Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Lorentz]

some more responses:


From what i understand - nightblade:finality might be counted as it's own DoT?(mega abuse for this, castin nightblades 2x as often) or more likely pandemic will work correctly, but the rest of the finality damage won't be lost....somehow.

And Deeper Strat's 6th cp is supposed to be added to cp based effects like alacrity and relentless strikes....so 100% +20%(separate roll) proc chance on those for 6cp use, not bad.

And weaponmaster may be better than expected....it still sucks though imo

I think we end up shifting uptime in our advantage - refresh Nightblade when hits Pandemic window, refresh Finality:Nightblade as close to end of duration as possible.

[Deleted]

some more responses:


From what i understand - nightblade:finality might be counted as it's own DoT?(mega abuse for this, castin nightblades 2x as often) or more likely pandemic will work correctly, but the rest of the finality damage won't be lost....somehow.

And Deeper Strat's 6th cp is supposed to be added to cp based effects like alacrity and relentless strikes....so 100% +20%(separate roll) proc chance on those for 6cp use, not bad.

And weaponmaster may be better than expected....it still sucks though imo

I think we end up shifting uptime in our advantage - refresh Nightblade when hits Pandemic window, refresh Finality:Nightblade as close to end of duration as possible.

Finality Nightblade is already treated as a separate DOT, it just is completely overwritten by normal nightblade, for that very reason you suggest i would imagine elf(2xDOTs up at once). I can see the solution for them being to give finality a stacking effect like ignite and UA, but have it capped so you can only every carry over the maximum pandemic threshold into your new dot, so refreshing too early loses you dps, seems like the way to go. Currently having to wait until the very last tick to refresh leads to a lot of situations where you either clip your last dot, wasted cp procs from ST or cap energy, the former being the least punishing i would imagine, but still feels bad clipping.

The whole DS working on some abilities has been itching my tits for ages now, been submitting lots of stuff about it, e.g stuff like MfD not giving you 6cp instead of 5cp, which is so fucking annoying, glad they are finally addressing this.

Weaponmaster will still be shite, it's proc chance is way way too low and damage difference you get from MoS is massive in comparison like 7% more damage over a 10min parse for me in 802 ilvl gear. It needs to have an separate proc chance for dot damage(see Dragonwrath for example ~14%) for it to be close to competitive.

[Lorentz]

Finality Nightblade is already treated as a separate DOT, it just is completely overwritten by normal nightblade, for that very reason you suggest i would imagine elf(2xDOTs up at once). I can see the solution for them being to give finality a stacking effect like ignite and UA, but have it capped so you can only every carry over the maximum pandemic threshold into your new dot, so refreshing too early loses you dps, seems like the way to go. Currently having to wait until the very last tick to refresh leads to a lot of situations where you either clip your last dot, wasted cp procs from ST or cap energy, the former being the least punishing i would imagine, but still feels bad clipping.

The whole DS working on some abilities has been itching my tits for ages now, been submitting lots of stuff about it, e.g stuff like MfD not giving you 6cp instead of 5cp, which is so fucking annoying, glad they are finally addressing this.

Weaponmaster will still be shite, it's proc chance is way way too low and damage difference you get from MoS is massive in comparison like 7% more damage over a 10min parse for me in 802 ilvl gear. It needs to have an separate proc chance for dot damage(see Dragonwrath for example ~14%) for it to be close to competitive.

NB and F:NB being overwriting each other is going to be fixed, it's in TC thread on official forum.

[Deleted]

NB and F:NB being overwriting each other is going to be fixed, it's in TC thread on official forum.

Errrr i know.......hence why i was suggesting the ignite type mechanic for it, since i doubt they will let you have two dots up at once, was the point

[Lorentz]

Errrr i know.......hence why i was suggesting the ignite type mechanic for it, since i doubt they will let you have two dots up at once, was the point

I wasn't talking about 2 DoTs at once. What I mean is that you can have either NB or F:NB. The only thing I can see min/maxing with that is applying F:NB when NB hits Pandemic threshold and applying NB when you have as close as possible to 0 seconds left on F:NB

[Rikhart]

What´s pandemic? Everyone talking about that, no idea what that is, not on spell book, or artifact or whatever.

[Skayaq]

It's the effect that extends dots and buffs when you refresh them early.

[Deleted]

I wasn't talking about 2 DoTs at once. What I mean is that you can have either NB or F:NB. The only thing I can see min/maxing with that is applying F:NB when NB hits Pandemic threshold and applying NB when you have as close as possible to 0 seconds left on F:NB

Ahhh right that makes more sense now. Thought i do hope that won't be the case as we already have SoD and ES to keep an eyes on and they make it stacking damage with a cap as what you are describing is basically a form of dot snapshotting, and i had enough of that shit on my lock in mists tbh!!!!

Not to mention that it will make the rotation flow a lot better rather than clunky delaying waiting on dots to tick to the correct values while no wasting energy/CPs. If i wanted heavy dot management i'd go feral

[Deleted]

I didn't understand the dev's response. Will F:NB pandemic with regular Nightblade or not?

[Deleted]

I didn't understand the dev's response. Will F:NB pandemic with regular Nightblade or not?

It appears they want it too, but how they handle how the damage will roll over is what we're speculating since you're either going to upgrade or downgrade your nightblade depending on what and when you are refreshing or they will roll the pandemic damage into your new nightblade, ignite stylee, irrespective of whether its a finality one or not.

Clear as mud tbh

[kalaratic]

I didn't understand the dev's response. Will F:NB pandemic with regular Nightblade or not?

just to add on to what osanger said, nightblade and finality: nightblade are 2 separate debuffs with different IDs. currently whenever u refresh a regular nightblade or finality one within the pandemic window, it will always refresh to 16 sec, which is the regular 5cp duration. so basically celestalon is saying that it is intended for pandemic to work with both nightblades so they can both be refreshed to a full duration of i think it was 21 sec.

