Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Thimagryn]

Question then - as someone who is pro-legacy and (seemingly) supports Mark Kern's stance, how many times have you participated in his twitter polls? If not, is it because you do not give a damn about what the poll is about?

These are part of my overwhelming criticism of Kern and having all his Legacy-related material be hosted through his personal twitter rather than an official hub where we could all be discussing this. While we sit and talk here on MMO-C about Legacy and Kern, all the relevant stuff is happening elsewhere without us knowing about it; in between his anime waifu posts and SJW bashing.

[Eliseus]

I don't know what this wall of no is, nor do I really care. Like I said, if the people using that argument are absent from the conversation, there's no point in bringing it up with a discussion with people who aren't. Blame these anti-legacy people all you want, tbh aside from a couple people, I don't even know who or where these anti-legacy people who are denying things are.

You and Vin seem to be referring to a group of people that aren't even participating in the discussion right now.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm sorry if it seems that why. I'm trying to point out though how Kyanion is claiming that MMO-C polls are irrrelevant while people who are against them were using them no problem when it came to being against the idea. It is a part of a discussion since it pertains specifically to the matter at hand and was brought up a few times in this thread.

[Vineri]

Question then - as someone who is pro-legacy and (seemingly) supports Mark Kern's stance, how many times have you participated in his twitter polls? If not, is it because you do not give a damn about what the poll is about?

These are part of my overwhelming criticism of Kern and having all his Legacy-related material be hosted through his personal twitter rather than an official hub where we could all be discussing this. While we sit and talk here on MMO-C about Legacy and Kern, all the relevant stuff is happening elsewhere without us knowing about it; in between his anime waifu posts and SJW bashing.

I am not a member of social media, nor do I have a Twitter account. I have Kern's twitter bookmarked though, which I read from time to time.

[Gadzooks]

I'm actually looking forward to the meetings tomorrow. Then I do something stupid like check Mark's Twitter for some info.

https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/735635325855272961

Ugh. I really don't like his attitude... I really wish this wasn't the man representing the Legacy Servers...

The guy responding to him is a bigger dick. Since WHEN is this meeting a "negotiation"? Even Kern hasn't described this meeting as such.

This is what I find hilarious, a small group of people have decided that the fate of legacy servers rests on this meeting, and the one with Nost, when nobody, neither party involved in the meetings have stated that they're that important.

Which is why the tantrum when nothing happens as a result will be that much more entertaining - they built up the expectations all on their own.

I suspect Kern likes the added attention, so he'll probably tease what was discussed in the meeting for a couple of weeks, drive up his Twitter follows and retweets, even with a small group of legacy crusaders sniveling and crying at him for failing what he never promised to do in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

This also depends on different factors in giving a Legacy server which I know has been talked to death. According the that Polygon article I linked a ways back, is is much cheaper to not only port a game in something like HD graphics to a new system and less risky than to make an entirely new game. I think the expectations for a Legacy server shouldn't be that of a new game, or an expansion. It's a different ball park imo, but yes, if we compare it to those numbers it really is just a drop in the vast ocean, though it is still profit.

That being said, I feel there is potential for HUGE PR releasing a Legacy server. Some people say Blizzard admitting they are wrong as a weakness, so they won't do it. I feel it can be viewed as a strength. For example, they can use it to just try and boost the moral of their current fans and hopefully random spectators to their games. No idea if this would really work, just thinking that a Legacy server could have potential to benefit Blizzard overall in random speculation world?

I still wonder though with the proper advertising, if done at all, could garnish huge interest. Would be interesting to see expectations exceeded.

And the goalposts are moved again. Now it's "porting the game", and it's suddenly magically easy - while conveniently forgetting that the issue is the servers, not the game itself, and that there literally is not a version of the vanilla servers that works with modern hardware that they use now. New servers will have to be developed from bits and pieces of the old code *at best* - but they'll have to be built.

And, that article on Polygon, which I read as well, assumes that the code Blizzard runs will be compatible with the new tools being developed (which is irrelevant, because those tools won't work with proprietary code on Blizzard's servers. Not all code is equal, even non-coders can grasp that concept.)

The goalposts move so much in this thread, they have wheels bolted to them, to make it easier to move them, lol.

[Vineri]

The guy responding to him is a bigger dick. Since WHEN is this meeting a "negotiation"? Even Kern hasn't described this meeting as such.

This is what I find hilarious, a small group of people have decided that the fate of legacy servers rests on this meeting, and the one with Nost, when nobody, neither party involved in the meetings have stated that they're that important.

Which is why the tantrum when nothing happens as a result will be that much more entertaining - they built up the expectations all on their own.

