[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Teleros]

If you set up for it, it shouldn't be too hard to get the first stacks, which raises your haste and therefore improves your HP generation. But yeah I understand what you mean. As far as I know the build up wasn't that big of a deal for the people who used it.

It wasn't a big deal when it was 5% haste per stack, because a "JV > Wake > JV" opening during Sanctified Wrath meant 50% haste, and thus much faster HP generation for the rest of the duration.

In contrast, now "JV > Wake > JV" gives just 20% haste, which whilst nice, is only 40% of what it used to give, and makes generating the rest that much slower, which in turn means you get less time spent at max stacks.

[Deleted]

@Storm
Now I almost fell from my chair laughing.. AND In Extremo is awesome :>

[Ulthane]

Its sad, beyond this ret crap i like the expansion. I honestly like the rotation, they need to tweak/adjust it slightly. But i say slightly because slightly isnt an overhaul. Fun as it could be its not fun to not be viable and do no damage : /

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@Teleros would you think if they put Crusade at a lowered cd.

20, 30 60 seconds? What do you think?

[Roragos]

Guys, long time since I Last visited the forum, and just started playing the beta, and reading the Last page I saw People saying that the nerf was sort of predictable/coming, and im kinda surprised, cause at least in the lower levels our dps is very lackluster (im lvl 107 right now). Does this situation changes in lvl 110? How are our numbers so far (I know that the rotation is boring and we need better mobility , but i'm asking only about the numbers). And about talents and artifact traits, is there already an optimal rotation/setup?
Sorry if these questions were already answered, couldn't read the entire thread.

Edit: asking about retribution pve nerf, just to make it clear

[Teleros]

would you think if they put Crusade at a lowered cd.

20, 30 60 seconds? What do you think?

I think the simplest idea would be to simply make Avenging Wrath grant X% haste when you pop it, without the build-up*. It'd be a lot easier to work with then, and you'd have a choice between DP and a souped-up wings, rather than a choice between DP and a "hmm can I get 5HP and Wake ready and umm will I be in melee and this that and the other" wings :P .

*It probably wouldn't be 30-35% haste though. 15-20% would probably be more reasonable off-hand.

[Ulthane]

I think the simplest idea would be to simply make Avenging Wrath grant X% haste when you pop it, without the build-up*. It'd be a lot easier to work with then, and you'd have a choice between DP and a souped-up wings, rather than a choice between DP and a "hmm can I get 5HP and Wake ready and umm will I be in melee and this that and the other" wings :P .

*It probably wouldn't be 30-35% haste though. 15-20% would probably be more reasonable off-hand.

This is true, but if they intend to keep the current design should it have a lower cd?

[Deleted]

Great changes/revelations there , just fucking great.

Might someone of you just explain to me why we even have a Talent tree in the first place?
Cuz we won't change our Talents at all because in every row - exept the first one - we have only one valid choice and the rest are crap.
Hell the way i see it we will for the most parts run with this Talents around and the rest will never be used.

15: FV
30: Fires of Justice
45: Fist of Justice
60: Virtues Blade/Blade of wrath whatever will be the strongest of the two.
75: Justicars Vengeance
90: Divine Steed
100: Divine purpose.

All the other Talents are generally useless with one exeption. Executions Sentence the only down side with that is that this talent is only going to be use for Pure ST Raid bosses - which are very rare.

Fuck it , might just someone explain to me why so god-fucking-damn many talents of ours have within themselfs a reduced effectivness in regards to what they are actually supposed to do? Zeal for example. With all 3 Targets hitted it just deals about 434% Weapon damage - which might seem much but is in actuallity just increadibly weak against Fires of justice and what it brings in - especially since adds aren't there at all times and relativly quikly dead. And with that comes the same weakpoint for Mass judge. Adds are't there all the time , the Range is limited and the effect reduces itself by itself. Over the course of , even a short fight , it just pales compared to Fires of justice.
Some similiar things are going on with the Rest of our Talent system.

So once again why do we have a Talent tree if there is actually no choice given at all? For neither PvP nor PvE ,neither AE nor ST nor Cleave - each of us with at least half a brain will run around with the very same Talents - and for the simple reason because only these ones are usefull and not crap in the first place.

[Teleros]

This is true, but if they intend to keep the current design should it have a lower cd?

I'm not sure TBH, just because I don't know how well it compares to DP. I think a lower CD would help it for PvP purposes, because ramp-up stuff sucks there, but equally you have to avoid a clear winner in PvE circumstances.

