comparable concerns. Then a lot more posts from people that generally enjoy Ele, but want Stormkeeper changed/fixed.

So far I don't see any of this on twitter, on the forums. Ingame reports? Since when do they respond to those directly?

Apart from Bink's blog and a few that are voicing similar stuff, I don't see much going on. Feedback is rather divided on the matter. Again, that's not saying either side is right, but if you feel it's that broken then I don't see the push for this being addressed by them actually happening, just a bunch of jaded comments here on MMO-C. That's hardly conducive to what you want to achieve.

When you've been a shaman long enough you just give up at some point. I think most of us reached that point with how Elemental went live in WoD after a ton of feedback outlining why the spec was not viable.

[miffy23]

When you've been a shaman long enough you just give up at some point. I think most of us reached that point with how Elemental went live in WoD after a ton of feedback outlining why the spec was not viable.

Again, that's the equivalent of just not voting anymore because one didn't like the last results.

[Deleted]

Um. Several people in this thread, in fact a whole lot, have already mentioned how they enjoy Elemental on Beta.
I wonder why you think it's "misinformation" when all he's doing is talking about how the spec feels and plays right now. That has little to do with endgame tuning - besides the fact that there's more than one opinion.

Indeed, there's a whole world of difference between something that has great game play and something that just has competitive output. Preach never tends to discuss the later as the numbers are something that can always be tuned/propped up. From that perspective Preach always gives excellent feedback and given there's been next to no number tuning so far, it seems utterly pointless to constantly complain about our current competitiveness in relation to other classes.
Is our class currently fun to play on beta? Yes it is.
Can our numbers be tuned to make us competitive? Yes they can.

[Jotaux]

Again, that's the equivalent of just not voting anymore because one didn't like the last results.

It was the culmination of events leading from Vanilla.

Its different from not voting because the results will be different. If no one is playing elemental shaman anymore, which looks like the likely outcome, blizzard will be forced to do something or just remove the spec.

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Is our class currently fun to play on beta? Yes it is.

So far elemental has been the most frustrating to play, I've been enjoying enhance though.

[miffy23]

It was the culmination of events leading from Vanilla.

Its different from not voting because the results will be different. If no one is playing elemental shaman anymore, which looks like the likely outcome, blizzard will be forced to do something or just remove the spec.

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So far elemental has been the most frustrating to play, I've been enjoying enhance though.

That's a horrible argument. Is that what Demo locks did in the past? Subtlety rogues? Because they remained some of the least played specs despite being very strong with good rotations.

Again, very similar to choosing not to vote "that'll show 'em".

[Prankish]

That's a horrible argument. Is that what Demo locks did in the past? Subtlety rogues? Because they remained some of the least played specs despite being very strong with good rotations.

Again, very similar to choosing not to vote "that'll show 'em".

I really wouldn't use Demo as an example. That spec was an ungodly mess this expansion. So much so that it was nerfed to the ground so that no one would play the spec because they didn't know how to balance it.

In regards to Subtlety and Demo, both specs only saw play once they were so ridiculously overpowered that it was hilarious. Subtlety because of the ring and Soul Cap and Demo because Blizz has no fucking clue what they are doing and accidentally made it overpowered. No good players were touching either spec before then, and Blizzard ultimately never found balance in either of them. Sub now has a large player pool but they are just reworking the core of the spec in legion so it doesn't matter and Demo is getting completely reworked too.

Blizzard has shown that they can't balance a spec on their own and Elemental is hemorrhaging good players like crazy so meaningful feedback is less and less likely.

[Jotaux]

Again, very similar to choosing not to vote "that'll show 'em".

I don't think you understand the choosing not to vote argument at all. If we are no longer elemental shamans we either voted with our wallets by leaving or voted by moving on to another class/spec.

[miffy23]

My point was that the number of players on that spec made literally no difference at all. Which is "leaving the spec in protest" is not going to make any difference. It's fine if you just don't enjoy it anymore, but as a "statement" it's empty and pointless, so don't tell yourself that it's achieving anything.

Besides, for every high tier player that does not enjoy the spec anymore, there are more low end casuals that love it. Just "leaving in a huff" and choosing not to interact "because it hasn't worked in the past"? That isn't going to solve anything either.

