[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Ustabil]

@Unanilnomen You say you dont have the game and therefore cant test it. A lot of what people say is just false. With all the missinformation in these legion threads im quite sure 50% who makes posts are people who havent tested it themself.

No, momentum build is not the best build for ST. Dont even know if its valid for AoE atm. Might be something fun to play around with, but in the end a 4sec buff u can get about every 7-10s-ish where most of the debuff ends up wasted in the animations will not win over someone who can just stand still and attack the boss 100%.

Fel barrage is sadly the worst looking spell the Demon Hunter have. It looks lame and feels lame to use. Im sorry to have to tell you this.


Felblade vs bloodlet is the only choices u wanna make, but Felblade will only work for ST and does less dmg than Bloodlet does ST (wich also hits 2 more targets). Sure Felblade gives fury but most of the time you wont rly need the fury, as we stack crit and therefore get our fury back. This again, makes the current DH very boring cause if feels like your spamming 1 skill on your target.

Blade Dance still does a lot of AoE, it just will never be used for ST. And AoE pulls in dungeons is pure pain as DH atm. If u dont have fury of illidari or Eyebeam up. you throw our Blade Dance and Glaive toss, then u forced to do Single target for 8 sec untill you can get your CD's back.

You might not belive me, but from all my testing world bosses, dungeons (normal,hc,mythic) i think ive only seen 2 other DH doing better than me, and they all used the same build as me. Every other DH with some sort of "someone told me this was better" build tends to do very poorly(and i mean very, they tend to not even use skada and think they are doing dmg when infact they stand for less than 10% of total dmg done).

After playing around with the new build the whole day. i have to say. It feels so boring now. It hasnt changed to much, but it just feels so bland and annoying to play now. Knowing that it was so much smoother. sure it was borderline OP, but numbers can be tuned. But as stated before. FUN is OP. Nerf FUN

[Schlosh]

@Unanilnomen You say you dont have the game and therefore cant test it. A lot of what people say is just false. With all the missinformation in these legion threads im quite sure 50% who makes posts are people who havent tested it themself.

No, momentum build is not the best build for ST. Dont even know if its valid for AoE atm. Might be something fun to play around with, but in the end a 4sec buff u can get about every 7-10s-ish where most of the debuff ends up wasted in the animations will not win over someone who can just stand still and attack the boss 100%.

Fel barrage is sadly the worst looking spell the Demon Hunter have. It looks lame and feels lame to use. Im sorry to have to tell you this.


Felblade vs bloodlet is the only choices u wanna make, but Felblade will only work for ST and does less dmg than Bloodlet does ST (wich also hits 2 more targets). Sure Felblade gives fury but most of the time you wont rly need the fury, as we stack crit and therefore get our fury back. This again, makes the current DH very boring cause if feels like your spamming 1 skill on your target.

Blade Dance still does a lot of AoE, it just will never be used for ST. And AoE pulls in dungeons is pure pain as DH atm. If u dont have fury of illidari or Eyebeam up. you throw our Blade Dance and Glaive toss, then u forced to do Single target for 8 sec untill you can get your CD's back.

You might not belive me, but from all my testing world bosses, dungeons (normal,hc,mythic) i think ive only seen 2 other DH doing better than me, and they all used the same build as me. Every other DH with some sort of "someone told me this was better" build tends to do very poorly(and i mean very, they tend to not even use skada and think they are doing dmg when infact they stand for less than 10% of total dmg done).

After playing around with the new build the whole day. i have to say. It feels so boring now. It hasnt changed to much, but it just feels so bland and annoying to play now. Knowing that it was so much smoother. sure it was borderline OP, but numbers can be tuned. But as stated before. FUN is OP. Nerf FUN

I can tell you right now from playing DH on beta extensively Prepared+Felblade+Momentum+Demonic is the highest DPS spec possible. For both single target and probably aoe as well. Nothing else comes close. And that's even if you do a shit job at keeping the momentum buff up.

[Ustabil]

@Schlosh Thats what all the DH's going that have said to me. Yet every time i invite them to do a dungeon with me i always do almost double their dmg.

I can start doing the math showing you its not if you want to. Or better add me on Btag and illt ake you in a dungeon and show you myself.

[Schlosh]

@Schlosh Thats what all the DH's going that have said to me. Yet every time i invite them to do a dungeon with me i always do almost double their dmg.

I can start doing the math showing you its not if you want to. Or better add me on Btag and illt ake you in a dungeon and show you myself.

