BREXIT - leave or remain?

[petok]

EU and especially US will never let GB leave, no matter how people will vote
Be realistic, not naive

[ati87]

Nobody knows how the EU works, not the politicians, not the people, not even you bright boy. That's why millions of people will vote to leave in a few days time.

What do you mean nobody knows?

I know that we vote for our respective national governments, our governments have a say in EU policy
I know that for allot of laws our parliaments need to ratify treaties
I know we can vote for the EU parliament

I know that just by voting for my government they need to represent our respective countries best interest and the best interest of the EU.

Do I need to know everything? No but then again I would be surprised if you also knew everything in regards to your national politics.

Does the average person know the minimum threshold or how the power of government is divided between different branches?
Does the average person know the exact role of their presidents or monarch?

Your using your own ignorance as justification for your anti European behaviour and you would see (and hope for) the destruction of this institution it because of your own ignorance.

[dribbles]

What do you mean nobody knows?

I know that we vote for our respective national governments, our governments have a say in EU politics

I know that just by voting for my government they need to represent our respective countries best interest and the best interest of the EU.

Our UK government has no say in EU policy, it has objected many times, but it has been 19 years since a British objection has stopped an EU measure put to the vote from going through.

[Mayhem]

I'd be willing to bet most people can't name the EU president let alone their MEP or where to lobby them. In any case one or two people lobbying even if they could would make no difference against the pro EU big pharma, bankers etc lobbiers who have the EU legislators firmly in their pockets.

If you are happy being governed by the big multinational companies and an erosion of worker's rights then you should vote to Remain.

So your choice is to tackle the multinational companies on your own and expect a more favourable outcome?

[Deleted]

I'm 55-45 in favour of staying, as it's the leave campaign that wants things to change the onus is on them to present a compelling reason why.

There's clearly pros and cons of each and it's up to each individual to assess what matters most to them. Unfortunately all that's happening at the moment are character assassinations which I suspect is exactly what Cameron wants, similar to the general election a year ago.

[Whiskeyjack WN]

looking forward to see brexit win and the Scotts making a second referendum for independance and staying in the EU. Then we will see what "shit hits the fan" means.

How funny would it be, if the UK voted to leave the EU because England voted too but Scotland/Wales/NI didn't. And then Scotland/Wales/NI all negotiated to remain in the EU lol (yes we can do that, we're all real countries just like Cyprus/Malta, the UK is just a union of the member countries like the EU is). England would find itself out of the EU but sharing physical open borders with two EU countries XD

I find it a little strange that one of the main scaremongering arguments for Scotland to remain in the UK was the fact that it would not be granted EU membership if it left.. (and it was a good argument, it convinced a lot of my work colleagues) Yet now they seem to think that if the UK leaves they will be able to vote independence and be allowed to join the EU this time?

I don't know about Wales or Scotland, but NI wouldn't be able to survive as an independent country. The financial strain alone would collapse it never mind the underline political difficulties.

On another note: the UN does not recognize Wales or Scotland as a country, they fall under the country status of the UK&NI. How would that effect their ability to join the EU and UN? It may cause some years of grief while the paperwork is resolved?

And the UK already shares a physical border with Ireland which is still in the EU. While the 'common travel land' agreement between the UK & Ireland predates the EU, it may cause border issues if the UK leaves because EU members can freely travel to Ireland and then freely cross into the UK.

[Mehrunes]

Ahhh I see, kinda knew those pesky Germans were involved somewhere. Finally someone admits what the European Project is all about, and good luck but hopefully the UK will be gone soon enough and you will have no obstacles to your Fourth Reich.

Another good reason to leave and I thank you.

You do realize that Germans are a minority in the European Parliament, right? Or does your xenophobic paranoia make you think Germans make over a half of European population? "The mostly not-German MEPs voted for a German MEP to become the president of the EP? Must be the Fourth Reich's doing!" I don't even...

Nobody knows how the EU works, not the politicians, not the people, not even you bright boy. That's why millions of people will vote to leave in a few days time.

Because the TEU and TFEU are a myth.

Our UK government has no say in EU policy, it has objected many times, but it has been 19 years since a British objection has stopped an EU measure put to the vote from going through.

So what you're saying is that UK got outvoted. Holy shit, the level of tyranny here is unreal. There are no ways to even properly measure it, since it's so off the charts. And UK has the same say as everyone else. Your MEPs have a say in EP. Your ministers have a say in Council, your Prime Minister has a say in European Council. Poor UK, so oppressed and gagged. Their voice was taken away from them.

[ati87]

Our UK government has no say in EU policy, it has objected many times, but it has been 19 years since a British objection has stopped an EU measure put to the vote from going through.

Now your just lying...

The UK isn't part of every aspect of the EU hence they don't have the Euro, this also means that the UK doesn't have a big role as member's that have the euro. Not sure what your expecting actually when your against more integration but at the same tuime complain about lack of integration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-ou...European_Union
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ies-en.svg.png

Is the EU complex? yes well your talking about member's with different level of integration and some countries that officially haven't joined but follow the rules of the EU anyway. But at it's core is simple enough and it's mostly the countries that are bitching about sovereignty that make it more complex.