Just like with not voting, choosing not to participate at all is 100% not going to solve anything, whereas you have a chance if you at least try.

[Deleted]

My point was that the number of players on that spec made literally no difference at all. Which is "leaving the spec in protest" is not going to make any difference. It's fine if you just don't enjoy it anymore, but as a "statement" it's empty and pointless, so don't tell yourself that it's achieving anything.

Besides, for every high tier player that does not enjoy the spec anymore, there are more low end casuals that love it. Just "leaving in a huff" and choosing not to interact "because it hasn't worked in the past"? That isn't going to solve anything either.

Just like with not voting, choosing not to participate at all is 100% not going to solve anything, whereas you have a chance if you at least try.

You just pointed out one of the problems. The class are designed for casuals and not for high tier players.

I think many problems come from this because Blizzard for some reason is not encouraging high level gameplay. If they leave the spec just like it is now, casuals will be perfectly happy and Blizz too.
The thing is that I don't see how designing the gameplay for high level would be a problem for casuals. I think only some tweaks would be enough to make the spec viable.

I know this debate has been around for a while but I kind of think it's one of the core problems.

As of now our gameplay feels good imo, but we still don't have anything special to bring to the raid ( except if our dps is op but probably won't happen). Even the awesome Windrush totem can be used as a resto.
Would you rather pick an average dps with only 1 utility or a good utility with other utility than only the totem. I think it's not hard to determine what's better.

The sad thing is that if it stays like this ,we'll just end up benched or we'll need to reroll just because our spec is utter garbage.

I just want my spec to be competitive at high level

[Jotaux]

My point was that the number of players on that spec made literally no difference at all. Which is "leaving the spec in protest" is not going to make any difference. It's fine if you just don't enjoy it anymore, but as a "statement" it's empty and pointless, so don't tell yourself that it's achieving anything.

Besides, for every high tier player that does not enjoy the spec anymore, there are more low end casuals that love it. Just "leaving in a huff" and choosing not to interact "because it hasn't worked in the past"? That isn't going to solve anything either.

Just like with not voting, choosing not to participate at all is 100% not going to solve anything, whereas you have a chance if you at least try.

Except it has worked spectacularly. In the two specs you listed both were overpowered for a time.

[miffy23]

You just pointed out one of the problems. The class are designed for casuals and not for high tier players.

I think many problems come from this because Blizzard for some reason is not encouraging high level gameplay. If they leave the spec just like it is now, casuals will be perfectly happy and Blizz too.
The thing is that I don't see how designing the gameplay for high level would be a problem for casuals. I think only some tweaks would be enough to make the spec viable.

I know this debate has been around for a while but I kind of think it's one of the core problems.

As of now our gameplay feels good imo, but we still don't have anything special to bring to the raid ( except if our dps is op but probably won't happen). Even the awesome Windrush totem can be used as a resto.
Would you rather pick an average dps with only 1 utility or a good utility with other utility than only the totem. I think it's not hard to determine what's better.

The sad thing is that if it stays like this ,we'll just end up benched or we'll need to reroll just because our spec is utter garbage.

I just want my spec to be competitive at high level

I don't think they are designed "for casuals" at all. In fact, Elemental's basic toolkit hasn't changed very much in years and years. If anything, it has gotten more complex. Just because the basic premise is simple and accessible does not mean it is "casualized". The same can be said for almost every spec in Legion - they look a bit simpler on the surface, but there is certainly depth to it, and in some cases, pretty high skill caps in high end play. Not every spec is currently pulling that off, of course, and not each one is supposed to, I would wager.

As far as Elemental goes, if these concerns hold water for endgame progression, then I would think it even more pressing that those concerned use every method at their disposal to make it known to the devs. Once more, I don't really think it's fair to give up before anything's happened, 3 months before live, and write everything off as done and dusted. While drastic mechanics changes are unlikely to occur in this timeframe, those aren't necessary. As many have stated, including those critical of endgame viability, the basic premise and playstyle is fun and enjoyable. What remains is therefore tuning and dressing to iron out where the spec seems to fall short in comparison.