[Ulthane]

@Zartorus yea... my thoughts exactly. Thing is if they want this talent tree as it is, placement etc to work the talents needs a relationship with Judgment.

Im working on a post in feedback when i get home but the general idea for the 100 row just as an example is

-Divine Purpose: Casting Judgment makes your next Holy Power consumer free.
-Crusade: 1 minute cooldown, for the duration Judgment grants 1 Holy Power.
-Equality: Every time Judgment deals damage the cd is lowered.

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I'm not sure TBH, just because I don't know how well it compares to DP. I think a lower CD would help it for PvP purposes, because ramp-up stuff sucks there, but equally you have to avoid a clear winner in PvE circumstances.

How about the above then. Because as it is this wouldnt be op at all and would add a little more flavor.

[Teleros]

Might someone of you just explain to me why we even have a Talent tree in the first place?

I think the only real choice will be on the L90 row. Seal of Light may work on some movement-heavy fights better than Divine Steed, and Divine Intervention may be useful too. Wondering if Greater Mass Colossus Judgement Smash of Lothar will be worth picking; we'll see I guess.

Looking at it mostly from a PvE perspective now...

L15: How often are there fights with either (a) no adds, or (b) adds you can ignore? So long Execution Sentence, we hardly knew thee. Opposite problem for Consecration: 7-9secs (haste-dependent) to deal 405% AP damage to adds is too long.*
L30: Don't know the maths for GJ vs FoJ, but I can't see Zeal working out better than them. 285% WD vs mastery buff or more Divine Storms...
L45: Fist of Justice, rest worthless and have been since this row was created 2 (3?) expansions ago.
L60: DH will screw with muscle memory unless it gives 2HP, and is worthless on single targets, so BoW/VB, whatever SimCraft says.
L75: WoG is too expensive, Eye for an Eye is useful only vs melee cleave teams etc, leaving JV by default. Also, JV synergises with stuff :O .
L90: All viable choices IMHO, but the design of this row sucks: a very useful defensive vs any hope of mobility in raids / PvP.
L100: Pick DP or Crusade depending on what SimCraft says. Though I'm guessing DP+JV will prove superior in the main.

So once again why do we have a Talent tree if there is actually no choice given at all? For neither PvP nor PvE ,neither AE nor ST nor Cleave - each of us with at least half a brain will run around with the very same Talents - and for the simple reason because only these ones are usefull and not crap in the first place.

Do you remember when Blizz implemented the current talent tree system because the old one was (a) too bloated and (b) just devolved into mindless cookie-cutter builds?

As it is, only one row offers serious choice (L90), and cookie-cutter builds are back, because the choices suck.

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* Let's have a look at WoD for the purposes of FV vs ES vs Cons...

Highmaul:

• Kargath: Execution Sentence
• The Butcher: Execution Sentence
• Brackenspore: Execution Sentence
• Tectus: Final Verdict
• Twins Ogrons: Final Verdict or Execution Sentence
• Ko'ragh: Execution Sentence
• Imperator: Final Verdict

Okay so 4-5 bosses here you could use ES on, not bad actually.

Blackrock Foundry

• Gruul: Execution Sentence
• Oregorger: Final Verdict or Execution Sentence (ES is useless during the Pac-Man phase)
• Blast Furnace: Final Verdict
• Hans'gar & Franzok: Final Verdict or Execution Sentence (shared health pool)
• Flamebender: Final Verdict
• Kromog: Final Verdict or Execution Sentence (ES is useless during the grip phase)
• Beastlord Darmac: Final Verdict
• Thogar: Final Verdict
• Iron Maidens: Final Verdict or Execution Sentence (ES is nice, but too much burst - or being sent up to the boat - is bad)
• Blackhand: Final Verdict

Some possibilities for Execution Sentence here, but the list is narrowing. Note how FV works best for bursting enemies down - eg Oregorger's ores, or Blackhand's gunners.

Hellfire Citadel

• Hellfire Assault: Final Verdict or /AFK
• Iron Reaver: Execution Sentence
• Kormrok: Final Verdict
• High Council: Final Verdict
• Kilrogg: Final Verdict
• Gorefiend: Final Verdict
• Iskar: Final Verdict
• Socrethar: Final Verdict or Execution Sentence (depends on add handling)
• Tyrant Velhari: Final Verdict
• Zakuun: Execution Sentence
• Xhul'horac: Final Verdict
• Mannoroth: Final Verdict
• Archimonde: Final Verdict

Hardly seems any point in swapping between FV and ES for the occasional boss unless someone else has put down the talent-swapping item anyway.