I suspect Kern likes the added attention, so he'll probably tease what was discussed in the meeting for a couple of weeks, drive up his Twitter follows and retweets, even with a small group of legacy crusaders sniveling and crying at him for failing what he never promised to do in the first place.

I think you are so excited that you are rambling incoherently again!

And the rest, lol. One rant fails, pick another to babble negatively about

I think Kern is dedicated in his mission. I find it impressive that he has worked up the whole community. Fans and haters are both going nuts over what he is doing

[Gadzooks]

I think you are so excited that you are rambling incoherently again!

And the rest, lol. One rant fails, pick another to babble negatively about

I think Kern is dedicated in his mission. I find it impressive that he has worked up the whole community. Fans and haters are both going nuts over what he is doing

"Excited", "rambling incoherently". We get it - if you don't like something or disagree, instead of discussing it, or even arguing, you just act like a child, and call people names.

You REEK of fedora.

[Vineri]

I think you are so excited that you are rambling incoherently again!

And the rest, lol. One rant fails, pick another to babble negatively about

I think Kern is dedicated in his mission. I find it impressive that he has worked up the whole community. Fans and haters are both going nuts over what he is doing

"Excited", "rambling incoherently". We get it - if you don't like something or disagree, instead of discussing it, or even arguing, you just act like a child, and call people names.

You REEK of fedora.

Perhaps you would explain to the community where I call people names?

I'll exclude the other part, since readers see that in yourself anyways.

I included both posts for your convenience.

[Uurdz]

If those wishing to conduct polls ever believed you, then statistical data would NEVER get accomplished or collected. Everyone would be arms up running in circles wondering what to do.

The voters come from ALL over. Margin of Error applies. What better sample set than people who actually give a damn what the poll is about, or understand what it is about? If you are talking another venue, you are off your rocker.

Uh, I said what was wrong with using mmo-champion poll data as representitive of the general population. It would be like running a poll on women's rights on pornhub. You have a specific segment of the population who come to mmo-champion and no evidence to support the idea that it's a representitive sample.

It has also not undergone any statistical analysis tools.

Do you know anything about statistics? Because it sounds like you don't. I'm no expert, but I've studied it at undergrad level @ Uni so I understand a few of the fallacies of data collection (of which this one would be sampling bias)

[Vineri]

Uh, I said what was wrong with using mmo-champion poll data as representitive of the general population. It would be like running a poll on women's rights on pornhub. You have a specific segment of the population who come to mmo-champion and no evidence to support the idea that it's a representitive sample.

It has also not undergone any statistical analysis tools.

Do you know anything about statistics? Because it sounds like you don't. I'm no expert, but I've studied it at undergrad level @ Uni so I understand a few of the fallacies of data collection (of which this one would be sampling bias)

Who is this specific segment of the population?

This continues to be generally a pro-WoW website. Threads and topics constantly come and go, very few dealing with Legacy. Most about current events, upcoming expansions, and such. The general forum is even a small piece of a larger WoW discussion base. If anything, the sampling is skewed against Legacy folks. Small potatoes, with some supporters here and there. Everyone voted.

You can really use sampling bias to justify any collection data, if you don't like the results. At some point though, observers take a step back. If everyone is here to support Legacy, where are they? In the other threads discussing WoW strats and upcoming changes? Maybe it was internal members after all. I took statistics, along with philosophy. Common sense is a powerful ally.

Everyone voted - there is no exclusive, specific segment of the population that voted above anyone else. Everyone voted, or had a chance to.

[Uurdz]

Who is this specific segment of the population?

This continues to be generally a pro-WoW website. Threads and topics constantly come and go, very few dealing with Legacy. Most about current events, upcoming expansions, and such. The general forum is even a small piece of a larger WoW discussion base. If anything, the sampling is skewed against Legacy folks. Small potatoes, with some supporters here and there. Everyone voted.

You can really use sampling bias to justify any collection data, if you don't like the results. At some point though, observers take a step back. If everyone is here to support Legacy, where are they? In the other threads discussing WoW strats and upcoming changes? Maybe it was internal members after all. I took statistics, along with philosophy. Common sense is a powerful ally.

Everyone voted - there is no exclusive, specific segment of the population that voted above anyone else. Everyone voted, or had a chance to.

Ok let me spell this out for you clearly.

In statistics, sampling bias is a bias in which a sample is collected in such a way that some members of the intended population are less likely to be included than others.

You total population is the ~100million players who have played World of Warcraft.
Do you have any idea of the demographics of said players? Their age, gender, region distribution?
Do you understand who of them played for 1 month, or played for 10 years?

What was the call to action to vote? Was everyone approached? Was there a general knowledge of this vote? Did people know it was going to be used as factual representations? Was there any question bias in the poll? Did people clearly understand the question and answer options of the poll?

Have you completed data quality assessments and do you have a margin of error?