Bink mentioned the lack of damage mitigation through artifact talents, compared to most other ranged specs. This is easily remedied, for example.
Stormkeeper can also be tweaked and adjusted without too much effort.

Just keep bringing it up, I don't see much of this in the channels that actually matter. Devs surely read MMO-C from time to time, but...yeah.

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Except it has worked spectacularly. In the two specs you listed both were overpowered for a time.

They were tuned after years and years of the spec being on the low end of player participation. Elemental is not a particularly popular spec, either, and hasn't been for a long time. And lo and behold, numbers did not explode exponentially after the op buffs either.

If you think it was due to players leaving in a huff, then I think you're very wrong.

[Jotaux]

They were tuned after years and years of the spec being on the low end of player participation. Elemental is not a particularly popular spec, either, and hasn't been for a long time. And lo and behold, numbers did not explode exponentially after the op buffs either.

If you think it was due to players leaving in a huff, then I think you're very wrong.

Well I think you are wrong and the only two examples you gave were not even supportive of your argument.

[miffy23]

Well I think you are wrong and the only two examples you gave were not even supportive of your argument.

How are they not? Numbers were low for many years before, they got reworks, numbers stayed low. Player participation does not have much to do with how well the specs turn out. There was no "mass exodus" from either of the mentioned specs. They were never particularly strongly represented to begin with.

I just don't think that "voting by not playing" does anything at all, given how many more people will play a spec if it is fun on a casual level.

[Jotaux]

I just don't think that "voting by not playing" does anything at all, given how many more people will play a spec if it is fun on a casual level.

Do you think its pointless to vote in elections since every vote you cast, theres millions of others voting differently?

[miffy23]

Do you think its pointless to vote in elections since every vote you cast, theres millions of others voting differently?

Ok, go up and reread my posts. Then come back and tell me what analogy I made.

You're chosing NOT to vote. Ergo you're not making any difference at all either way.

[Jotaux]

Ok, go up and reread my posts. Then come back and tell me what analogy I made.

You're chosing NOT to vote. Ergo you're not making any difference at all either way.

We are choosing to vote, by leaving the spec behind or with money by not playing.

[Deleted]

I was searching for a fitting .gif for this discussion, but I couldnt find one.

[wordup]

Indeed, there's a whole world of difference between something that has great game play and something that just has competitive output. Preach never tends to discuss the later as the numbers are something that can always be tuned/propped up. From that perspective Preach always gives excellent feedback and given there's been next to no number tuning so far, it seems utterly pointless to constantly complain about our current competitiveness in relation to other classes.
Is our class currently fun to play on beta? Yes it is.
Can our numbers be tuned to make us competitive? Yes they can.

I disagree. Looking at the face value (which is what the person you referenced did) may make things look fun, but tuning aside when inherent issues in design that will skew performance and create significant scaling (buzzword) issues down the line that are not obvious on the surface but when you look under the hood are very clearly there, is what feedback is meant to be. If you want to know if the spec fits your fantasy and is a happy romp sure, but feedback on a serious level needs to take into account the mechanical workings of a spec that may not be clear but are still very serious. These are the same issues that start at Beta and fester until you get situations like HFC where they become serious. Relying on the "tuning isn't here yet" thing isn't an excuse to just talk about how it "feels" in a dungeon when things like that exist.

[gambit998]

I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes not trying to fix the problems and jumping ship isnt the answer, but it has come to the point of this:

Do i enjoy my spec - Yes/No
What do i want to do with said spec since my time and money (Game time and real money) will be used if this is my main - Raid-PVP-Casual screwing around
Can my spec preform in chosen environment? - Yes/No
Should i reroll to a class or spec that actually is viable in said gameplay choice? - Yes/No

Somthing i have noticed is the Elemental shaman Player base is rather small and with the stuff that blizzard is over looking is making it even smaller, I am not a doomsayer but it looks like the amount of players for said spec bring feedback quicker. then again Windwalkers playerbase is said to be smaller than Elemental and they are getting some game changing changes. So i dont know anymore.

Think it is time we info bombed blizzard like all of us as this seems to be: Yes Elemental shamans have a voice but blizzard is deaf to small numbers.

MAKE A NOISE! MAKE A NOISE THAT CANNOT BE IGNORED