= + =

How about the above then. Because as it is this wouldnt be op at all and would add a little more flavor.

In addition to the current stuff? Possibly - again I just don't have any numbers to work with.

[Taeldorian]

After playing some time on beta, i feel it's the first time to seriously switch to another class (or spec, prot/holy looks good). I feel slow, i feel weak. I share most of the complaints here. I don't know what blizzard is expecting but, talents should alter the gameplay, not making a spec "playable". There are so much issues in there that playing ret paladin is simply not fun at all. I can't understand removing mobility AND range damage at the same time.

With every expac it's getting harder to stay loyal to the ret since Wrath. :'(

I already went holy and I know a few who went prot. I also know many who are staying ret. Gotta make that choice yourself though, holy/prot are definitely good right now besides the fact prot is on the boring side in pve.

@Storm the Sorrow and anyone else who wanted to go prot, it's extremely fun in pvp. Ignoring the fact we aren't balanced right now, I played for a while the other day and had a great time. The bajheera video is also a great example of how many tools prot has and how fluid the spec is without Holy power in pvp. I'd go prot if you pvp, they did say they want tanking specs to do good in pvp and prot is looking wonderful even if you ignore the OPness.

Not going to talk about ret until I wrap my head around this build. Tooltip changes and a nerf? What about the 29 (give or take considering bad feedback and or nonsense) pages we have of feedback? They even extended our thread.

[Ulthane]

@Taeldorian i really think they have to either go ham on mechanic changes in a way thats similar to the big post i did on tgere or double down on Judgment and ability relationship.

Judgment having a presence in the 100 row and others would make the spec more fulid and the only thing is that CS needs a damage buff.

Examples
-FV: Final Verdict extends the duration of Judgment and if Judgment hits your target when they have the Judgment debuff they take 200% additional damage from Judgment.
-ES: Places a debuff on the target. When you use Judgment they instantly take damage.
-Consecration: Generates 1 holy power every time it deals damage.
-Crusader Strike: 300% damage, generates 2 - 3 hp.
-Zeal: 300% as holy.
-Blade of Justice: Deals holy damage, reduces Judgment cd by x on hit. No HP gen.
-Virtues Blade: Blade of Justice causes uour next Judgment to automatically crit and deal 3x crit damage.
-Blade of Wrath: Replaces BoJ, 400% as holy. Melee range. 0 HP, 4 sec cd. Redcues Judge CD by 2X
-Divine Hammer: Generates 1 hp each time it deals damage. Lowers Judge cd by 1 every time it hits.

This is a rough idea to combine with the 100 relationship i said above. Thoughts. Rough draft.

[Taeldorian]

@Ulthane I agree with you but after seeing the last few builds I don't think they're going to do anything major like that unfortunately. I personally believe aside from tuning it's probably going to go live this way (I seriously hope I'm wrong..) and they're going to wait for feedback/raw data in order to change anything if they do decide to change anything. We've had changes after launch before and so have other classes meaning it's not completely out of the picture but I have a feeling they're going to wait until then (please please be wrong). I do like your ideas as always though.

Either way, all of the feedback is great. Whether or not Blizzard replies to us we should just keep filling up the forums with our feedback and create the heavy presence we have over the class/spec forums (most pages, most views, obvious issues being pointed out repeatedly). In our case, beating the dead horse is going to help a lot most likely. By that I mean bringing up our mobility/utility issues on every page is ideal so they see the problem is across the board.

[Deleted]

@ Ulthane , it's not only that the talents need a relationship/synergie with each other and especially our baseline abilites , currently most of them are just replacements. But most importantly they should be a gain and not a gain that has a reduction in it'self. Or a simple range limitation where the adds litteraly have to be within each other for Zeal and Greater Judge to hit them. Or with the latter that it can even be used on the adds in the first place. Thing of it like fights where the two tanks have to keep the adds somewhat seperated but still close enough to allow cleave damage also hit the boss - or things like where the adds are naturally further away from the boss. Greater Judge has no real value within these kinds of fights besides it's 2sec reduced CD - this compared to a whole sec reduction for CS and a good chance to reduce the HP cost for abilites and the Synergie given with DP? Yeah there is no real question given here. Well it could change but this would be only because of numbers and not because of a better design choice - which would make the whole system even more of a cancer than it already is.