[Deleted]

just to add on to what osanger said, nightblade and finality: nightblade are 2 separate debuffs with different IDs. currently whenever u refresh a regular nightblade or finality one within the pandemic window, it will always refresh to 16 sec, which is the regular 5cp duration. so basically celestalon is saying that it is intended for pandemic to work with both nightblades so they can both be refreshed to a full duration of i think it was 21 sec.

Still, right now they override each other when applied, right? My doubt is if what is intended is for both Nightblades to still override each other but also affect each other with pandemic, or if they're going to be two entirely separate DoTs (as in you can have both NB and F:NB up) that only pandemic with themselves.

[kalaratic]

Still, right now they override each other when applied, right? My doubt is if what is intended is for both Nightblades to still override each other but also affect each other with pandemic, or if they're going to be two entirely separate DoTs (as in you can have both NB and F:NB up) that only pandemic with themselves.

ya, hitting a nightblade when a regular one is up will replace it with a finality and vice-versa. it's intended for them to be overridden, having 2 nightblades on a target would be really unbalanced, it does really good dmg on it's own atm.

[Deleted]

ya, hitting a nightblade when a regular one is up will replace it with a finality and vice-versa. it's intended for them to be overridden, having 2 nightblades on a target would be really unbalanced, it does really good dmg on it's own atm.

Ty, I got it. So we'll be min/maxing Nightblades as part of our rotation, and it will likely be a big part of our DPS. Legion Sub seems like it will be quite the complex spec, I just hope the DPS is rewarding of that.

EDIT: Well, unless the damage portions change according to the type of Nightblade. As in you refresh a regular NB with F:NB within pandemic, so the remaining time portion that pertained to NB will do regular damage, and once it's over it will start doing F:NB damage.

[kalaratic]

ya i don't really know what happened to legion subtlety. between catering to us ppl who bitch at them for basically everything they've changed and trying to make the spec approachable to new ppl, i don't think they have pleased either side. the vocal minority is still really vocal and i honestly don't see ppl playing sub at all just from sitting the class hall. i would say like 60% are outlaw, 35% are mut, with the odd 5% playing sub. people just aren't clicking with the spec, experienced or not.

like the complexity is there, but anything that is complex just works in it's own little realm, it doesn't connect with any other parts of the spec.

[dloc76]

ya i don't really know what happened to legion subtlety. between catering to us ppl who bitch at them for basically everything they've changed and trying to make the spec approachable to new ppl, i don't think they have pleased either side. the vocal minority is still really vocal and i honestly don't see ppl playing sub at all just from sitting the class hall. i would say like 60% are outlaw, 35% are mut, with the odd 5% playing sub. people just aren't clicking with the spec, experienced or not.

like the complexity is there, but anything that is complex just works in it's own little realm, it doesn't connect with any other parts of the spec.

I'm one of the few as well. I've seen a lot of Outlaw and Sin Rogues and not many Sub. I like the spec, but at the same time I hate the spec. We do have 3 months until launch, many things can still change. I'm just not that hopeful as the past has done the same shit over and over and Rogues wont be fixed until a later patch.

[Deleted]

Ty, I got it. So we'll be min/maxing Nightblades as part of our rotation, and it will likely be a big part of our DPS. Legion Sub seems like it will be quite the complex spec, I just hope the DPS is rewarding of that.

EDIT: Well, unless the damage portions change according to the type of Nightblade. As in you refresh a regular NB with F:NB within pandemic, so the remaining time portion that pertained to NB will do regular damage, and once it's over it will start doing F:NB damage.

Pretty much and i'm with Kal on the two dots question, we would spend all our time managing them and never eviscerating tbh, aside from the DPCT being so high for NB. The question you pose about how they will manage the damage portions is what led me to think that the ignite mechanic would work the best, i've got no idea what kind of hocus pocus they have going on under the hood to allow a dot to behave like your suggesting and still dynamically update from stuff like trinket procs etc, seems like it would be vastly over complicated compared to just adding the pandemic damage to your new dot and spreading the damage over the duration, so you lose nothing.

But hey this is blizzard and they never do things simply lol

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ya i don't really know what happened to legion subtlety. between catering to us ppl who bitch at them for basically everything they've changed and trying to make the spec approachable to new ppl, i don't think they have pleased either side. the vocal minority is still really vocal and i honestly don't see ppl playing sub at all just from sitting the class hall. i would say like 60% are outlaw, 35% are mut, with the odd 5% playing sub. people just aren't clicking with the spec, experienced or not.

like the complexity is there, but anything that is complex just works in it's own little realm, it doesn't connect with any other parts of the spec.

Seeing the same thing really tbh. Not that i'm trying to be an even more special snowflake but i've gone away from playing with ES and sticking with premed, i find it allows me to play the more pool and burst style that i'm used to and weirdly even tho its a passive it actually gives you more control. It definitley slows the spec down a bit and must be played with DS since your CP come in 2s when your dancing but i find it much easier to line up Finality: DFA's with big trinket procs etc as i can sit and pool without worrying about filling my CPs until i want to(ST doesn't feel that it procs very much), plus it plays much better in PvP for burst as well, so win win for me.

[Rikhart]

Shadow Dance being on gcd is horrible. Please revert. Also Symbols costing energy while you are stealth is really awkward while questing, you end up pausing 4 seconds waiting for energy to refill between mobs.

[Xaryen]

Shadow Dance is not on GCD and never was.

[kalaratic]

Shadow Dance is not on GCD and never was.

wut. it is 100% on the gcd in legion