You are making a presumption that those who frequent MMO-Champion are representative of the entire population. This won't even be close to true.
This is sampling bias. Let me repeat, you have no evidence to support the idea that it's a representative sample.

You actually CANT use sampling bias to dismiss other survey results where evidence has been show how your sample size was representative. Say for example if Blizzard sent an email out, asking the question, to all email addresses that have held a WoW account EVER.

You just listed statistics as one of your classes - yet you refuse to accept polling on a site like MMO-Champion is not going to be statistically reliable because of the sampling bias and then seek to state that everyone could have voted and that they would have BUT there is very little motivation for people not interested in the topic to respond.

Good luck directly quoting Wiki in your 101 Essays you twit.

[Jeniwyn]

I would have to agree that the polls are pointless.

The selection bias of mmo-c forum readers vs. wow subscribers is bad enough in normal mmo-c polls, mmo-c forum readers vs. all players potentially interested in legacy is absolutely laughable.

It strikes me a bit like standing on Wall Street during the occupy period and polling the bankers and protesters on banking regulation and then use that to make inferences on what Americans think on the subject.

[Kyanion]

Everyone voted - there is no exclusive, specific segment of the population that voted above anyone else. Everyone voted, or had a chance to.

Oh yeah sure considering the amount of monthly unique visits to this site each month EVERYONE voted...unless they didn't go to the WoW section of the forums and lived in Offtopic and the Video Game sections...or they just don't vote on polls...or they weren't around when it happened...or you know whatever reasons you need after you see how few people voted on the damn thing in the first place. And that is even before Uurdz's points on the matter.

[Deleted]

Money is. Which one costs more to make? One server or several? Everyone wants a different thing and everyone expects blizz to cater to THEM and not the other guy. That's not a realistic nor reasonable demand.

I have absolutely no issue with blizzard charging people to play on vanilla servers. It's called business, and much more healthy than earning money from virtual goods (like skin or mounts).

Also, with the amount of empty or very low population realms of retail wow, I have no doubt blizzard could re-allocate some ressources.

[Relapses]

I would have to agree that the polls are pointless.

The selection bias of mmo-c forum readers vs. wow subscribers is bad enough in normal mmo-c polls, mmo-c forum readers vs. all players potentially interested in legacy is absolutely laughable.

It strikes me a bit like standing on Wall Street during the occupy period and polling the bankers and protesters on banking regulation and then use that to make inferences on what Americans think on the subject.

Or asking people at a Trump rally if they'd vote for Trump.

[Dormie]

Polls aren't completely reliable but dismissing them entirely would just be stupid.

[Deleted]

Good luck Mark Kern and Nostalrius team with the meeting! Just want to show my support and I hope it all goes well!
Vanilla WoW! Fuck yes! I want it!

[Deleted]

Good luck Mark Kern and Nostalrius team with the meeting! Just want to show my support and I hope it all goes well!
Vanilla WoW! Fuck yes! I want it!

Yeah I hope this changes their mind and they decide to make a legacy version of the game the petition for it got a lot of support because of him and blizzard responded to his video pretty much the same day the fact that they're going to meet and also wanna keep it disclosed is probably very important.

[Albimoo]

Yeah I hope this changes their mind and they decide to make a legacy version of the game the petition for it got a lot of support because of him and blizzard responded to his video pretty much the same day the fact that they're going to meet and also wanna keep it disclosed is probably very important.

It most certainly will not.

[Vash The Stampede]

We're a good 1,355 pages into this. How many more pages will it take for people to realize that the casualization of WoW is what caused this. Modern WoW is too casual and has forced people to go back to a time where skill and not time meant something. Where pulling more than one world mob could mean death, and that raiding was difficult from the start. Where every dungeon pull required crowd control, not a tank that can AOE spam for threat. Where you had to wait for 3 sunders, and not just go balls to the wall on a boss. Where a fire spell couldn't hurt a boss made of fire, and required you to spec into Frost or Arcane.

Time to admit you screwed up casuals. Turns out, the gaming world doesn't revolve around you. Blizzard employee's, pay attention, cause you're the ones who should listen to my advice. The only reason why we want Vanilla WoW is because modern WoW sucks. It's too casual. Fit it. I'd tell you what to do but I already have many times and you ain't paying me. I'll be back when this thread reaches 2000 pages.

[Thimagryn]

Polls aren't completely reliable but dismissing them entirely would just be stupid.

If someone were to use (MMO-C or Kern's Twitter) polls as fuel in an argument for or against Legacy servers, then I would dismiss it for being unreliable. Polls made here (or on Kern's twitter) are a collection of opinions sampled from a small group of enthusiasts. They're not representative of the community that Legacy servers would actually affect as a whole.