@ Teleros , honestly i do not think that the 90 row gives us even a choice in the slightest. Think about it , Divine Intervention is great for either : you are a lazy fuck and plan to not use your mighty mylittlepony in the first place , or you can use it for special tactics like rogue cloak on Xhul. Besides this ? This Talent has no real benefits for better players if you ask me.
Seal of Light is in and on itself a dps loss. But not only that it will be a pain in the ass to handle it in the first place. See it that way: You are currently fighting a boss and you have to move from point a to point b , in many cases this would have to be done in a more hasty manner in which SoL doesn't helps that much to beginn with - granted to avoid shit that lies on the ground it is great but besides that not so much. Even worse , what is if you are having currently 2-3 Holy power ? What do you do? Use TV and then a Generator and maybe you loose valuable time which may or may not kill you , or you are going to waste 2-3-whatever Holypower for a speedincrease duration you do not actually need in the first place for most parts.
Derpony may not be the most efficient one , but it is certainly , for most fights , the most effective and most imporantly it comes without a cost and risk of loosing to many HP for no real purpose or gain.
Now one might argue that with a bit of planning this can be easily avoided - and in that you would be correct. But the question is: Why? The whole planning gives you in many cases no real net benefit or anything that could justifiy the investment given in there - Mylittlepony is far simpler in both use and cost/gain and you run very little chance to doing anything wrong.
Now of course it depends on flavor - but if we are to take things in a way of max. everything out i believe the pony will be the best "choice".
As for PvP - that one isn't even really a question. You have to be at your target in order to help you get to your target - with a buff that can be despelled - or ignored if you are a Feral or moonkin or Hunter.

The whole Cookiecutter nonsense is as it is - nonsense. There will always be the best talents in a mathmatical way no matter what you are doing - with some minor exeptions depending on skill of course. Later on that one.
The point , as i would say it , of the current Talent system is to bring in more depth and actuall choice between what you would like to have or not. There are some Classes like Druid that are showcasing this rather good with the Hybridrow for example of Frost and Unholy DKs where there is some flavor given within the talent tree.
Ours on the other hand - well it is onesided and highly limited in it's use but also it's playability.
For example: Why would anyone take Divine Hammer? For questing it is near useless , for Dungeons even worse than that since we no longer can switch freely between Talents. So whats the point of it then? More importantly what is the point between having Virtues blade and Blade of Wrath? The idea might seem good , but the implementation through the whole concept behind Ret just simply prohibits it's purpose in and on itself.
BoW is a Talent for people who like to have a more active playstyle where you are pressing many buttons per minutes compared to VB for example. But if you are poised to do this - then you are most likely geared towards haste and with that - ironicly - since BoJ/VB have a higher base CD it also benefits more from it and with that the CD gap between BoJ and BoW becomes less - relevant shall we say. Thereby , BoW has no use really - maybe in the first month or less but after that? Probably not , no.
Btw this a similiar problem within Greater Judge since the lower the CD the "less" it profits from Haste - ironicly enough.

[Ulthane]

@Ulthane I agree with you but after seeing the last few builds I don't think they're going to do anything major like that unfortunately. I personally believe aside from tuning it's probably going to go live this way (I seriously hope I'm wrong..) and they're going to wait for feedback/raw data in order to change anything if they do decide to change anything. We've had changes after launch before and so have other classes meaning it's not completely out of the picture but I have a feeling they're going to wait until then (please please be wrong). I do like your ideas as always though.

Either way, all of the feedback is great. Whether or not Blizzard replies to us we should just keep filling up the forums with our feedback and create the heavy presence we have over the class/spec forums (most pages, most views, obvious issues being pointed out repeatedly). In our case, beating the dead horse is going to help a lot most likely. By that I mean bringing up our mobility/utility issues on every page is ideal so they see the problem is across the board.

If 1 more build is like this then what we see is what we are going to be stuck with for a while. So yea <.<

Otherwise aside from mobility they need a better relationship with Judgment and our abilities with this structure. Id even say with Greater Blessings as well.

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One of the biggest issues is our main mechanic is Judgment and it holds no real relationship with any talents.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Should of given Judgement charges instead of Crusader Strike.

[Teleros]

Think about it , Divine Intervention is great for either : you are a lazy fuck and plan to not use your mighty mylittlepony in the first place , or you can use it for special tactics like rogue cloak on Xhul. Besides this ? This Talent has no real benefits for better players if you ask me.