We can have a more simple EU tomorrow if you got rid of the whole ''sovereignty bitching'' crowd, but since we have a crowd of people that cry sovereignty at every turn we don't have a totally unified union and then complaining about how ineffective the Union sometimes is because it's not a total union.

[Deleted]

I hope remain wins, otherwise how am I supposed to buy things from Amazon (UK)? Customs would be to expensive to deal with.

[Mehrunes]

I find it a little strange that one of the main scaremongering arguments for Scotland to remain in the UK was the fact that it would not be granted EU membership if it left.. (and it was a good argument, it convinced a lot of my work colleagues) Yet now they seem to think that if the UK leaves they will be able to vote independence and be allowed to join the EU this time?

In case of independence, once Scotland meets the criteria, the only real factor that would prevent their accession into the EU would be UK cockblocking it with a veto. No UK, no veto. Though the question is if they'd meet the criteria.

On another note: the UN does not recognize Wales or Scotland as a country, they fall under the country status of the UK&NI. How would that effect their ability to join the EU and UN? It may cause some years of grief while the paperwork is resolved?

Scotland's status as a country is a geopolitical fact. It may be an independent state, but that's different topic. And if they gain independence, they will be recognized as an independent state.

[Soxoffender]

Most of the EU workers rights stuff has been copying stuff the UK already had.

This is not true:
https://medium.com/@seanjones11kbw/i...311#.baw9b9pox

• The working Time Directive was more generous than what we had at the time (and we fought against it).
• The last time the EU tried to improve workers' rights, we vetoed the Pregnant Workers Directive.
• The Equal Pay Directive enhanced our equivalent act.
• Part time/Fixed contract workers have specific rights that are derived wholly from EU laws with no UK equivalent.

- - - Updated - - -

are you seriously trying to use 6 year old data to make a point UKIP 2010 yeah maybe you need some more upto date figures and a look at ukips new manifesto.

How many of the people who wrote the 2010 manifesto are still members of the party? I'd be willing to bet almost all of them bar Godfrey Bloom and Suzanne Evans. It's fundamentally the same party as it was then.

They're still run by people like the charming Paul Wiffen, who was briefly suspended after accusing UKIP oponents of "Wanting to hand our birthright to Romanian Gypsies who beat their wives and children into begging and stealing money they can gamble with, Muslim nutters who want to kill us and put us all under medieval Sharia law, the same Africans who sold their Afro-Caribbean brothers into a slavery that Britain was the first to abolish (but you still want to apologise for!).", only to be quietly brought back.

[Mayhem]

So what you're saying is that UK got outvoted. Holy shit, the level of tyranny here is unreal. There are no ways to even properly measure it, since it's so off the charts. And UK has the same say as everyone else. Your MEPs have a say in EP. Your ministers have a say in Council, your Prime Minister has a say in European Council. Poor UK, so oppressed and gagged. Their voice was taken away from them.

Yeah, it´s fucking undemocratic when one country out of 28 can´t stop something that´s been put to vote!!

[dribbles]

Yeah, it´s fucking undemocratic when one country out of 28 can´t stop something that´s been put to vote!!

But that's what the Brexit vote is for, to get our voice back, finally you twigged! Funny to see all the German remainiacs on this forum begging the UK to stay in tho but,....

Why would we want to pay billions of euro to be a member of a club that that all it does is send us 100000's of unemployed people every year?

[caervek]

How many of the people who wrote the 2010 manifesto are still members of the party?

To be fair, not many, plus that manifesto was completely disowned/ridiculed after Farage took over.

[Mayhem]

But that's what the Brexit vote is for, to get our voice back, finally you twigged! Funny to see all the German remainiacs on this forum begging the UK to stay in tho but,....

I´m neither german nor begging the UK to stay. Also, your very own democracy isn´t working that way, so why do you expect the EU to be working that way?

Why would we want to pay billions of euro to be a member of a club that that all it does is send us 100000's of unemployed people every year?

Because you can freely trade with a market of 500 mio people. Are you also one that thinks all stats put out by the UK government are made up or do you pull those 100k a year out of your ass?

[Whiskeyjack WN]

In case of independence, once Scotland meets the criteria, the only real factor that would prevent their accession into the EU would be UK cockblocking it with a veto. No UK, no veto. Though the question is if they'd meet the criteria.

Scotland's status as a country is a geopolitical fact. It may be an independent state, but that's different topic. And if they gain independence, they will be recognized as an independent state.

I'm not sure but i think Spain said it would veto it as it did not want the same thing happening with Catalonia? There are probably other countries worried about the same thing happening?

What would those requirements be? Would they have to join the Euro? After all at the time it was members of the EP that said they would not be able to meet these criteria. Joining the Euro would probably be a big help in becoming a member.. would the Scots want to use Euro? How long would this take and would they suffer in the mean time?

Indeed Scotland is a country (and Wales), but what I am asking is that due to the fact that the UN does not recognize that at the minute, how long would it take for that issue to be resolved and what would those effects been during that waiting period? after all it could be years of paperwork? With Scotland currently reliant on a volatile oil market how would this period of transition affect them?