In order to math it, you'd have to say that using first blood instead of felblade nets more ST damage. It won't because you should be using prepared for the fury gen and then felblade back in. Super easy to do and definitely equals more damage than running first blood. So prepared + felblade definitively better. No doubt there. Okay, so what's next, momentum, this one's easy, getting a 20% dps buff everytime I VR then felblade back in is going to net me more damage than using fel eruption every 35 seconds. And on top of that, I can even do some easier things like VR out to eyebeam to fel rush back in and I'm getting a 20% buffed eye beam + a 20% buffed demonic annihilation uptime where I won't run out of fury because of Prepared. And then imagine on top of that using fel rush's to keep momentum up, and you're looking at some crazy high momentum uptime. You're post where you say you get momentum every 7-10ish seconds is WAYYYYY off the mark. The only options I currently see in the DH talent tree are the level 99 talents, choosing between FM, CC, and BF. Everything else is pretty cookie cutter at the moment.

[Ustabil]

Well i will make it very simple. If you use Nemesis and Demon Reborn you have 2 min of 15% constant dmg increase. On top of that you have a harder hitting eye beam, a harder hitting glaive toss, or first blood, or you can go Felblade if you feel you have fury issues. Ultimately you can sit on the boss 24/7 spamming Annihilation/Chaos Strike. Cause face it, thats where most of our dmg is.

Even tho momentum build is giving you a 20% dmg increase, there is no way you can have that kind of uptime. Heck, You can go Nemesis, Demon Reborn and Chaos Blades and get even more Burst. And there is no way. No way Momentum build can eve get close to compete with that in dungeons. And in raids there is just to many downsides to dashing around.

Also you say you get a 20% stronger eye beam, but your not taking Blinded Fury wich adds 17% extra dmg to the eye beam. So basicly you are doing a 3% stronger eyebeam.

Also unless your stacking haste, your GCD will be around 1.5. So in this 4 sec time you can only get in 2 spells (VR/FR - 1.5 - First Spell - 1.5 - Second Spell - 0.5 buff is gonne)

And we also have to take into account that the VR animation currently not possible to cancel wihtout using felrush, wich will waste 4 potensial seconds of buff.

[Fortytude]

Has anyone put together a build for a more traditional, stationary style of play that a Mythic raider may need for those control fights? This is what I am thinking.

99: Blind Fury for single boss, Chaos Cleave for +1
102: Demon Blades (20 ppm guaranteed for fairly smooth fury gen)
104:Soul Rending
106:Fel Eruption (replaces Demon's bite as an additional rotational ability)
108: Master of the Glaive could work well with Bloodlet in keeping a rolling dot on the target
110:Fel Barrage would fill the hole in the rotation left by Demon Blade's replacement of Demon's Bite

Fel Rush and VR are still there for mobility, but do not play a huge roll in creating competitive dps. I like Rolling Glaive dots to keep damage on boss when you can't be in range. I am actually going to try this build on dummies when I get home. Thoughts?

[Ustabil]

First off i dont think Demon Blades will be used at all and most likely will be scrapped before live. It may be a stupid way of making haste work. But with how the other talents do so well with crit/mastery and the artifact themself increase Critdmg i doubt it will work. And if using Demons Blade, Felblade is also a must as 102 talent. And Fel barrage recharge is to slow to fill anything. You wanna use it at 5 stacks, and to get to 5 stacks and the recharge is 30s per stack(obv a little faster than 2.5 min to get 5 stacks, but it seem to avg between 1-2min getting 5 stacks. Master of the Glaive also just adds 1 charge to your glaive toss. Aka you start wtih 2, but the recharge time is still 10s. Aka you only get 1 extra glaive toss for the whole fight, mostly there for leveling or pvp.

99:Blind Fury most likely used on pure ST or on fights where theres AoE/adds that spawns during the fight. Chaos Cleave used if there is prolonged cleave.
100: Maybe Prepared if u take Felblade as 102, most likely for low crit builds that has more fury issues.
102: Depens rly, Pure ST Felblade might come out on top if it means it would let you spam more Chaos Strike/Annihilations than without. If there are adds tho, or cleave, im quite sure Bloodlet would be better.
104: Soul Rending goes well wtih Demonic at 110
106: Nemesis if pure ST.
108: Demon Reborn - to reset Nemesis so you can have 3 Nemesis between every meta.
110: Demonic - Adds a little dmg outside of meta. , Chaos Blade might end up beeing the better choices.

Again its hard to know, cause the numbers aint tuned yet, and we havent gotten to try out much raiding. The alpha raiding test was so long ago.

[nox597]

Has anyone put together a build for a more traditional, stationary style of play that a Mythic raider may need for those control fights? This is what I am thinking.

99: Blind Fury for single boss, Chaos Cleave for +1
100: Demon Blades (20 ppm guaranteed for fairly smooth fury gen)
102: Bloodlet for bleed damage
104:Soul Rending
106:Fel Eruption (replaces Demon's bite as an additional rotational ability)
108: Master of the Glaive could work well with Bloodlet in keeping a rolling dot on the target
110:Fel Barrage would fill the hole in the rotation left by Demon Blade's replacement of Demon's Bite

Fel Rush and VR are still there for mobility, but do not play a huge roll in creating competitive dps. I like Rolling Glaive dots to keep damage on boss when you can't be in range. I am actually going to try this build on dummies when I get home. Thoughts?