Well that's two uses right there :P .

I think it'll also be a nice talent for fights where movement isn't a big issue, or when you're learning them etc.

Seal of Light is in and on itself a dps loss. But not only that it will be a pain in the ass to handle it in the first place. See it that way: You are currently fighting a boss and you have to move from point a to point b , in many cases this would have to be done in a more hasty manner in which SoL doesn't helps that much to beginn with - granted to avoid shit that lies on the ground it is great but besides that not so much. Even worse , what is if you are having currently 2-3 Holy power ? What do you do? Use TV and then a Generator and maybe you loose valuable time which may or may not kill you , or you are going to waste 2-3-whatever Holypower for a speedincrease duration you do not actually need in the first place for most parts.

Oh I agree it has a rather serious flaw in the form of its cost, but when you need to move more often than once every 45 seconds, it might be worth it to keep it up, even if you have to sacrifice a few TV / JV casts over the course of a fight. I mean, a 5min fight would cost you 15 HP to keep SoL up the whole time

Derpony may not be the most efficient one , but it is certainly , for most fights , the most effective and most imporantly it comes without a cost and risk of loosing to many HP for no real purpose or gain.
Now one might argue that with a bit of planning this can be easily avoided - and in that you would be correct. But the question is: Why? The whole planning gives you in many cases no real net benefit or anything that could justifiy the investment given in there - Mylittlepony is far simpler in both use and cost/gain and you run very little chance to doing anything wrong.
Now of course it depends on flavor - but if we are to take things in a way of max. everything out i believe the pony will be the best "choice".

As far as HP / mana / etc goes it's cost-free which is good, but if the uptime isn't good enough, then SoL may be superior. I think you're probably right that Derpony will be superior most of the time, but hey, at least you can make arguments for the rest of the row.

As for PvP - that one isn't even really a question. You have to be at your target in order to help you get to your target - with a buff that can be despelled - or ignored if you are a Feral or moonkin or Hunter.

Yeah PvP's another matter.

The whole Cookiecutter nonsense is as it is - nonsense. There will always be the best talents in a mathmatical way no matter what you are doing - with some minor exeptions depending on skill of course. Later on that one.

I think the mathematical side of it is often overemphasised given the realities of fights etc, but so long as the difference is small enough I don't think it's a big deal. Do you deal +50% damage 50% of the time, or +25% damage all the time (etc)... they'll average out and some will prefer A to B or vice versa.

The point , as i would say it , of the current Talent system is to bring in more depth and actuall choice between what you would like to have or not. There are some Classes like Druid that are showcasing this rather good with the Hybridrow for example of Frost and Unholy DKs where there is some flavor given within the talent tree.
Ours on the other hand - well it is onesided and highly limited in it's use but also it's playability.

Yeah, I think Blizz messed up in two ways with the Legion talents (in general):

1. No specific rows, as in MoP/WoD. Ie we used to have a mobility row, a DPS row, a defensive row, but by jumbling them all up... urgh.
2. Poor synergy. Ohai Ret.

For example: Why would anyone take Divine Hammer? For questing it is near useless , for Dungeons even worse than that since we no longer can switch freely between Talents. So whats the point of it then? More importantly what is the point between having Virtues blade and Blade of Wrath? The idea might seem good , but the implementation through the whole concept behind Ret just simply prohibits it's purpose in and on itself.

Assuming BoW and VB provide roughly equal DPS over the course of a boss fight, it'll come down to choice.

DH is like Equality: a trap to help guilds decline invites. "Oh you picked Equality/DH/etc? You bad, application declined, GTFO."

I guess that means it's technically useful though :P ?

Btw this a similiar problem within Greater Judge since the lower the CD the "less" it profits from Haste - ironicly enough.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, because it means our secondary stat weights change based on our talents, which is IMHO a good thing. Being able to pick talents and thus go for a crit-heavy or mastery-heavy build (etc) is a good idea.

Now sure, one will be superior to the other in SimCraft etc, but at least those who aren't focused on min/maxing (and they do exist :O !) can have fun.

[Ulthane]

Should of given Judgement charges instead of Crusader Strike.

Hmm.... thoughts.... ill work that in this draft tonight.

[Vintersol]

Should of given Judgement charges instead of Crusader Strike.

Then we need some other HP generator sources.

[Teleros]

Then we need some other HP generator sources.

Just scrap the CD on Crusader Strike, and if need be nerf its damage a little (and that of Zeal) to balance things out DPS-wise.