Yeah, it´s fucking undemocratic when one country out of 28 can´t stop something that´s been put to vote!!

Doesn't the UN work under unanimous vote system where a single country can veto all decisions? the EU should do this too imo? Unless it is a Euro specific issue then (provided the others are not affected) only the Euro using countries should vote.

But that said the fact that there is 28 countries is the main reason the EU struggles to strike trade deals. Like the current China agreement failing over some issues in Romania.

The UK would be able to strike trade deals much easier on their own... The question is, would the government strike deals that are mutually beneficial? or would they let the UK get screwed? A lot of it hinges on the ability of the government, but at least we can vote them out if they make a mess of things

[Mayhem]

Doesn't the UN work under unanimous vote system where a single country can veto all decisions? the EU should do this too imo? Unless it is a Euro specific issue then (provided the others are not affected) only the Euro using countries should vote.

But that said the fact that there is 28 countries is the main reason the EU struggles to strike trade deals. Like the current China agreement failing over some issues in Romania.

The UK would be able to strike trade deals much easier on their own... The question is, would the government strike deals that are mutually beneficial? or would they let the UK get screwed? A lot of it hinges on the ability of the government, but at least we can vote them out if they make a mess of things

There are 5 countries that have veto power in the UN, and how is that a democracy? No sure the UK can more easily strike trade deals with alot less leverage, that sounds admirable.

[Spray]

Someone with the gene of national treason, I see. /s

Of course! If, by the standards of the new party-in-charge, I am considered as a bad Pole, then... 'sall good, because I'm quite probably just a good human being.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

But US has repeatedly stated they are not interested in Brexit or post-Brexit UK. Which triggered yet another wave of "muh sovereignty" cry-fest from the leavers, despite them glorifying the US before they made their stance known.

The "US" did not say that. A lame duck President who would have his country join the EU if he could get away with it said that. President Obama is in the period of his presidency where presidents generally talk a whole bunch but do very little. It's ideological hyperbole. Don't fret over it. We've been close allies and trading partners with Great Britain for over a century now. That's not going to end any time soon.

So, in order: sacrificing largest economy on the planet that's right next to their doorstep for something they already have, xenophobia and cluelessness about EU. And EU flag is at least symmetrical as opposed to the UK one.

Neither the EU or the US is going so sacrifice trading with an economy as important as the UK's because they upset the elites in Brussels. Money will win out over sentiment. It always does.

On the flag, tiny orange-gold stars in the middle of a sea of blue don't pop very well. White and red offer far better contrast and are identifiable from much further away. The Union flag is iconic and in every way superior to a very boring EU flag.

[Teleros]

I find it a little strange that one of the main scaremongering arguments for Scotland to remain in the UK was the fact that it would not be granted EU membership if it left.. (and it was a good argument, it convinced a lot of my work colleagues) Yet now they seem to think that if the UK leaves they will be able to vote independence and be allowed to join the EU this time?

If Scotland left the UK tomorrow, then the rest of the UK could veto their accession into the EU. If Scotland left the UK after the UK left the EU... they might still get vetoed - but this time by Spain, which would seek to establish a precedent for its own secessionist movements. Madrid does NOT want the Catalonians in particular thinking they can sail into the EU if they secede from Spain, so in its own interests it could very well block Scottish membership.

I don't know about Wales or Scotland, but NI wouldn't be able to survive as an independent country. The financial strain alone would collapse it never mind the underline political difficulties.

Same with Wales and Scotland. Their governments gobble up a huge % of their GDP.

On another note: the UN does not recognize Wales or Scotland as a country, they fall under the country status of the UK&NI. How would that effect their ability to join the EU and UN? It may cause some years of grief while the paperwork is resolved?

Doesn't matter so long as enough actual countries recognise them (particularly the important ones, like the USA, France & Germany, China, blah blah).

= + =

Now your just lying...

And you're talking out of your disingenuous posterior. Dribbles never said the UK was "part of every aspect of the EU". He said only that it's been 19 years since the UK was able block an EU measure.

= + =

I hope remain wins, otherwise how am I supposed to buy things from Amazon (UK)? Customs would be to expensive to deal with.

That depends entirely on what, if any, tariffs are set up between the UK and EU. Given that the UK has historically championed free trade, expect few on our side. Some in the EU might want to, but the Germans, Dutch et al will want to trade with us (we do love us some German cars), and as we buy more from EU nations than we sell to them, it's a net gain for them if we continue to trade freely.

There'd also be lots of complaints from the WTO etc if the EU suddenly erected trade barriers and such against the UK.

= + =

Scotland's status as a country is a geopolitical fact. It may be an independent state, but that's different topic. And if they gain independence, they will be recognized as an independent state.

Don't mention such arguments in earshot of someone from the PRC. Taiwan is still "officially" part of China, and Beijing gets grumpy when people go around recognising Taiwan as an independent state and all that.

Also, see my point re Spain above.

= + =

I'm quite probably just a naive human being.

Fixed that for you.