Fixed your build slightly... It was missing a talent tier

[Vanyali]

@Schlosh Thats what all the DH's going that have said to me. Yet every time i invite them to do a dungeon with me i always do almost double their dmg.

I can start doing the math showing you its not if you want to. Or better add me on Btag and illt ake you in a dungeon and show you myself.

Prepared + Felblade + Momentum + Demonic IS the highest ST.

You just have to know how to play it, which most DH can't do for shit.

DBlades is actually really good with crit, NOT haste, and requires a swing timer as well.

[Fortytude]

Thanks man, had this copy and pasted while at work and didn't proof read

[Ustabil]

How anyone think that a 4 sec 20% buff that you can apply every 7s-ish is better than a flat 15% dmg increase use for 2min in a row then 1 min later you can use it again for 2 min in a row.

You Nemesis -> Go into Meta -> nemesis again when the buff drops -> have 1 min with no buff -> Use nemeis again -> Meta and repeat. This ofc if u have the 4min meta Trait.


And you can pick this while picking the stronger choices for Eyebeam and whatever.

[Vanyali]

Because you can time momentum with your burst, where nemesis will not.

Given that you can average ~50% uptime with Momentum, and you can only have 50% of Nemesis in 2 minutes ever, that's a 10% damage increase for momentum vs. a 7.5% for Nemesis. Nemesis, in addition, is "wasted" on building fury and cannot be used for the second demonic, where proper momentum will ALWAYS be used for finishers and demonic windows.

[Ustabil]

What the fuck are you on about. Nemesis is an 2 min cd, with 1 min buff. Demon Reborn turns it into a 2min buff with 1 min CD in between. Givng u at worst 66% uptime if the fights end at its worst point. How many Dungeon bosses live longer that 2 mins anyway. And if u cant time your burst in the 2 min period you might just need to play another game cause it dont get easier.

Pluss we can then also use the Eye beam talent that adds 17% dmg to Eye beam and it does 15% dmg on top of that. We will have our whole meta +15% and we get to stay on the boss 24/7 having nodowntime.

[Vanyali]

You're acting like all fights are 2 minutes long, which is certainly not the case. That's why BiS specs aren't build around dungeon bosses.

That said, with Momentum + Demonic I get 40 straight seconds of Meta, with most of those 40 seconds buffed 20%.

You can also use the EYe Beam talent with Prepared + Momentum + Demonic, no idea why you have any idea that you cannot.

[Ustabil]

But every GCD used in Meta form not used on Annihilation is a huge dps loss. For me with my gear Annihilation does 300k. Fel rush crits for 95k VR crits for 30k, Fellblade crits for 200k

So that means if i use a GCD on Fell Rush i lose out on about 200k (prob more cause it tends to crit a lot) and if i use VR, i need to use another GCD on Felblade to get back into range, cause we dont wanna waste uptime on using felrush to Cancel VR. That means i have 1 abillity left to use under the Momentum buff, and that is a 300*1.2 = 360k = 590k

Where as i use 3 GCD's casting 3 Annihilations with nemesis up 3*300k*1.5 = 1350k

Also im not talking about how the spec might play out in the future, cause we aint there. The tuning might change something, but im talking right now. While doing world content and mythic dungeons.

I asume most people using momentum use Fel Mastery so the GCD is worth more. Basicly doubles the Fel Rush dmg and its a spell you use on CD with momentum.

[Mefistophelis]

@Vanyali is Fel Eruption even close to viable now that it was moved next to Momentum, or is it expected to be overshadowed by it ?

[Vanyali]

zzz. Not always true, and you have to use said other buttons anyway to generate fury.

Mythic bosses also aren't dying in 2 minutes unless you're doing rank 0.

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@Vanyali is Fel Eruption even close to viable now that it was moved next to Momentum, or is it expected to be overshadowed by it ?

I except it to be overshadowed in most cases unless you can't use momentum, just because of prepared + demonic being with it. No math backing that up though.

[Ustabil]

zzz. Not always true, and you have to use said other buttons anyway to generate fury.

Mythic bosses also aren't dying in 2 minutes unless you're doing rank 0.

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I except it to be overshadowed in most cases unless you can't use momentum, just because of prepared + demonic being with it. No math backing that up though.

Take me up on my offer then. Add me to Btag and do a dungeon with me on the beta. If you are indeed doing more dmg than me i will gladly take back what i said.

Also have to say i havent tried out much mythic+ not after the talent change anyway.

[Vanyali]

Take me up on myoffer then. Add me to Btag and do a dungeon with me on the beta. If you are indeed doing more dmg than me i will gladly take back what i said.

Fuck the btag; I'm Felstrike, Allliance.

[Mefistophelis]

I except it to be overshadowed in most cases unless you can't use momentum, just because of prepared + demonic being with it. No math backing that up though.

Thought so. Maybe in some casual @Unanilnomen builds, chilling and watching TV?