When do you start to exist?

[Birgwow]

It's my brother's birthday today so our mother said "It's hard to think how you didn't exist 24 years ago." and I said "Well, he did exist, just not outside your belly.". I obviously get what she meant by that, but this still sparked a long discussion between me and my family about when you start to exist.


Their arguments:

• You don't exist until you are born. You exist as something else in the womb, but only start to exist as yourself outside of it. He likened it to how when a butterfly comes out of a pupa, it's not a butterfly until it comes out. Similarly, you're a fetus until you are born, at which point you become a human.
• As long as you're connected to your mother you don't have your own life yet. You need to be independent.
• Life begins when you're born.
• If you kill a pregnant woman it only counts as one murder, therefore the fetus isn't considered a human life yet. Law (in Sweden) is on their side.
• Until you experience things yourself (breathing, seeing, etc.) you're not you yet. You don't exist yet.

My arguments:

• You exist even in the womb. The only thing separating you as you are in the womb and outside is the fact that you're in the womb, not outside.
• You're still you, even in the belly, you're just at an earlier development. Every experience you have in the womb (sounds, trauma) will affect your life outside, so it's still you experiencing those things.
• A baby is still a baby the second before it's born. It might be called a fetus but it's still the same thing as it will be a few seconds later.
• Human life begins at conception. The cells are programmed to become a human. It's a human in early development. The cells copying themselves 9 months before you're born is still you. (I'm still for abortion until the human becomes sentient so keep that discussion out of here please)
• If you kill a pregnant woman it should count as a double murder, depending on how far the woman is in the pregnancy. The law is on their side but the law isn't always right.
• There are time limits on abortions for a reason, because we all agree that killing a fetus that is developed enough is wrong. In my opinion this is because it's a human being.
• Similarly to how they argue that you're not the same person as you are as a fetus, I say that you're not the same you as you were a year ago. You've changed in cells and thoughts. I still argue that you were yourself, only at an earlier stage in life. They say that this is not the same thing.

Their arguments don't make any sort of sense to me at all which is why I'm making this thread now. I'm just completely blown away by what they're saying. Even as I'm typing their side of arguments now I can't understand what the fuck they're on about. This is my own family, not some random people I can disregard as being unintelligent, and unfortunately I can't discuss this further with them as it got a little heated when we didn't understand each other and only kept repeating the same points on and on again.

So if anyone else feels like they do and wants to discuss, feel free!

[Fencers]

Define, "you".

[Captain N]

This is going to spin into an abortion war...

/popcorn

Please keep your hands and arms inside the ride vehicle until the thread comes to a full and complete lock....

[Deleted]

Do you need to live to exist? Many things exist but do quite fine without life.

Is a physical presence needed to exist? Many things don't have one but do exist.

[Lightwysh]

You could theoretically say "you" exist the second your mother develops the egg. Now whether "you" make it past X amount of menstrual cycles is the huge gamble. That building block is required for "you" to exist so technically "you" albeit a small portion, did exist.

[Birgwow]

Define, "you".

I'm not entirely sure what they mean but I mean you as in the person you are and all your experiences behind who you are.

Do you need to live to exist? Many things exist but do quite fine without life.

Is a physical presence needed to exist? Many things don't have one but do exist.

Yes, I argued this several times. The table we sat around exists, yet apparently that's not the same thing. Because apparently you don't exist until you're born. I honestly have no clue

[xX 420 Sw4G 3l1te xX]

when u smok weed

[Independent voter]

We're all just part of the same chemical reaction. Your dad poundatates your mom, your granddad poundatated your grandma all the way back to the original primal cell replicating somehow. It's a continuous unbroken line of chemical reactions.

[Fencers]

I'm not entirely sure what they mean but I mean you as in the person you are and all your experiences behind who you are.

So your definition is; the sum total of one's experiences and their sense of self?

What do you mean by, "are" in this context?

Some of the wording being used here is problematic and/or too loose. It seems to imply a vulgar and accepted understanding in usage. But the argument being presented lacks granularity in thought and language.

[May90]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

Pretty much sums it up. As soon as you are able to think, "I exist", you start existing.

[xX 420 Sw4G 3l1te xX]

when u smok weed u develop ur own personalty so its when u are trully you

[Azadina]

I see flaws in both arguments, but more in yours. Maybe because I'm not in the pro-life camp of the view.

[Machismo]

You have always existed. The matter that makes up your cells existed somewhere else long before you were ever a twinkle in your daddy's eye.

[davesignal]

After my morning coffee.

[xX 420 Sw4G 3l1te xX]

after u weed the 1th time

[Birgwow]

You could theoretically say "you" exist the second your mother develops the egg. Now whether "you" make it past X amount of menstrual cycles is the huge gamble. That building block is required for "you" to exist so technically "you" albeit a small portion, did exist.

We're all just part of the same chemical reaction. Your dad poundatates your mom, your granddad poundatated your grandma all the way back to the original primal cell replicating somehow. It's a continuous unbroken line of chemical reactions.

You have always existed. The matter that makes up your cells existed somewhere else long before you were ever a twinkle in your daddy's eye.

Well yes and no. You don't become you until the building blocks are put together. A couple wooden planks from IKEA aren't a table until you put them together.

So your definition is; the sum total of one's experiences and their sense of self?

What do you mean by, "are" in this context?

Some of the wording being used here is problematic and/or too loose. It seems to imply a vulgar and accepted understanding in usage. But the argument being presented lacks granularity in thought and language.

There's no need to get this philosophical about it. I mean that the person you are, writing this, is you. And you were created when your dad's sperm met with your mother's egg. And the time between then and now is simply your history. The history of being you. All those experiences you've experienced were you all along, the one's inside your mother's womb and the experiences outside. The difference between my argument and my family's is that they only count for the experiences outside the womb, but they can't properly explain why (in my opinion).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

Pretty much sums it up. As soon as you are able to think, "I exist", you start existing.

I can agree with this to some degree, though a table still exists if it doesn't think.

I see flaws in both arguments, but more in yours. Maybe because I'm not in the pro-life camp of the view.

Care to elaborate? I'm not in the pro-life camp of the view either in case you missed that

[Azgraal]

Wait...


Wait...


Wait...



NOW!

[Dellis0991]

After my morning coffee.

[Jinpachi]

It's my brother's birthday today so our mother said "It's hard to think how you didn't exist 24 years ago." and I said "Well, he did exist, just not outside your belly.". I obviously get what she meant by that, but this still sparked a long discussion between me and my family about when you start to exist.


Their arguments:


My arguments:



Their arguments don't make any sort of sense to me at all which is why I'm making this thread now. I'm just completely blown away by what they're saying. Even as I'm typing their side of arguments now I can't understand what the fuck they're on about. This is my own family, not some random people I can disregard as being unintelligent, and unfortunately I can't discuss this further with them as it got a little heated when we didn't understand each other and only kept repeating the same points on and on again.

So if anyone else feels like they do and wants to discuss, feel free!

The bed has nothing to do with it's state of existence. Womb or blanket, there's an existence
Now maybe they mean self realization. Hard saying when that happens.

[Ghostpanther]

In my opinion you are right OP and your family is wrong. But some will never accept that and it is best to accept they will not and move on. But your beliefs will define your life.